C-SPAM moderation and Xinjiang: read rules in op

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Raskolnikov38: Mar 3, 2007; We were somewhere around Manila when the drugs began to take hold

just going to copy my post in the communist thread over here

Raskolnikov38 posted:

i dunno whats there to discuss. we all largely agree the PRC isn't treating its uighur citizens as they should be but unless you're dumb enough to believe zenz they're not murdering non-han to feast upon/transplant their organs. stop probing/banning people for pointing this out but do punish them if they're legit arguing that the forced assimilation/cultural repression isn't happening

also its stupid bullshit that one forum has to be policed constantly for anyone denying zenz's made up bullshit while another is denying the existence of photographs released by a government official because it makes their team look bad

# ¿ Mar 24, 2021 20:57

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# ¿ May 10, 2024 16:23

Raskolnikov38: Mar 3, 2007; We were somewhere around Manila when the drugs began to take hold

Crusty Nutsack posted:

So I know and understand that a lot of people are frustrated with other moderation decisions in other subforums. I am sympathetic however we (cspam mods) have no control over those other subforums or mods.

weird how they have lots of control over you!

# ¿ Mar 24, 2021 20:58

Raskolnikov38: Mar 3, 2007; We were somewhere around Manila when the drugs began to take hold

open the report forum and make all mod PMs publically viewable so that we can see just how much the d&d karens and mods control cspam

# ¿ Mar 24, 2021 20:59

Raskolnikov38: Mar 3, 2007; We were somewhere around Manila when the drugs began to take hold

Rime posted:

Genocide is OK here because we are ideologically pure, unlike those filthy capitalists.

There is zero difference between the decades of enforced Sinicization and cultural repression in Xinjiang, and the Residential Schools program of Canada. To claim that what is occurring there is fine and acceptable because China was a communist nation decades ago is insanity. To claim crimes against humanity are an "antidote" to capitalism is reprehensible and disgusting.

Like, FFS, Nat Geo was covering the beginnings of this in the late 1990's when they were cracking down in Kashgar. This is not a hot new CIA psyops campaign.

cultural genocide and genocide are two different, but related concepts. this debate primarily centers around one german loon claiming without evidence that china has set up treblinkas throughout xinjiang which is patently false

# ¿ Mar 24, 2021 21:05

Raskolnikov38: Mar 3, 2007; We were somewhere around Manila when the drugs began to take hold

Dustcat posted:

That could explain some of the vitriol, because I for one thought we were talking about cultural genocide the whole time, not extermination camps.

yeah between the destruction of mosques and cemeteries which there is satellite photo evidence of it should be very hard to claim that china is not suppressing uighur cultural identity

# ¿ Mar 24, 2021 21:13

Raskolnikov38: Mar 3, 2007; We were somewhere around Manila when the drugs began to take hold

also the increasingly prevelant need for speaking mandarin or other chinese dialects over native lanaguges causing a decline in fluent speakers of the latter but i'm not sure where to draw the line on that between government mandate enforcement and the effects of a modern industrial state

# ¿ Mar 24, 2021 21:16

Raskolnikov38: Mar 3, 2007; We were somewhere around Manila when the drugs began to take hold

F Stop Fitzgerald posted:

cmon man this has been completely debunked. in fact the number of mosques in xinjiang has exploded over the past few decades

there is no way that their anti-extremism campaign isnt full of abuses though. people are flawed and lovely the world over and there are likely tons of innocent people getting profiled and targeted due to its heavy handedness. acab, etc

i mean they haven't banned islam but i really can't imagine a good reason to raze religious buildings unless they're in danger of collapse

e: fwiw i believe that number of buildings razed is in the low dozens compared to the western media's claims of *checks google* tens of thousands lol

# ¿ Mar 24, 2021 21:26

Raskolnikov38: Mar 3, 2007; We were somewhere around Manila when the drugs began to take hold

Chomskyan posted:

But how can you tell from such low resolution images? I�ve always been very skeptical of these claims

i mean there are pictures of domed buildings and then several months later theres an empty lot where it was. now if the building was relocated or rebuilt i dunno but my gut instinct would be for the government to not touch religious buildings unless safety issues are at play

# ¿ Mar 24, 2021 21:32

Raskolnikov38: Mar 3, 2007; We were somewhere around Manila when the drugs began to take hold

Kindest Forums User posted:

A good thought experiment is to think about the alternative, if China completely severed from the region. Xinjiang would become its own country and closed off from China with border controls. What would become of the Uyghur population? Would they be able to thrive as the rest of the world develops? Maybe? Would they even be able to retain their original identity and culture, considering the rising influence of radical Islamists in that area? I wonder what Xinjiang would like if the west didn't destabilize the middle east and radicalize a huge portion of muslims.....
In this scenario, where Xinjiag is its own country. what would happen to young people that would want to integrate into the world economy? Wouldn't they have to move to China or the West where no one speaks Uyghur? How would they maintain their culture if they wanted to escape rural poverty (especially as climate change puts immense pressures on the region).

yeah globalized industrialism is driving us to the tower of babel with or without government sanction

# ¿ Mar 24, 2021 21:45

Raskolnikov38: Mar 3, 2007; We were somewhere around Manila when the drugs began to take hold

SpiderHyphenMan posted:

Is Kim Jong Un also the victim of anti-communist lies?

how many times has he "died" because he didn't make enough public appearances

# ¿ Mar 24, 2021 23:59

Raskolnikov38: Mar 3, 2007; We were somewhere around Manila when the drugs began to take hold

Hairy Marionette posted:

Perhaps, but under the control of China people felt the need to set themselves on fire.

China did Maoism once, they can do similar again.

# ¿ Mar 25, 2021 02:30

Raskolnikov38: Mar 3, 2007; We were somewhere around Manila when the drugs began to take hold

cagliostr0 posted:

Free Tibet

I�ll take eight

# ¿ Mar 25, 2021 02:59

Raskolnikov38: Mar 3, 2007; We were somewhere around Manila when the drugs began to take hold

F Stop Fitzgerald posted:

lol the Rguy "genocide denialism" is basically just poo poo that gradenko, brutalisst, ths, myself, etc have posted itt

rguy:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqG8JW0lWuQ

# ¿ Mar 25, 2021 05:44

Raskolnikov38: Mar 3, 2007; We were somewhere around Manila when the drugs began to take hold

Dolphin posted:

no actually the thing you just made up does not have the same value as something based on decades of precedent and thousands of reports

post evidence of china's treblinkas please

# ¿ Mar 25, 2021 18:19

Raskolnikov38: Mar 3, 2007; We were somewhere around Manila when the drugs began to take hold

SpiderHyphenMan posted:

At times it feels less like confusion and more like an intentional rhetorical choice, along the same lines as "actually the United States is responsible for the Holocaust because Hitler got all his ideas from Jim Crow."

oh gently caress off and go write in kamala again. no one disagrees that human right abuses are occurring in xinjiang or that cultural genocide is occurring on some scale. what people are pushing back against are the bullshit claims that china's opened death camps

# ¿ Mar 25, 2021 18:30

Raskolnikov38: Mar 3, 2007; We were somewhere around Manila when the drugs began to take hold

Dolphin posted:

my dude i haven't even gotten into the academic side of this, this has been an issue for a very long time and i would have immediately gone full skeptic on it if i didn't know multiple people who work in the region

you should probably get into your supposed "academic" sources since the non-academic ones are complete poo poo

# ¿ Mar 25, 2021 18:34

Raskolnikov38: Mar 3, 2007; We were somewhere around Manila when the drugs began to take hold

Gringostar posted:

if their cultural identity wasn't repressed or exterminated then no I'm afraid it's not

this isnt to say Japanese internment wasn't morally repugnant and even at the time the camps were labeled as concentration camps but the question is if the camps rose to the definition of genocide which is a targeted ethnic repression/extermination policy

they gunned down anyone that got too close to a fence line and all their land and property was stolen from them

# ¿ Mar 25, 2021 18:42

Raskolnikov38: Mar 3, 2007; We were somewhere around Manila when the drugs began to take hold

Gringostar posted:

if their cultural identity wasn't repressed or exterminated then no I'm afraid it's not

this isnt to say Japanese internment wasn't morally repugnant and even at the time the camps were labeled as concentration camps but the question is if the camps rose to the definition of genocide which is a targeted ethnic repression/extermination policy

whoopsie-doodle

quote:

Of the 110,000 Japanese Americans detained by the United States government during World War II, 30,000 were children.[128] Most were school-age children, so educational facilities were set up in the camps. Allowing them to continue their education, however, did not erase the potential for traumatic experiences during their overall time in the camps.[129] The government had not adequately planned for the camps, and no real budget or plan was set aside for the new camp educational facilities.[130] Camp schoolhouses were crowded and had insufficient materials, books, notebooks, and desks for students. Not only that the education/instruction was all in English, the schools in Japanese internment camps also didn't have any books or supplies to go on as they opened. The state decided to issue a few books only a month after the opening.[131] Wood stoves were used to heat the buildings, and instead of using separate rooms for different kinds of activities only partitions were used to accomplish that. Japanese internment camps also did not have any libraries (and consequently no library books), writing arm chairs or desks, and no science equipment.[132] These 'schoolhouses' were essentially prison blocks that contained few windows. In the Southwest, when temperatures rose and the schoolhouse filled, the rooms would be sweltering and unbearable.[130] Class sizes were immense. At the height of its attendance, the Rohwer Camp of Arkansas reached 2,339, with only 45 certified teachers.[133] The student to teacher ratio in the camps was 48:1 in elementary schools and 35:1 for secondary schools, compared to the national average of 28:1.[134] This was due to a few things. One of them was that there was a general teacher shortage in the US at the moment, and the fact that the teachers were required to live in those poor conditions in the camps themselves.[131] "There was persistent mud or dust, heat, mosquitoes, poor food and living conditions, inadequate instructional supplies, and a half mile or more walk each day just to and from the school block".[135] Despite the triple salary increase in the internment camps, they were still unable to fill in all the needed teacher positions with certified personnel, and so in the end they had to hire non-certified teacher detainees to help out the teachers as assistants.[131]

The rhetorical curriculum of the schools was based mostly on the study of "the democratic ideal and to discover its many implications".[136] English compositions researched at the Jerome and Rohwer camps in Arkansas focused on these 'American ideals', and many of the compositions pertained to the camps. Responses were varied, as schoolchildren of the Topaz camp were patriotic and believed in the war effort, but could not ignore the fact of their incarceration.[137] To build patriotism, the Japanese language was banned in the camps, forcing the children to learn English and then go home and teach their Issei parents.[138]

# ¿ Mar 25, 2021 18:52

Raskolnikov38: Mar 3, 2007; We were somewhere around Manila when the drugs began to take hold

so just to summarize before i gently caress off to make lunch and play video games

things with broad agreement:
human right abuses are occurring in xinjiang perpetuated by the government of the PRC
uighur cultural identity is being corroded by a multitude of forces, some intentional some not
that efforts by the US government to end the human right abuses will only make things worse

things without broad agreement:
the degree of the human right abuses

correct? incorrect?

# ¿ Mar 25, 2021 19:05

Raskolnikov38: Mar 3, 2007; We were somewhere around Manila when the drugs began to take hold

Dolphin posted:

no, i don't want them to do that. I've been fairly consistent in my assertion that there are a ton of reports and allegations that you may doubt the veracity of, but there's a difference between skepticism and outright denial which is what you guys are doing. there was a poster earlier just googling the authors to do a character assassination and go "cia. next." like it's not academic and no you guys don't have research skills, there's nothing logical about this

and you have these skills despite citing sources that explicitly stated they didn�t actually check if anything they published was true or not?

# ¿ Mar 25, 2021 21:37

Raskolnikov38: Mar 3, 2007; We were somewhere around Manila when the drugs began to take hold

like source criticism is �a thing� and a key part of academic research in social sciences

# ¿ Mar 25, 2021 21:37

Raskolnikov38: Mar 3, 2007; We were somewhere around Manila when the drugs began to take hold

F Stop Fitzgerald posted:

we've been indoctrinated to see east asians as putting less value on human life

the best argument against religion is that a higher power did not make westmoreland spontaneously combust when he said this

# ¿ Mar 25, 2021 21:43

Raskolnikov38: Mar 3, 2007; We were somewhere around Manila when the drugs began to take hold

dolphin what was your major field of study out of curiosity

# ¿ Mar 25, 2021 21:50

Raskolnikov38: Mar 3, 2007; We were somewhere around Manila when the drugs began to take hold

F Stop Fitzgerald posted:

lmao now flavius is the genocide denial mod

the system works folks

# ¿ Mar 25, 2021 22:07

Raskolnikov38: Mar 3, 2007; We were somewhere around Manila when the drugs began to take hold

Dolphin posted:

not giving the guy any credit, as I said I don't even know much about zenz but is there a specific reason other than him being a religious idiot that he's blacklisted?

he works for the organization that lists the nazis as victims of communism

# ¿ Mar 25, 2021 22:11

Raskolnikov38: Mar 3, 2007; We were somewhere around Manila when the drugs began to take hold

Herstory Begins Now posted:

So there are internment camps and boarding schools and the chinese government itself is saying it's trying to change the culture of these people.

That sure seems an awful lot like the american or canadian residential school system for natives, which is considered a textbook example of a cultural genocide. I don't see how this is significantly different. Like why do you need to be taking kids and putting them into 'boarding schools'

boarding schools seem to be the general form schools take in the western rural region of china

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boarding_schools_in_China

also looks like in 2001 the government decided to consolidate village schools into boarding schools

# ¿ Mar 25, 2021 23:14

Raskolnikov38: Mar 3, 2007; We were somewhere around Manila when the drugs began to take hold

Herstory Begins Now posted:

yeah that's what I'm specifically wondering about?

if like 1-8% of kids in non-rural areas are in boarding schools nationally, why is the number a lot higher in the region where there is a stated vested interest in changing the culture?

unfortunately my knowledge is only about inner mongolia but there its because the rural people are spread way the gently caress out so its just easier to have kids live in boarding schools than arrange transportation

# ¿ Mar 25, 2021 23:30

Raskolnikov38: Mar 3, 2007; We were somewhere around Manila when the drugs began to take hold

https://fsi-live.s3.us-west-1.amazonaws.com/s3fs-public/health_and_education_outcomes_of_students_in_rural_china.pdf

actually digging into this it seems like the neoliberal school theory of "do more with less money" has infected the PRC as well

# ¿ Mar 25, 2021 23:35

Raskolnikov38: Mar 3, 2007; We were somewhere around Manila when the drugs began to take hold

Dolphin posted:

please no one doxx me but working in northern kenya this used to be the case but after they decentralized their government a lot more schools got built so there's a lot less boarding now so I'm not saying you're wrong but you'd really have to know more details to make that assessment

yeah this seems to be a result of putting costs before education

"lots of tiny local schools are expensive, lets shove everyone into one big school to maximize efficiency"

boy this sure doesn't sound familiar at all

# ¿ Mar 25, 2021 23:37

Raskolnikov38: Mar 3, 2007; We were somewhere around Manila when the drugs began to take hold

i cant wait to see what this admin action is after the problem has already been solved

# ¿ Mar 25, 2021 23:55

Raskolnikov38: Mar 3, 2007; We were somewhere around Manila when the drugs began to take hold

the moral is never tell the same lie twice, god its like you people dont even watch star trek

# ¿ Mar 25, 2021 23:55

Raskolnikov38: Mar 3, 2007; We were somewhere around Manila when the drugs began to take hold

Lostconfused posted:

Except as mentioned, cultural genocide is genocide. The European settlers did horrible things to the people who lived in America. Some of those things are called cultural genocide, so there's an element of white guilt that says whatever is happening over there is just as bad as the things that were done over here.

my understanding is that line of division is that genocide involves killing or creating conditions that hasten death

# ¿ Mar 26, 2021 00:39

Raskolnikov38: Mar 3, 2007; We were somewhere around Manila when the drugs began to take hold

Herstory Begins Now posted:

Given the general concentration of islamic extremists (which typically represent ~.5% or less of the total population of the roughly 1.5 billion muslims) I am deeply skeptical that there are enough of them to be anywhere even remotely proportional to the scale of the effort mounted against them.

correct but that still hasn�t stopped us from setting trillions of dollars on fire to trying to stop them while also giving the saudis more money to spread it

# ¿ Mar 26, 2021 00:43

Raskolnikov38: Mar 3, 2007; We were somewhere around Manila when the drugs began to take hold

Dolphin posted:

how do y'all feel about tiananmen square, forgivable oopsie by a younger ccp or state department fabrication?

as i recall the ccp said the protestors were terrorists

what is even the debate/argument about tianamen square that that one poster keeps keeping getting probated about? that nothing happened in the square and everyone had a very nice day?

# ¿ Mar 26, 2021 01:09

Raskolnikov38: Mar 3, 2007; We were somewhere around Manila when the drugs began to take hold

F Stop Fitzgerald posted:

according to the Reuters correspondent who was there at the time there was in fact no massacre in tianenman square, all the fighting and deaths happened elsewhere around beijing

so quibbling about the location of corpses? sounds like a wonderful use of time

# ¿ Mar 26, 2021 01:17

Raskolnikov38: Mar 3, 2007; We were somewhere around Manila when the drugs began to take hold

we traded with the soviets during the cold war. granted it wasn't a huge amount but trade doesn't automatically mean no cold war

# ¿ Mar 26, 2021 01:35

Raskolnikov38: Mar 3, 2007; We were somewhere around Manila when the drugs began to take hold

THS posted:

its a gradual boil

yeah, the buildup to iraq war 2 began in arguably 1994 and undeniably by 1998

# ¿ Mar 26, 2021 01:46

Raskolnikov38: Mar 3, 2007; We were somewhere around Manila when the drugs began to take hold

iraq war 2 was 10 years of the american media going "oh does saddam have chemicals or doesn't he. its so very suspicious he doesn't let in the weapons inspectors to confirm they dont exist. this means he must have them." then clinton signs the iraq liberation act in '98 saying saddam is a bad person and he's got to go. this builds up until you get "how much will you bomb iraq (little or lots)" as a recurring debate question between bush and gore in 2000 and then bush wins and the rest is hellworld

# ¿ Mar 26, 2021 01:52

Raskolnikov38: Mar 3, 2007; We were somewhere around Manila when the drugs began to take hold

Dolphin posted:

that's literally the buildup to any war at all over "concerns" but it doesn't match the political climate or economics or anything at all otherwise

THS's point, to me at least, is that we're in the bombarding american public with just asking question stage

# ¿ Mar 26, 2021 01:56

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# ¿ May 10, 2024 16:23

Raskolnikov38: Mar 3, 2007; We were somewhere around Manila when the drugs began to take hold

THS posted:

if you get a china approved vaccine lol

is it only sinovac and sinopharm or do they let you in if have sputnik

# ¿ Mar 26, 2021 02:00

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