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commielingus posted:Imagine being an Anarchist when Marxism exists lmao its great. you get to think communism is good but you never have to understand diamat or shed your libertarian individualism. this means you already know everything AND get to scold everyone else for being authoritarian
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Mar 22, 2021 20:33
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F Stop Fitzgerald posted:its great. you get to think communism is good but you never have to understand diamat or shed your libertarian individualism. this means you already know everything AND get to scold everyone else for being authoritarian stalin’s Anarchism or Socialism is the best takedown of anarchism to date imo: https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/stalin/works/1906/12/x01.htm
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Mar 22, 2021 20:43
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Brace said Rojava is a Stalinist state and rad as hell so I don't want to hear about no libertarian anarchism bs
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Mar 22, 2021 21:00
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thotsky posted:Brace said Rojava is a Stalinist state and rad as hell so I don't want to hear about no libertarian anarchism bs You must have misheard him - he said it was a "call-in-ist" state. He "calls in" the US airstrikes, and uncle Sam drops bombs on the Syrian army.
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Mar 22, 2021 21:04
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thotsky posted:Brace said Rojava is a Stalinist state and rad as hell so I don't want to hear about no libertarian anarchism bs from the eurasia thread: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/14683857.2016.1246529 Thus, the Rojava experiment, for all its proclaimed anarchism and grass-roots mobilization, reproduces both the PKK’s Leninist party vanguardism, and its Stalinist personality cult. Other Kurdish political parties are either not allowed to run in local elections or otherwise severely curtailed in their actions and movements. Thus, for all the – justifiable – sympathy it draws from local and foreign leftist activists, the PYD discourse of democratic autonomy, of gender equality and of secular resistance against Islamist forces marks a rather less radical rupture with the Leninist past than might appear at first sight (de Jong 2016). This heavily militarized and highly hierarchical character of regional one-party rule is strongly at odds not only with the PYD’s own propaganda, but also with the enthusiastic and virtually entirely uncritical reports about its alleged efforts at creating a ‘stateless democracy’, or ‘grassroots self-organization’, that may be found among both liberal commentators and leftist activists in the West. Most of those reports ignore, or whitewash, the striking discrepancy between the ideal, ideology or discourse, of stateless democracy and autonomous self-organization and the practical realities of a Leninist vanguard party with a strictly hierarchical organization.
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Mar 22, 2021 21:05
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that guy sounds like he has a bone to pick with rojava but i think the synthesis is that a strictly organized vanguard party is exactly HOW you create grassroots self-organization and horizontal autonomy
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Mar 22, 2021 21:08
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PERPETUAL IDIOT posted:You must have misheard him - he said it was a "call-in-ist" state. He "calls in" the US airstrikes, and uncle Sam drops bombs on the Syrian army. lmao
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Mar 22, 2021 21:09
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has Rojava committed a bunch of atrocities/war crimes or is that just something twitter MLs say so they can do whataboutism in arguments about Stalin's purges
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Mar 22, 2021 21:42
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indigi posted:has Rojava committed a bunch of atrocities/war crimes or is that just something twitter MLs say so they can do whataboutism in arguments about Stalin's purges iirc the shadiest stuff they do is help or at least provide staging ground and stand aside while the west fucks with syria. there's also complaints about the treatment of certain religious minorities
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Mar 22, 2021 21:58
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Ferrinus posted:iirc the shadiest stuff they do is help or at least provide staging ground and stand aside while the west fucks with syria. yeah that poo poo still sucks. I guess they don’t have much choice though
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Mar 22, 2021 22:03
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they do some civilian relocation but like for the actual "you need to get out of here because we're going to be fighting ISIS here within a few days" reasons
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Mar 22, 2021 22:10
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indigi posted:yeah that poo poo still sucks. I guess they don’t have much choice though yeah it's not "good" but far be it from me to backseat drive the lovely compromises socialist states make to survive
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Mar 22, 2021 22:10
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Ferrinus posted:you may have seen me link this before but if not it's a great from-the-ground perspective circa like 1940 The unexpurgated version can be found here: https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.264432/page/n6/mode/1up
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Mar 22, 2021 22:42
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PERPETUAL IDIOT posted:You must have misheard him - he said it was a "call-in-ist" state. He "calls in" the US airstrikes, and uncle Sam drops bombs on the Syrian army. But only when an appropriate kill streak is obtained. Can't be letting chumps with poo poo k:d ratios pick the targets, can we?
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Mar 23, 2021 01:11
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I still have a couple days of chain probes left but i want to honestly reexamine the Xinjiang issue and other things that have been pissing you off afterwards, with your input.
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Mar 23, 2021 01:18
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F Stop Fitzgerald posted:its great. you get to think communism is good but you never have to understand diamat or shed your libertarian individualism. this means you already know everything AND get to scold everyone else for being authoritarian
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Mar 23, 2021 01:20
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Flavius Aetass posted:I still have a couple days of chain probes left but i want to honestly reexamine the Xinjiang issue and other things that have been pissing you off afterwards, with your input. i dunno whats there to discuss. we all largely agree the PRC isn't treating its uighur citizens as they should be but unless you're dumb enough to believe zenz they're not murdering non-han to feast upon/transplant their organs. stop probing/banning people for pointing this out but do punish them if they're legit arguing that the forced assimilation/cultural repression isn't happening
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Mar 23, 2021 01:25
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What’s religious life like in Tibet these days? Seems like as close to a helpful example of what could be in store for Xinjiang as any. Dalai Lama is obviously gone but what’s left of the rest of hierarchy?
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Mar 23, 2021 01:41
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Raskolnikov38 posted:i dunno whats there to discuss. we all largely agree the PRC isn't treating its uighur citizens as they should be but unless you're dumb enough to believe zenz they're not murdering non-han to feast upon/transplant their organs. stop probing/banning people for pointing this out but do punish them if they're legit arguing that the forced assimilation/cultural repression isn't happening yeah i think the most reasonable "line" for the SA forums to have is that these things are subject to political debate (while e.g. whether the holocaust happened is not). the mods don't need to do anything about it unless discourse rises to the level of hate speech now, personally, i think the discourse often DOES rise to the level of hate speech in such places as the gbs china thread, but i understand that the general cultural zeitgeist is sufficiently far from my position that i'm not actually going to get the mods to start probating people for anti-asian racism. i'd just hope that discussing the details and justifications of state repression in foreign countries gets the same free reign as discussing the details and justifications of state repression here in the USA
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Mar 23, 2021 01:41
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You could also, instead of focusing on crafting a "line" which must be upheld by cspam posters and moderators regarding the treatment of ethnic minorities by the People's Republic of China, allow posters to post, and if steam starts coming out of your ears, you can stick your head in whatever toilet/fishbowl/puddle you like to drink out of
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Mar 23, 2021 01:43
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F Stop Fitzgerald posted:its great. you get to think communism is good but you never have to understand diamat or shed your libertarian individualism. this means you already know everything AND get to scold everyone else for being authoritarian 'diamat' is pretty much a tortured interpretation of what hegel and, especially, marx and engels were getting at. if the objection to anarchism from marxists boils down to "they're too lazy to learn a bunch of misunderstood philosophy which ossified into an entire worldview" then anarchists are just going to nod and say "yes, we are too lazy to learn outdated faddish nonsense from a bygone era" i'm a committed marxist and find anarchism to be theoretically lacking to the point that it becomes another form of idealism, but arguments like yours are facile and will only drive the anarchists further from marxism
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Mar 23, 2021 01:45
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the more marx and marx-adjacent stuff i read the more i'm convinced that dialectical materialism is actually of paramount importance to political analysis, but at the same time i'm cringing as i read this line in the "Anarchism or Socialism" piece linked above:joey steel posted:As regards the forms of movement, as regards the fact that according to dialectics, minor, quantitative changes sooner or later lead to major, qualitative changes — this law applies with equal force to the history of nature Mendeleyev's "periodic system of elements" clearly shows how very important in the history of nature is the emergence of qualitative changes out of quantitative changes. The same thing is shown in biology by the theory of neo-Lamarckism, to which neo-Darwinism is yielding place. iosef... do better
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Mar 23, 2021 01:49
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Flavius Aetass posted:I still have a couple days of chain probes left but i want to honestly reexamine the Xinjiang issue and other things that have been pissing you off afterwards, with your input. we’ve already had the discussion it’s up to you to stop acting as an unpaid(?) enforcer of western foreign policy establishment discourse
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Mar 23, 2021 01:50
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thotsky posted:Brace said Rojava is a Stalinist state and rad as hell so I don't want to hear about no libertarian anarchism bs rojava was run on the ideals of ocalan meeting the reality, and therefore adapting itself to the context, of the kurdish situation. idk how to describe ocalan's ideology, mainly because i haven't read anything he's written, but he seems to be neither a libertarian anarchist nor a stalinist. imo, he seems more like murray bookchin than any other theorist, but he's forced to reckon with the material reality of the kurds and therefore fall back on less libertarian means for achieving their ends
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Mar 23, 2021 01:52
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especially considering now that the one cspam mod who could coherently discuss china related issues decided to not be a mod anymore
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Mar 23, 2021 01:52
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THS posted:especially considering now that the one cspam mod who could coherently discuss china related issues decided to not be a mod anymore brutalist mcdonalds quit? edit: just checked and yes this seems to be the case.  to the one good moddouble edit: squizzle is good too b/c they're even handed and have a sense of humor, but the china poo poo is not their beat. bring back brutalist mcDs imo
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Mar 23, 2021 01:53
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THS posted:especially considering now that the one cspam mod who could coherently discuss china related issues decided to not be a mod anymore Finicums Wake posted:brutalist mcdonalds quit?
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Mar 23, 2021 01:53
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free larry and the others, then come for conciliation (which i won't give lmao)
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Mar 23, 2021 01:54
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how can dialectic materialism could ever possibly be described as resulting in an "ossified" worldview?
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Mar 23, 2021 01:57
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also, can the mods just make a new sticky thread for mod feedback, whether about this china issue or otherwise? this is one of the few high signal to noise ratio threads on cspam, and i'd like to keep it on track for talking about marxist poo poo rather than mod drama. is ocalan a stalinist or libertarian anarchist? now this is a question for this thread. mod bullcrap? no thank you! not why i check this thread tbh
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Mar 23, 2021 01:58
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Xaris posted:oh that's too bad, he was the best cspam mod. mostly because he didn't take it very seriously
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Mar 23, 2021 01:59
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F Stop Fitzgerald posted:how can dialectic materialism could ever possibly be described as resulting in an "ossified" worldview? when you poo poo on academics trying to develop it line with what marx and hegel actually wrote (see: ilyenkov) it's pretty obviously no longer an open research program, but a state-backed ideology which cannot be added to or emended
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Mar 23, 2021 02:00
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Finicums Wake posted:also, can the mods just make a new sticky thread for mod feedback, whether about this china issue or otherwise? Self-critique Through Posting is a honored revolutionary socialist tradition
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Mar 23, 2021 02:00
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Finicums Wake posted:'diamat' is pretty much a tortured interpretation of what hegel and, especially, marx and engels were getting at. if the objection to anarchism from marxists boils down to "they're too lazy to learn a bunch of misunderstood philosophy which ossified into an entire worldview" then anarchists are just going to nod and say "yes, we are too lazy to learn outdated faddish nonsense from a bygone era" Louis Pasteur lived 150 years ago, trying to apply his work in our times is just employing ossified outdated faddish nonsense from a bygone era and people are right to neglect it
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Mar 23, 2021 02:04
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OK baizuo posted:Louis Pasteur lived 150 years ago, trying to apply his work in our times is just employing ossified outdated faddish nonsense from a bygone era and people are right to neglect it lmao if you think philosophy and science work the same way. double lmao if you think the marxists in the soviet union achieved the goal of making science and philosophy continuous with each other in a way that their arguments stand the test of time in the same way that scientific theories do. someone like quine got closer to that ideal--of unifying philosophy and the natural sciences--than most marxists, but ultimately failed. i take no position on whether such a unification is possible or not, all i'm doing is observing that the people who have tried such things have all failed. so, i'm saying DiaMat as an official doctrine of how the world is, and how we ought investigate it, is flawed. as marxists, if our response to anarchists is merely "learn the soviet version of marx's dialectical method," whatever the hell that's supposed to mean, then we're not going to convince many anarchists that they're wrong Finicums Wake fucked around with this message at 02:12 on Mar 23, 2021 |
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Mar 23, 2021 02:05
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Xaris posted:oh that's too bad, he was the best cspam mod. mostly because he didn't take it very seriously yeah it’s weird how you aren’t actually destined to be reviled for being a mod if you aren’t thin skinned as hell with an itchy trigger finger
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Mar 23, 2021 02:06
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Xaris posted:oh that's too bad, he was the best cspam mod. mostly because he didn't take it very seriously
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Mar 23, 2021 02:14
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Cool stuff!!! https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/03056244.2020.1837095 quote:
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Mar 23, 2021 02:17
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also i think he did take it seriously, at least on the level of not using buttons to settle weird grudges and petty annoyances. that’s more serious than whatever the gently caress most of them seem to be doing
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Mar 23, 2021 02:17
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THS posted:also i think he did take it seriously, at least on the level of not using buttons to settle weird grudges and petty annoyances. that’s more serious than whatever the gently caress most of them seem to be doing *sniff* you shee that by not taking the moderasion shreiously you are more sherious than those who do. this reversal, i like it
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Mar 23, 2021 02:24
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