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Is the purpose of the thread to factually determine whether or not China is committing genocide? Because I think all we can do is quote Internet sources at each other, unless we want to send a delegation to Xinjiang to see if there's any genocide going on, and China is like sure guys come right in.
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Mar 24, 2021 19:10
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Raskolnikov38 posted:cultural genocide and genocide are two different, but related concepts. this debate primarily centers around one german loon claiming without evidence that china has set up treblinkas throughout xinjiang which is patently false That could explain some of the vitriol, because I for one thought we were talking about cultural genocide the whole time, not extermination camps.
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Mar 24, 2021 21:12
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Kindest Forums User posted:Going by your train of thought, China's war on poverty is an enormous colonial project. Come to think of it, all of china is being genocided. You're not improving your case, lol.
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Mar 24, 2021 22:50
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Seriously, when a neighboring/surrounding power absorbs an ethnic group, it's not gonna be pretty no matter what and regardless of the philosophies of the absorbing power, just don't pretend that they're doing it for the benefit of the group being absorbed.
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Mar 24, 2021 22:52
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Kindest Forums User posted:Yeah, I'm not saying that all. I 100% agree with you. It's not pretty. I'm just wondering what the alternatives are to urbanization into the Chinese economy. Everyone says its bad... But what are the alternatives? I've been following this thread from the start and begun half a dozen posts and always given up on them halfway, because I don't know enough, and this is another one of those posts, but it's never a matter of doing whatever's happening now vs. complete withdrawal. Forcing education to be in the occupying power's language rather than the native one is a pretty big cultural genocide thing.
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Mar 24, 2021 23:07
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THS posted:to draw a comparison to another axe i like to grind, the use of the term genocide is like the use of the term “coup” for 1/6. if one truly believes that the US was inches away from a fascist coup, then it is easier to then justify repressive measures, patriot act 2, and social media censorship in favor of democrats - which is why the coup rhetoric has been pushed so hard by democratic leadership - it helps them gain power and shores up their base. it also helps distract from their internal problems and dissatisfaction from progressive factions within their own party the 1/6 assault absolutely was a coup attempt, just a very poorly organized one, but the odds of it succeeding weren't zero and social media censorship "in favor of the democrats" is never going to happen and is a weird thing to even think about, but if it did happen, it would involve slapping twitter disclaimers on fake news and deleting fake accounts, the way twitter finally dealt with trump when @jack was done with him similarly, the xinjiang genocide is of the sort that's easily tolerated and practiced by western countries too, including of course the US, and the US isn't going to arm dissidents in the country that manufactures all of its consumer goods the anti-china propaganda from the west is just the usual dominionist and other conservative idiots, and the MIC looking for more funding, and of course as you say the need to deflect from the US's internal problems, which are its only real problems right now, other than global climate change. i really don't think it'll turn into a shooting war because even the propagandists understand that's not the aim, unless it goes on for 20 years in which case of course we've got a case of the koolaid drinkers mixing the koolaid again
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Mar 24, 2021 23:33
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THS posted:it’s amazing to look at the extreme increase in focus on china in the last few years, the last year, hell the last month, and say something like it’s the “usual dominionist and other conservative idiots, and the MIC looking for more funding” - it’s funny as hell to completely overstate a fake thing: the chance of a successful coup on 1/6, while ignoring a very observable real thing: a massive rise in media stories and western anti-china rhetoric to manufacture a new cold war with china I don't know what media you read, but here in America, this is exactly what it reads like. And how the hell do you have a cold war with a country that manufactures all of your consumer goods?
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Mar 24, 2021 23:47
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fanfic insert posted:you start by having one idiot sex pest elected that does a trade war and then have another idiot sex pest continue it only trump could start a trade war with china biden's a senile rubber stamp for wall street
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Mar 24, 2021 23:51
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Nobody here has denied that the rhetoric is ramping up. It feels like the tone of the argument in this thread has gone from "there's no genocide" to "ohh you mean CULTURAL genocide" to "well it's bad to talk about it because it might lead to war between the US and China." But I assume that's just us working through our different assumptions and motivations and assumptions of each others' motivations.
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Mar 25, 2021 00:51
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SpiderHyphenMan posted:I remember in 2012 when Obama called China the greatest geopolitical foe the United States has and that Mitt Romney was full of poo poo to say that he'd be tough on China. Everyone clapped. Americans never perceived China as an ally or even a neutral entity. and of course this was correct even then, i mean "china will take over the world" is not just antichinese propaganda, it's also now a reasonable assessment of the likely shift in global power in the 21st century, as america's elites grift themselves into oblivion through financializing and offshoring every real asset in america
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Mar 25, 2021 01:14
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Hairy Marionette posted:The US isn’t evil to the core. We’re dominated by racists, but there have been rare occasions of us approaching our ideals. And they are good ideals. This is the strongest defense I can mount of the USA. Your central thesis, that China is less evil than the US is born out by history. arguing over who is "more evil" is pointless because you'll never agree on a metric, and doing it with countries, which are not actors with agency, is even sillier
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Mar 25, 2021 01:16
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fanfic insert posted:The stuff on Xi's dad? Imagine youre a kid growing up in america, father is sent to jail and youre raised in extreme poverty, what are the odds you end up as President of America? Absolutely loving zero. yeah the US hasn't had revolutions and political purges in a while, most of our imprisoned are there for racist reasons
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Mar 25, 2021 01:41
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fanfic insert posted:Actually, fair, but although nixon's intent was to crack down on hippies, guess what it immediately turned into
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Mar 25, 2021 01:45
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fanfic insert posted:pretty sure he mentioned "the blacks" on the tapes ok?
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Mar 25, 2021 01:48
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fanfic insert posted:I made the edit to late, but he mentions them because of the black panther party is my take, like it wasnt purely racist motive to mention "the blacks", it was them as a political block of power that was the motivation. jesus dude even if i granted you that was "political" and not "racial", holy gently caress look at the drug stops, arrests, and charges of whites vs nonwhites today, which is what I mean by "guess what it turned into"
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Mar 25, 2021 01:52
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fanfic insert posted:I wasn't arguing against that, I was just saying that even the racist bit has a political starting point, he probably wouldnt have mentioned "the blacks" in the tape if it wasnt for the actual influential political block of the black panthers. i'm just gonna leave that at a  as you did
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Mar 25, 2021 02:11
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commielingus posted:Amazing how people think indoctrination = genocide Indoctrination is cultural genocide when it's done by an occupying force against the occupied people's will, in order to alter their culture. I'm taking care to say "cultural genocide" now because that's been a big point of confusion that angries up people's blood. I think you're talking about cultural genocide too, here, because of course nobody thinks getting put in a boarding school is the same as getting taken to an extermination camp.
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Mar 26, 2021 00:30
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Lostconfused posted:Except as mentioned, cultural genocide is genocide. The European settlers did horrible things to the people who lived in America. Some of those things are called cultural genocide, so there's an element of white guilt that says whatever is happening over there is just as bad as the things that were done over here. I wish you and others would stop trying to imply that anybody here is denouncing cultural genocide in china out of "white guilt" or out of a need to deflect from the atrocities committed by the United States in the past or ongoing today. We're not.
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Mar 26, 2021 00:37
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Lostconfused posted:I am not implying it and I am not deflecting. How else would one read this though: quote:there's an element of white guilt that says whatever is happening over there is just as bad as the things that were done over here. I think your "I am not deflecting" must be a language barrier issue because obviously I wasn't accusing you of deflecting from the atrocities committed by the United States.
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Mar 26, 2021 00:46
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gradenko_2000 posted:It's not about whether "cultural genocide" is or isn't a thing This is why it might be helpful to just start explicitly saying "cultural genocide" from now on, to keep people from flipping out, thinking you're getting your information from zenz or whatever memes they post on Parler these days.
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Mar 26, 2021 00:53
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Deified Data posted:The reason I brought that up is the two definitions can't be decoupled. The reason we're talking about Xinjiang right now is because this is a thread dedicated to deciding whether posters who disagree with western narratives on Xinjiang are essentially Nazis or not. We would not be discussing it if all China was being accused of was cultural chauvinism. We wouldn't be discussing it if we were just trying to decide if their treatment of Uyghurs was problematic or not. The accusation can't be "just" one of those, it's coupled with the dominant narrative, that China is physically exterminating a minority population. We both know that to concede on one is to concede to the other, and the narrative was designed that way intentionally. This is not true. There's a strong thread consensus that there's clearly cultural genocide going on, but no physical extermination.
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Mar 26, 2021 00:58
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THS posted:this is not my experience with nearly any discussion outside of cspam. you are assuming nuance in the popular discourse. there is little to none Yes but this is a cspam thread discussing moderation in cspam. Have a little faith in your fellow posters, please.
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Mar 26, 2021 01:02
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THS posted:i feel like discussing the media narrative, the language used, and the “manufacturing consent” occurring within our culture and social media. is that a problem? it seems like it falls under the topic of the thread Certainly not, but just like I have decided to spell out "cultural genocide" from now on when that's what I mean, I think everyone should spell out "physical genocide" when they mean things like death camps, to avoid confusing the issue. e: I hope that doesn't come out as flippant because it's both a core issue that's causing this to be such a heated issue, and a convenient conflation point for propagandists on both sides.
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Mar 26, 2021 01:09
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Deified Data posted:I would wager "I don't know wtf is going on in Xinjiang" is probably the thread consensus I'm talking about posts I'm reading from both sides that seem to be informed on the issue.
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Mar 26, 2021 01:22
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THS posted:the contention is how the gradations are exploited to gear the population for the mindset of China = Nazi Germany when the population having their brains massaged over this are a population actually living under the empire most directly comparable to the nazis 1. Nobody on cspam is going to think china = nazi germany. You're arguing in the wrong forum if that's your concern. 2. China manufactures most of everything US consumers buy, so there's clearly not going to be a cold war in at least the next decade. 3. Trying to use the threat of a cold war between the United States and China, started by the United States, as a cudgel to shut down discussion of the cultural genocide in Xinjiang is just loving lol.
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Mar 26, 2021 01:27
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THS posted:why cant you get over that im not just talking about cspam but am discussing wider perceptions in society. you seem to have real difficulty with this no matter how many ways i explain it to you Because this thread is about cspam moderation. You keep posting long rambling screeds that don't apply to the topic at hand.
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Mar 26, 2021 01:30
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Deified Data posted:This is a very short-sighted belief What's your view, do you think China will cut off supplies to the US in the near future? Not really within the topic of the thread. Also please go post in the doomsday ec thread, you'll freak those guys out 
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Mar 26, 2021 01:32
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Varinn posted:https://www.washingtonpost.com/us-policy/2021/03/10/president-bidens-second-big-bill-may-be-china-package-pushed-by-top-senate-democrat/ It's a good idea, manufacturing should happen locally, and offshoring basic manufacturing is how you get fragile kleptocracies like the United States.
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Mar 26, 2021 01:36
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THS posted:i am going to continue discussing how people interpret narratives around Xinjiang, public perceptions, media, media consumers, different platforms, etc, Well, to help me not miss points, please type out "cultural genocide" and "physical genocide" whenever you talk about genocide, so we'll know whether you're denouncing CSPAM or the zenz crowd. The latter doesn't post here.
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Mar 26, 2021 01:40
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Varinn posted:Yes, but increasingly aggressive foreign policy towards China, a reliance on poo poo like Zenz to push a specific point, combined with support to lessen our reliance on goods from china I don't loving know, but what the hell does that have to do with the fact that there's cultural genocide going on in xinjiang though
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Mar 26, 2021 01:41
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THS posted:i thought this thread was only about moderation I would like to issue a challenge somebody not THS tell me what the gently caress THS is talking about if it makes sense that i'm missing, flavius please give me a week off
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Mar 26, 2021 01:43
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Varinn posted:people have posted zenz's work in this thread lmao wtf All the more reason for you to specify whether you mean no "cultural genocide" is taking place vs no "physical genocide" is taking place.
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Mar 26, 2021 01:50
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