Flavius Aetass posted:

I agree that the mods should be taking a looser moderation role in this. I think I was coming down too hard and hamfisted before.

I'm not sure I agree that the rising tensions and sinophobia are really relevant here though. I think C-SPAM posters can separate criticism of China's government from anti-Chinese prejudice or a desire for intervention.

Raskolnikov38 posted:

yeah between the destruction of mosques and cemeteries which there is satellite photo evidence of it should be very hard to claim that china is not suppressing uighur cultural identity

Atrocious Joe posted:

this post reveals the next level of the Xinjiang discussion, which is debating Islamic theology.

quote:

Dilxat Raxit, spokesman for the exiled group the World Uyghur Congress, condemned the event.

“This is an open provocation to the Islamic faith,” he said in an emailed statement.

SpiderHyphenMan posted:

The attempted murder of the Vice President and the large majority of Congress is, in fact, an attempted coup.

SpiderHyphenMan posted:

Is Kim Jong Un also the victim of anti-communist lies?

THS posted:

BrainDance posted:

This is a good example of the issue. The US government line is bullshit manufactured consent nonsense meant to provoke hostility towards China so they can get away with whatever.

But, so is what's coming out of China, just in the other way. Like half of this post is so insanely untrue about China, so clearly so that I think you could figure it out from a layover in Beijing. But it's a lot more effective on C-Spam because you can't really expect most of an English speaking forum to be in China or something.

We should probably be critical of US and any other state backed reporting, entirely, on everything, and probably mod with that in mind. It makes sense to me for that to be the right way to do things in a leftist forum.

BrainDance posted:

That's a very big exception though, especially the way it was described compared to the reality of Chinese healthcare. I imagine someone describing the ACA as meaning the same for America, and how ridiculous that would sound. It's subsidized to some extent in every province, which is great I guess, but far from accessible given the wages of Chinese people outside Shanghai. I can't think of a province where this is not true, but maybe some of the far western regions have special schemes?

Atrocious Joe posted:

That's a Buddhist monk protesting what he saw as persecution by the Catholic leadership of South Vietnam.

fanfic insert posted:

(as well as being in the sphere of a state with actual values and not just empty words that everyone brings their own meaning to).

Raskolnikov38 posted:

rguy:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqG8JW0lWuQ

Nix Panicus posted:

Guyovitch took it a step beyond being skeptical the Chinese were filling the hillsides with bodies and insisted everything was fine, everyone actually loved it in their new luxury condos, they were just out of frame, smiling. They did the same with any other criticisms of communist countries. Nobody was ever forcibly relocated or purged, they had all just decided to pack their bags and get some fresh air in the countryside and didn't leave a forwarding address

THS posted:

well you dont want to be called a genocide denier. get on the china-condemner bus with everyone else. if you’re proven wrong later, whatever, you can jump on the next narrative designed to make the enemies of the US into the great nazi evil which must be confronted with sanctions and more military spending. will that escalate into a war? maybe! i promise to join the anti-war protests after supporting each and every overblown justification and state dept narrative along the way

gradenko_2000 posted:

love too be a China watcher

Junkozeyne posted:

The point is that he used a completely wrong statistic to arrive at his conclusion without bothering to do his own research. By that methodology why not claim ~25million Uighurs are in camps since as everyone knows China puts Uighurs in camps and there are that many Uighurs in Xinjiang.

Dolphin posted:

https://www.nchrd.org/2018/08/china-massive-numbers-of-uyghurs-other-ethnic-minorities-forced-into-re-education-programs/

Dolphin posted:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...s-idUSKBN1KV1SU

Are we also throwing out this report from the UN human rights panel?

quote:

The allegations came from multiple sources, including activist group Chinese Human Rights Defenders, which said in a report last month that 21 percent of all arrests recorded in China in 2017 were in Xinjiang.

Dolphin posted:

this whole thing could easily be cleared up by letting reporters tour the facilities. I'm sure it's just a big misunderstanding.

AnimeIsTrash posted:

As someone who consumes media, especially if you are a leftist you have to be mindful of the biases that are coming from media. We've seen time and time again, western media manufacture consent for American imperialism. You should be dubious of it by now.

People keep on pointing out the sources because it's very telling that all roads lead to the same end source. A born again evangelical who believes that god has chosen him and the US to destroy the CPC, doesn't speak a lick of Chinese, and is part of a "scholar" of the Victims of Communism foundation. The same foundation that wanted to mark all nazi deaths in ww2 and coronavirus deaths as victims of communism. How on earth can you trust someone like that?

Dolphin posted:

no, i don't want them to do that. I've been fairly consistent in my assertion that there are a ton of reports and allegations that you may doubt the veracity of, but there's a difference between skepticism and outright denial which is what you guys are doing. there was a poster earlier just googling the authors to do a character assassination and go "cia. next." like it's not academic and no you guys don't have research skills, there's nothing logical about this

Herstory Begins Now posted:

So there are internment camps and boarding schools and the chinese government itself is saying it's trying to change the culture of these people.

That sure seems an awful lot like the american or canadian residential school system for natives, which is considered a textbook example of a cultural genocide. I don't see how this is significantly different. Like why do you need to be taking kids and putting them into 'boarding schools'

OK baizuo posted:

Cya all on bread & roses

Ferrinus posted:

I'm told that bread & roses summarily banned a very informative Chinese poster for having the wrong opinion on Xinjiang.

Herstory Begins Now posted:

It might be worthwhile to look up the main definitions used for genocide because you very emphatically do not need a literal holocaust-type extermination system to be a genocide by every major definition. Considering china itself has officially acknowleded that they're trying to stamp out uighur culture and forcibly assimilate them via re-education and occupational training, idk how you dispute that when that's what china is doing according to their own official account of the purposes of the camps meets the definition of genocide.

Like that's before even touching foreign sources or anything else, the official story that they're choosing to push for what they're doing is already horrifying.

Herstory Begins Now posted:

Mentioning that they are engaging in collective punishment does not really help your case here

Baykin posted:

I think this is honestly the root of the whole issue. I also don't have a clue what to do about such a thing, but thankfully I'm just some dweeb on a forum. Assuming we take China at their word of wanting to help this population remove itself from those issues in the first place, how does that actually take place? I absolutely don't like how it sounds its being handled, but are there historical examples of other tactics working? Asking because I'm truly curious, even though I am in general coming down more on China's side than not.

Herstory Begins Now posted:

bunches of innocent people getting swept up merely for having some kind of suspected association to someone assumed to be guilty is definitionally collective punishment though

Raskolnikov38 posted:

what is even the debate/argument about tianamen square that that one poster keeps keeping getting probated about? that nothing happened in the square and everyone had a very nice day?

Raskolnikov38 posted:

so quibbling about the location of corpses? sounds like a wonderful use of time