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THS posted:I don’t think there is any way to setup a poll of active CSPAM posters that wouldn’t be abused, but anecdotally the active participants of the threads do not have an issue with the topic as it was being discussed, or at least do not consider banning it as being appropriate even if they disagree. If someone from the Trump thread or D&D or GBS can’t handle a discussion of China that doesn’t obsessively manufacture consent for the new cold war with China, they should probably not read the LF or China threads in CSPAM. Just want to add my voice in support of this post. Also Rime way to acknowledge youre the worst kind of poster, i never really minded your posts as some do but the above post(edit; drat new page) is just pure garbage.
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Mar 24, 2021 19:59
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Rime posted:Yeah fam, given my close family members are survivors of a cultural genocide here in ol' canuck land I get a bit touchy when I see people ardently flag-waving in support of Genocide, or hand waving it away as "necessary", or denying that it has been ramping up for over twenty years, because they think doing so is somehow "owning" the west. I dont mind being against it or arguing against them or even calling them out using your own experiences or whatever, not even taking a stance on this, but reflexively pushing the report button because someones perception of something that is currently happening, especially in a forum specifically made to discuss politics, knowing how strong the propaganda is from all sides, is just being a poo poo person.
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Mar 24, 2021 20:32
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SpiderHyphenMan posted:Serious question: are stories about human rights abuses and encroaching totalitarianism in Hong Kong and Tibet also anti-communist propaganda? It kind of is when you consider the history of Hong Kong and how the british forced a parliamentary system onto hong kong which they knew would clash with mainland china as they were leaving, as a final "gently caress you" to China, and the fact that their economic decline is directly linked to western capital moving on from hong kong into Singapore as an asian capital holding place. Not sure of Tibet though. edit; i mean, leaving out the history of why there is trouble brewing and only highlighting the trouble itself in order to enhance the image of China as a tyrannical state is pretty much the textbook definition of propaganda. quote:2 : the spreading of ideas, information, or rumor for the purpose of helping or injuring an institution, a cause, or a person Propaganda doesn't have to be false, it's just has to be spread with a purpose, whether its to harm or support, truth or lie, doesn't matter. They're giving you a small slice of the story because that small slice puts china in a bad light, while if you shared the full story you'd see that everyone involved is an equal rear end, in different manners. fanfic insert has issued a correction as of 23:45 on Mar 24, 2021 |
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Mar 24, 2021 23:41
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Dustcat posted:I don't know what media you read, but here in America, this is exactly what it reads like. And how the hell do you have a cold war with a country that manufactures all of your consumer goods? you start by having one idiot sex pest elected that does a trade war and then have another idiot sex pest continue it
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Mar 24, 2021 23:50
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Dustcat posted:only trump could start a trade war with china ah yes, wall street, famous for not disliking communist states. if u think they dont like the trade war you havnt been watching cnbc and im pretty sure they'd very much like for the chinese state to be completely subservient to them so the goods can be even cheaper
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Mar 24, 2021 23:55
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Hairy Marionette posted:In 2004 there were a few Tibetans willing to tell an American tourist that they saw the Chinese as an occupying force and liked the US because of our support for the Dali Llama. I can’t say how common this opinion was. A railroad was being built at the time and people feared it was going to be a tool of oppression from the Chinese. Thanks! also lol at people not remembering Obamas pivot to asia and the purpose of it, which was to contain china. if not for the arab spring and south & central america stealing their focus the trade war wouldve been kicked off 4-5 years earlier.
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Mar 25, 2021 00:17
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Gringostar posted:i mean, yes? China has guaranteed housing, universal(legally, practically almost universal) healthcare, free education. The current leader of China is a man born to a father which was sent to compulsory labor, yet still managed to work his way up in the party to become it's leader. The Chinese state has reformed itself politically and economically to better correspond with how the people want it to run several times since Mao died. The trade deals they make as a part of the Belt and Road is much more mutually beneficial than any loan ever given from the US or the IMF on behalf of the US. China is starting out from a more humanitarian point than the US has ever been at, even if you include the worst of western media imagines of Xinjiang onto their crime bill. They're not good, they're just not straight up evil to the core like the US is.
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Mar 25, 2021 00:51
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BrainDance posted:This is a good example of the issue. The US government line is bullshit manufactured consent nonsense meant to provoke hostility towards China so they can get away with whatever. What exactly would be obvious from a layover in Beijing? Ive been in China and I saw a total of 4 homeless people with serious mental issues. I've also been in the US and it took as about 15 minutes driving away from the middle class enclave to drive past at least a couple dozen homeless. Guaranteed healthcare is enshrined into law even if it doesnt yet reach everyone everywhere. Is the story of Xi false? Have they not reformed economically and politically in order to quell internal dissatisfaction? Was Yanis Varoufakis wrong when he said he was approached with open arms by the chinese when he wanted to renegotiate their deal but when doing the same with western banks was told that democratic elections must not be allowed to dictate economic policy? What exactly was obviously wrong with the post? If youre going to make that statement at least provide one simple example. Edit; the problem is that even giving the mildest kudos to the chinese for doing rational things most of the industrial world does gets a knee jerk reactions from americans going "that cant be true" because youre so primed to think not a single good thing can possibly happen in china. fanfic insert has issued a correction as of 01:19 on Mar 25, 2021 |
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Mar 25, 2021 01:16
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BrainDance posted:That's a very big exception though, especially the way it was described compared to the reality of Chinese healthcare. I imagine someone describing the ACA as meaning the same for America, and how ridiculous that would sound. It's subsidized to some extent in every province, which is great I guess, but far from accessible given the wages of Chinese people outside Shanghai. I can't think of a province where this is not true, but maybe some of the far western regions have special schemes? Okay so youve done some googling now that you scrolled past my post. The healthcare bit is enshrined in law, its legally your right as a citizen to have access to healthcare. its a goal and they're making progress on it and i even implied it wasnt universal in the first post. the ACA is a completely different thing since it very specifically excludes a whole lot of people. The Chinese literally goes out of their way to make it a basic human right. But its the same issue as the education, its a big country and it takes a while to build things when youve been a colony of foreign states for as long as they were. I mean, how can you seriously look at the ways the US is actively limiting who has access to either of those two, and then look at what china is doing to expand access to it, and still claim the US is somehow better, its mind boggling to me. The stuff on Xi's dad? Imagine youre a kid growing up in america, father is sent to jail and youre raised in extreme poverty, what are the odds you end up as President of America? Absolutely loving zero. fanfic insert has issued a correction as of 01:40 on Mar 25, 2021 |
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Mar 25, 2021 01:37
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Dustcat posted:yeah the US hasn't had revolutions and political purges in a while, most of our imprisoned are there for racist reasons Actually,  since weed was criminalized to crack down on minorities and hippies, anyone in jail related to weed-crimes is a political prisoner as well as racist reasons. So nah youve got that going also.
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Mar 25, 2021 01:44
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Dustcat posted:fair, but although nixon's intent was to crack down on hippies, guess what it immediately turned into pretty sure he mentioned "the blacks" on the tapes, the black panthers was active and hyped at the time.
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Mar 25, 2021 01:47
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I made the edit to late, but he mentions them because of the black panther party is my take, like it wasnt purely racist motive to mention "the blacks", it was them as a political block of power that was the motivation.
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Mar 25, 2021 01:50
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BrainDance posted:I haven't 'done some googling', I live here dude. I have first hand experience with these things, so does my fiancee, her family, everyone I know. Things may be 'enshrined in law' but there is next to no real action, not in any way that actually benefits Chinese people. If anything, shits been getting worse lately. Alright, sorry, entirely my bad. But you inserted yourself into it addressing my post while talking past me(kinda rude), when I was specifically pointing out big things China does way better than the US does to make a point, and you belittled it by saying it'd be obvious from a layover, implying it was idiotic when it very clearly is not. I mean consider the starting point of China/US when Nixon went to China, to use a somewhat arbitrary point in time. What exactly has the US done to improve those services? What has China done? Theres a very clear difference in the mode of improvement and the extent it works. The US has poverty numbers rising using pretty much every metric while China has falling numbers, while the most desperate places might not see as big an improvement it's at least some investments in the future, while Alabama has previously eradicated poverty deceases popping up again. I'm sorry but you all saying "stop comparing states they are all evil" you are so loving wrong. I live in a US client state and our political and economic situation will only get worse as long as we remain in the US sphere, as it has my entire life, while all evidence points to having a whole lot more freedom being in the Chinese sphere(as well as being in the sphere of a state with actual values and not just empty words that everyone brings their own meaning to). If i had the choice tomorrow I'd choose China, at least they're trying.
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Mar 25, 2021 02:03
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Dustcat posted:jesus dude even if i granted you that was "political" and not "racial", holy gently caress look at the drug stops, arrests, and charges of whites vs nonwhites today, which is what I mean by "guess what it turned into" I wasn't arguing against that, I was just saying that even the racist bit has a political starting point, he probably wouldnt have mentioned "the blacks" in the tape if it wasnt for the actual influential political block of the black panthers.
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Mar 25, 2021 02:08
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F Stop Fitzgerald posted:youre definitely gonna get jumped on for this, rip, but you're not wrong. biden, macron, merkel, bolsonaro, trump, etc, etc, they are all who they say they are. they do not hide their values or the horrible things they believe in. why would the Xi and the CPC be different? they dont even have to campaign or anything! It was more meant as a rip on "Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness" which are just completely empty unless you define it, which everyone does on their own, while China has a fairly well established line of socialist values defined over centuries of debate, even if they dont live up to them.
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Mar 25, 2021 02:17
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Dolphin posted:perhaps. we also have no evidence of that. lmao what the gently caress
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Mar 25, 2021 16:40
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Serf posted:sounds bad. i could tell you a dozen stories just like it of refugees being put into ins (now ice) vans and disappearing forever also that bit where federal agents are picking up people from the streets of portland. i mean they reappear(?) later but it still the state kidnapping citizens from the streets in the good ol' US of KKK
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Mar 25, 2021 16:50
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Dolphin posted:buT wHaT aBoUt tHE US this isnt it and you know it. its a demonstration of how empty you are being right now. Post the sources.
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Mar 25, 2021 16:54
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Dolphin posted:Why bother? Literally no way of knowing from looking at that site. They've got information about looking for both paid and unpaid volunteers but im finding no information about their funding. Tried to download a couple of their lists but got File Missing errors so really I can't tell if maybe this is one of those thing that someone wants someone to look at the surface and go "oh this is terrible" when its in fact all just made up, like the NYT linking to chinese articles which are about something completely different from what they're claiming they are. What i've always been taught about evaluating sources is to first find out who is paying for it, so uh, who's paying for these paid volunteers? And im not finding anything proving a genocide, only state oppression, which is not the same thing.
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Mar 25, 2021 17:27
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Junkozeyne posted:The Xinjiang victims database openly admits that their data is not reliable so I don't see how that counts as evidence lol the faq was the ? next to the Donate button lol. https://shahit.biz/funds.php thats the funding page, yeah that totally transparent. why even have a funding page if thats all youre gonna show?
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Mar 25, 2021 17:51
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THS posted:i have never seen anyone even attempt to provide evidence for the Grayzone being funded by Russia. i know where at least part of their funding comes from, me, because i donate to their patreon. they are one of a very few media organizations that are fighting against US state dept narratives Max Blumenthal was once in the same which Putin once farted in so theyre clearly huffing that natural gas.
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Mar 25, 2021 18:30
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Dolphin posted:if jimmy says the grain elevators are on fire and he's lying, you hit him with the beating stick and hope that he doesn't do it again. if he does it again you say "maybe this time it's true" because it would be really bad if the grain all burnt up. And you think none of us has read anything about this before and are just now discovering the issue? lol, you parroting the same sources we've long dismissed as not credible does not make it necessary to run out and inspect the grain silo again.
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Mar 25, 2021 18:35
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Raskolnikov38 posted:oh gently caress off and go write in kamala again. no one disagrees that human right abuses are occurring in xinjiang or that cultural genocide is occurring on some scale. what people are pushing back against are the bullshit claims that china's opened death camps I am actually saying that there is no genocide, cultural or otherwise in Xinjiang. I firmly believe that China is doing counter-terrorism stuff and are going way to heavy handed crossing the line(by a fair bit) into human rights abuses but that is not the same as genocide.
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Mar 25, 2021 18:40
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Dolphin posted:the us is also doing counter-terrorism stuff Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Germany, France etc etc etc are also doing counter-terrorism stuff? whats your point? some do it more heavy handed than others and some stray into human rights abuses and others stray into genocide, like saudi arabia and the us are doing in Yemen.
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Mar 25, 2021 18:45
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Grapplejack posted:A lot of people agree with you that it isn't a 'genocide' but it's designed to homogenize and culturally assimilate a smaller minority, similarly to the reservation school poo poo the US did While also giving grants to preserve the culture?
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Mar 25, 2021 18:46
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Grapplejack posted:The US has an entire government division for this, yeah. So explain how this works in China then, how are they trying to destroy the culture by first giving them decades of grants to standardize their script and language(which is different from the majority Han) only to then decades later turn around to start destroying it while also simultaneously keep giving grants to cultural centers? Are they forcing them to spend the grants on secretly embedding anti-Islam messaging in their textbooks or something? Was giving them exemptions from the 1 child policy also a plan to overpopulate them so they'd all starve or something? I don't understand how this is suppose to destroy the culture, which is what people are claiming the genocide is about.
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Mar 25, 2021 18:53
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Dolphin posted:my point is that "anti-terrorism" is a very popular euphemism for doing unconscionable poo poo You're the one saying we should be looking at every at a case-by-case basis but now you're not onboard with that anymore?
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Mar 25, 2021 18:54
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Dolphin posted:I'm totally onboard with that. may we see the camps and the charges of everyone involved? Yeah we're working on China at the moment, you wanna switch subject?
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Mar 25, 2021 18:56
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Grapplejack posted:The worst part about the japanese camps is that I've been to towns in appalachia that are in worse condition Sure, but theres as far as i can tell no reports of them manipulating textbooks and adding propaganda into them. Theres reports of banning of textbooks for unclear reasons but thats not the same thing you're outlining here. And theres the bit where the NYT or WaPo or whichever propaganda outlet it was used a chinese article to point out forced alcohol consumption when it was in fact their own annual cultural festival which everyone was enjoying, so clearly reports coming from those outlets alleging such things aren't to be taken seriously as they've been caught before telling straight up lies. And it's not that i trust the CCP to any degree, it's that I mistrust western propaganda and see no real reason for China to be doing the things that are alleged.
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Mar 25, 2021 19:09
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Deified Data posted:This has been done already no? Or must they be reporters from Wapo or CNN? Because I have a feleing they have no interest in "clearing up the issue" lol *sniff* yeap, smells like Zyklon B, stings a bit.
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Mar 25, 2021 19:11
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Dolphin posted:you don't see the pattern here? literally any article i post, sight unseen, i can predict the response. here let's try this one quote:Now in political asylum in the United States, he tells me: “My family are all in camps or in prison, if they are still alive.” quote:Tahir Imin, founder of the Uighur Times Agency, based in Washington DC, You don't see the problem with this?
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Mar 25, 2021 19:27
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Admiral Ray posted:The victim of an oppressive regime speaking out against them is extraordinarily common. Are you contending that he is wholesale lying about his past? No I'm saying he set up shop in the most (legally) corrupt city in the world starting up a publication which states quote:
on their about page. The guy is clearly a separatist(not bad in itself) and biased as any other source making it suspicious at best. I'm sure he suffered from the CCP but he's still a propaganda tool, knowingly or not. I don't know of many refugees having the capital to start up news organizations without funding from somewhere else, is what im saying. I'm willing to be proven wrong but you gotta at least admit its suspicious.
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Mar 25, 2021 19:38
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Serf posted:i always think back to that kuwaiti girl who gave that sincere-sounding speech about saddam's stormtroopers going into hospitals and pulling babies out of the incubators... and then none of that turned out to be true This is my entire issue with this. This problem we're having in this thread is born from the fact that the US constantly lies about these things in order to justify their own atrocities, so in my opinion it falls on us to reflexively reject anything coming from the US state or anything affiliated to it until there are independent trustworthy sources, until then it should be viewed as empire doing empire and if we let them do it unopposed we're going to be accomplices in creating a situation much much worse then the one in Xinjiang right now on a much larger scale. One story i learned early on in life about Nazi germany was 2 school girls walking home from school encountering a mob that had surrounded their Jewish neighbors and had forced them clean the pavement with their own toothbrushes. Everyone there was cheering it on until this 10 year old girl spoke up and asked them what the hell was wrong with them and if they had lost their humanity. The crowd immediately dispersed. If we don't oppose them by speaking up we're nothing but accomplices to the next US made atrocity.
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Mar 25, 2021 20:08
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Admiral Ray posted:But how do you define independent trustworthy sources? What does that look like? Because I largely agree with you, but if we can't define what a trustworthy source on this looks like it amounts to us doing the same thing anyway. Being in a Boy who Cried Wolf situation is hosed up, yes, but unlike the story there's more than one person doing that here. I'm not sure, I think it's something you know when you see it, or rather if there is a absence of reasons of distrust. If someone like Abby Martin or Glenn Greenwald, not that they're infallible sources, but that they've made careers out of criticizing the US empire, would make it more trustworthy if they went there and came back saying its genocide, that would likely change my mind cause i've seen them go places to specifically debunk the US empire line. Admiral Ray posted:Everyone involved in international relations is a propaganda tool. I'm not surprised that he would find funding for this in a nation motivated to take down China, but that doesn't make his claims false. I agree that means we need to be careful about what we hear and not accept it uncritically, but this is a fight between a rising power and a declining power, so both are highly motivated to obfuscate the reality on the ground. I'll agree with this almost entirely, except for the last bit. I'd be totally onboard if the claim was human rights abuses, which is what it seems like to me. The thing about crying genocide is that its over the top and smells like its just US empire using the worst word they can think of to justify regime change in China. The US has definitely done and is doing equal stuff, which is why they have to use the specific word "genocide" to wash them of the double standard.
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Mar 25, 2021 20:48
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Dolphin posted:Again, as I stated, I'm not reading these articles. This is an exercise where I test a hypothesis that the response to any article or source will be met with the same strategy of attack the source, dismiss the data, allege conflict of interest. If you keep giving sources with the exact same kind of problematic sourcing what else do you expect? I'm still going to call it a pile of poo poo even if you replace the dog poo poo with cat poo poo vvv this fanfic insert has issued a correction as of 21:02 on Mar 25, 2021 |
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Mar 25, 2021 20:55
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Deified Data posted:I would like to push back a bit against the assertion that China is being accused of "cultural genocide"
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Mar 26, 2021 09:16
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Herstory Begins Now posted:Given the general concentration of islamic extremists (which typically represent ~.5% or less of the total population of the roughly 1.5 billion muslims) I am deeply skeptical that there are enough of them to be anywhere even remotely proportional to the scale of the effort mounted against them. Sorry about replying some 7 pages later but im just catching up. You should look into the numerous straight up terror attacks that has been done in Xinjiang by extremists. It's very clearly been a problem for a long time and something had to be done about it for the safety of civilians living in the region. Chinas response is heavy handed and very much goes to far, but they couldve done literal bread and circuses only and they wouldve been accused of lacing the bread with contraceptives by western media.
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Mar 26, 2021 09:58
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Good Soldier Svejk posted:I mean... yeah. In an ideal world the UN would be sanctioning the US for our human rights abuses. Just a reminder that the US has a law on the books giving authorization to invade the netherlands if any US citizen is ever brought up on charges at the ICC. I dont think the threat of invasion is a real one but that its a law designed to signal to the rest of the western world that "no, we will not do as you ask but you better do as we tell". Its legislative terrorism. F Stop Fitzgerald posted:the west reported on nearly every terror attack too but just described it as "chinese knife attack" with no discernable motives. the posters in gbs china thread probably remember them yeah thats how i remember it and how my skepticism towards the genocide allegations started. I've only ever been confirmed that they're extremely fishy. Back then it looked like the west was trying to paint china as a failed state with rampant violence when reporting on them and even back then it made me suspect US state department sponsoring extremist group just like they've done in every state where they don't approve of the current government. fanfic insert has issued a correction as of 10:34 on Mar 26, 2021 |
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Mar 26, 2021 10:31
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Throatwarbler posted:Hey guys as a former resident of the XUAR and one with close family ties to the region, Hey, I just thought of something and I think you might be the best(only?) person here that could meaningfully answer it. Only quoted you to maybe make you see my questions easier. Ive seen people claim(with official looking documents to back it up) that there are grants which Muslims in China can take advantage of to go on the Hajj, my questions are: is this true, and if so, is it something people do take advantage of or is it dismissed because because of difficulties to obtain it? And also is going on Hajj something Uyghurs generally care about?
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Mar 26, 2021 11:15
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