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Rust Martialis posted:You and I have *no* idea what happened before the video starts. Why Bryant was holding the knife for example - did the adult male (the "kicker" in the video) hand it to her moments before as some thought? Had the girl who fell on the ground been threatening her and Bryant and the adult were chasing her out of the house as the video started? Maybe she was fully justified in defending herself with it, as the two girls had assaulted her. Maybe Bryant was the one mentioned in the 911 call as threatening to stab people? At least some of these questions are clarified in the security video. The girl in pink and the girl who gets knocked down are both outside, standing in the driveway. Ma'khia comes out of the house (? Or backyard?) and walks down the driveway towards them. At that point there is a bunch of yelling and then Ma'Khia goes at the first girl and knocks her down and the whole thing starts. We do not know what happened before and who instigated what, but it is clear that at the start of the video, Ma'Khia is not close to the two other girls she attacks (the girl who gets knocked over even starts to back away as Ma'Khia comes out) and the man who kicks her in the head is across the street. As you say, who knows what kind of threats were being made or what our opinions would be if the videos all started 30 seconds earlier. Maybe there is something I'm missing but it does not seem like Ma'khia was in imminent danger from the two girls she attacked at the start of the video.
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Apr 26, 2021 13:48
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Rust Martialis posted:The options: There’s an awful lot of posters here who have utterly bizarre notions of what can and can’t be done by humans to restrain other humans, who then post examples of entirely different scenarios. The real shame of it all is it is these good meaning but utterly clueless individuals then get used as examples as to why criticising the police is wrong. It’s so easy for boot lickers or police unions to then use the idiotic ideas put forward to discredit all criticism of police by highlighting the complete nonsense spouted to try and cover for entirely legitimate situations where police officers have behaved appallingly. There’s going to be a cop massively over reacting and killing another black child completely unfairly and they will use the people who are claiming that they don’t think knives are dangerous and that kids should knife fight all the time without intervention, or that cops should let murderers kill people because it’s better optics than cops killing murderers as examples of criticism rather than the vast majority of cases where there’s legitimate criticism to be had.
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Apr 26, 2021 14:13
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willie_dee posted:There’s an awful lot of posters here who have utterly bizarre notions of what can and can’t be done by humans to restrain other humans, who then post examples of entirely different scenarios. you can just say you like it when cops kill black kids, you know (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 26, 2021 14:18
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TheDisreputableDog posted:Who in their right mind would want this bizarre calculus applied to their own child or someone they care about seconds away from being stabbed. I would! Myself, my family, everyone! It's not actually bizarre calculus if you start from a place that wants to see as little harm done as possible. I don't do the bizarre calculus of subtracting the violence of Reardon and valuing Ma'Khia's life at 0. I think it may help this situation if you don't assume you're on the 'good' or 'right' side of the deadly violence, perhaps there isn't one. It's taken for granted that Ma'Khia's life is less valuable than the other woman's. I want whoever responds to situations like that to feel a responsibility to preserve life. Not whoever they perceive as the 'victim' in the few seconds they are there but the lives of everyone, supposed 'perpetrator ' included. Shooting someone 4 times in the back is much much much more likely to result in permanent injury or death than stabbing, especially if medical attention is available and the officers on scene work to stop the violence instead of adding to it. The woman in pink may have died, it's pretty unlikely though, even if she did get stabbed in the neck. Even if she were stabbed multiple times. Lots of folks making the jump from potentially stabbed straight to killed via knife and it's just not even close to the same thing. This is not to say knives aren't dangerous, but to weight them properly in their danger. People are also just ignoring the threat to the lady in pinks life by Reardon shooting at Ma'Khia. One sudden movement or twitch and Reardon shoots both of them. If shooting someone in the leg or warning shots are bad policy how is firing into a melee not? I'm pretty doubtful Reardon(let alone most cops) could reliably accurately land those shots. We should reduce the amount of lethal force used by police by abolishing them. An interim measure would be them not carrying guns anywhere. poo poo they can keep the guns just no bullets.
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Apr 26, 2021 14:26
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willie_dee posted:
Oh yes surely THIS incident will be the final crack in the dam that's been preventing cops (or random strangers that stalk a kid from home) from getting away with killing black children! Rust Martialis posted:Moral or legal justification? I doubt you mean the latter, it is a rather cut and dried use of deadly force in self-defense, in this case preventing grievous bodily harm to a third party. Morally justified? I have no idea and neither, I wager, do you I specifically said its not really worth trying to justify a shooting and used a simple question you can ask to determine if the cops showing up was a good thing. Rust Martialis posted:You and I have *no* idea what happened before the video starts. Why Bryant was holding the knife for example - did the adult male (the "kicker" in the video) hand it to her moments before as some thought? Had the girl who fell on the ground been threatening her and Bryant and the adult were chasing her out of the house as the video started? Maybe she was fully justified in defending herself with it, as the two girls had assaulted her. Maybe Bryant was the one mentioned in the 911 call as threatening to stab people? I guess I do have facts that you dont since the call went out ten minutes before Reardon arrives and mentions two grown girls trying to stab people. Since the family has claim Bryant was the one to call police and this is corroborated by footage showing Bryant was clearly fighting with two people Im not sure how you can claim that actually maybe someone called the cops on Bryant. Zero other people have claimed to be the caller. Rust Martialis posted:You speculated it would be easy ("totally possible") for Reardon to determine in the middle of a melee lasting 3-5 seconds that one person was 15 and the other 20. Nice pretzel. No I was making fun of your weird assertion that identifying people based on age was impossible unless you knew them personally. As I said it's totally irrelevant to the original hypothetical that I guess you missed. Wastid posted:
It's also worth noting that the police would change exactly nothing in their defense of the shooting had Reardon missed and killed the other or hell both of them. Sedisp fucked around with this message at 14:39 on Apr 26, 2021 |
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Apr 26, 2021 14:34
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Sedisp posted:I guess I do have facts that you dont since the call went out ten minutes before Reardon arrives and mentions two grown girls trying to stab people. Since I see have seen this mentioned more than once ITT, lets pretend that this occurred. I think it's safe to say Bryant was not in active danger or being actively attacked by those 2 women (or any other bystanders) in the entirety of the video. So what difference does this make? Bryant trying to stab those two people was not in self defense at this point. It could have been in revenge, if they were attacking her before the video started. Or it could have been for another reason if it ended up being someone else calling 911. But Bryant was not in immediate danger, so I don't see how you can use this as justification for why Bryant stabbing other people might not be as bad as it appears (as you seem to be implying).
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Apr 26, 2021 14:44
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willie_dee posted:There’s an awful lot of posters here who have utterly bizarre notions of what can and can’t be done by humans to restrain other humans, who then post examples of entirely different scenarios. Its the same issue as the warning shot comparisons of other entirely different situations. Some people can base their opinions on TV rather than real life. willie_dee posted:The real shame of it all is it is these good meaning but utterly clueless individuals then get used as examples as to why criticising the police is wrong. It’s so easy for boot lickers or police unions to then use the idiotic ideas put forward to discredit all criticism of police by highlighting the complete nonsense spouted to try and cover for entirely legitimate situations where police officers have behaved appallingly. This is the issue here. The types looking to portray all the genuine well meant outrage over murderous overly violent cops as dishonest or contrived want examples of exactly that to discredit any criticism of cops. Providing them with what they want doesn't help anyone except the Chauvin's of the world. Trying to root out people you regard as thought criminals and yell at them as a matter of faith is something people are prone to do, it never helps though. Especially when you end up yelling at the wrong people.
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Apr 26, 2021 14:54
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Morningwoodpecker posted:Trying to root out people you regard as thought criminals and yell at them as a matter of faith is something people are prone to do, it never helps though. Especially when you end up yelling at the wrong people. What does then, in your opinion?
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Apr 26, 2021 14:56
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Sedisp posted:Oh yes surely THIS incident will be the final crack in the dam that's been preventing cops (or random strangers that stalk a kid from home) from getting away with killing black children! What I’m saying is it’s idiots like the people in this thread commenting on physical restraint techniques and combat who have never ever had to get physical in their life with someone, and if they had to, would be utterly incompetent beyond belief like soggy toilet paper, who provide cover and help cops get away with killing people. If I can show someone that when you add 2+2 and get 7, but I get 4, no ones going to believe you when more complicated stuff comes out because I can point out that you can’t even do basic math so you should just trust me when I say what the answer is. Anyone who thinks the officer did wrong loses all credibility, because he objectively didn’t. It’s easy to paint someone as a moron when they are claiming knife attacks aren’t likely to end in death so should be allowed to happen like the guy a few posts up.
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Apr 26, 2021 15:00
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Sedisp posted:iwas making fun of your weird assertion that identifying people based on age was impossible unless you knew them personally. "Reardon would have had no way to know the ages of the people in front of him unless he knew them personally." You're the one making the assertion that Reardon could easily discern the ages of two young people in the middle of a brawl lasting at most 3-5 seconds. I'm not sure what you were trying to achieve misquoting me in any event?
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Apr 26, 2021 15:05
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Josef bugman posted:What does then, in your opinion? Direct your anger where it's useful towards the organizations individuals and incidents where the cops clearly went overboard and people are refusing to do anything about it. There's a tragically huge range of them to pick from. Support police reforms as the alternative is frankly a complete fantasy. Vote for people who are pro gun control and police reform.
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Apr 26, 2021 15:39
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Wastid posted:It's taken for granted that Ma'Khia's life is less valuable than the other woman's. Well, yes. When the attacker's safety is at odds with the victim's, I prioritize the victim's. Including if the risk to the attacker's life is greater.
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Apr 26, 2021 16:03
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Wastid posted:It's taken for granted that Ma'Khia's life is less valuable than the other woman's. I strenuously disagree. They're both just as valuable as yours or mine or anyone's.
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Apr 26, 2021 16:16
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vessbot posted:Well, yes. When the attacker's safety is at odds with the victim's, I prioritize the victim's. Including if the risk to the attacker's life is greater. This poster isn’t really worth replying to as a mod pointed out in the other thread. Main Paineframe posted:I would like to say two things: As they seem to think that getting stabbed multiple times in the neck isn’t likely to result in death. Wastid posted:The woman in pink may have died, it's pretty unlikely though, even if she did get stabbed in the neck. Even if she were stabbed multiple times. Lots of folks making the jump from potentially stabbed straight to killed via knife and it's just not even close to the same thing. This is not to say knives aren't dangerous, but to weight them properly in their danger. willie_dee fucked around with this message at 16:26 on Apr 26, 2021 |
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Apr 26, 2021 16:21
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Wastid posted:We should reduce the amount of lethal force used by police by abolishing them. An interim measure would be them not carrying guns anywhere. poo poo they can keep the guns just no bullets. Any realistic ideas that wouldn't be reversed within the first week following a bunch of them getting shot in the highly unlikely event anyone ever took it as a serious suggestion ?.
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Apr 26, 2021 16:30
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I mean the person you are replying to said "kill the attacker" is valid in most circumstances. If that were true then killing the police officer would also be a reasonable response, because they are the only person who has killed someone. Alongside that, do you believe that there was a chance of multiple stab wounds inside of this extremely short time span? Morningwoodpecker posted:Direct your anger where it's useful towards the organizations individuals and incidents where the cops clearly went overboard and people are refusing to do anything about it. There's a tragically huge range of them to pick from. Support police reforms as the alternative is frankly a complete fantasy. Vote for people who are pro gun control and police reform. And I'd argue the first part too. However most situations, no matter how honestly or dishonestly framed, are not going to make people change their minds. The problem is that this should be not only an exception but still be fully investigated by external organisations. Also, do you believe that police reform will take? How many years has it been since Rodney King? Or Fred Hampton? The gulf of year is filled at this point, and I am personally unsure that anything good will come from taking a "softly softly" approach.
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Apr 26, 2021 16:35
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Wastid posted:I don't do the bizarre calculus of subtracting the violence of Reardon and valuing Ma'Khia's life at 0. That’s not what I said or implied, what a garbage take. Every time someone wildly slaps the racism button when the narrative they want isn’t supported by the facts, they’re undermining their own cause. Knee jerk reactions like it was revenge for the guilty plea, or spinning statements like “he magdumped into a little child” makes it that much easier to dismiss when a clear injustice actually happens. Every ridiculous take about warning shots, cops being able to magically categorize people as legal minors or adults, just hurts their cause. And both things can be true at the same time! The general statement that the policing system is broken and needs reform can coexist with the fact that this particular instance may not be the poster child for that movement.
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Apr 26, 2021 16:49
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TheDisreputableDog posted:The general statement that the policing system is broken and needs reform can coexist with the fact that this particular instance may not be the poster child for that movement. This particular instance is the poster child for how even if the specific circumstances are not criminal they show what happens when you send the wrong person with the wrong skills and the wrong tools to a situation like this. Better no police than these police.
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Apr 26, 2021 16:53
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Josef bugman posted:I mean the person you are replying to said "kill the attacker" is valid in most circumstances. If that were true then killing the police officer would also be a reasonable response, because they are the only person who has killed someone.
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Apr 26, 2021 16:55
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Rust Martialis posted:I strenuously disagree. They're both just as valuable as yours or mine or anyone's. This is not the position of many people in the thread, though it is mine. I don't see how you can reconcile this view with the outcome and be satisfied. Morningwoodpecker posted:Any realistic ideas that wouldn't be reversed within the first week following a bunch of them getting shot in the highly unlikely event anyone ever took it as a serious suggestion ?. The vast vast majority of the time police are doing things like moving violations and complaints about barking dogs and poo poo, stuff that doesn't need and is in fact made more dangerous by having a gun present. Start there I guess, take the gun off the belt and leave it in the car. There's also a fuckton of cops so how about the next time 6 cops come to cite you for expired tags or whatever only one of them is carrying? Policing isn't that dangerous and to the extent that it is, a lot of it is because the police make it so. Every encounter with police as a black person in this country is a potential life and death one, and those stakes are where they are because of the police. What do you think Reardon would have done if he did not have access to a gun in this situation? Better outcome or worse? I think it would probably be better. I think it probably would have been better if he hadn't shown up at all. willie_dee posted:As they seem to think that getting stabbed multiple times in the neck isn’t likely to result in death. If I'm wrong let me know but my quick searches are telling me the fatality rate for 'penetrating neck injuries'(which isn't limited to stabbings of the sort were discussing here but is close as I can find) is between 3-10%. I think if the police on scene had tried to restrain and detain Ma'Khia the outcome would likely be better, hopefully resulting in no injuries, but almost certainly less severe injuries than 4 gunshot wounds resulting in death.
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Apr 26, 2021 17:06
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Josef bugman posted:Also, do you believe that police reform will take? How many years has it been since Rodney King? Or Fred Hampton? The gulf of year is filled at this point, and I am personally unsure that anything good will come from taking a "softly softly" approach. It has taken too long. But I am sure that trashing your own credibility will not accelerate it. It will not help with the opposition, or the fence-sitters, or the indifferent. And I am fairly sure that it is likelier to do the opposite.
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Apr 26, 2021 17:10
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Josef bugman posted:And I'd argue the first part too. However most situations, no matter how honestly or dishonestly framed, are not going to make people change their minds. The problem is that this should be not only an exception but still be fully investigated by external organisations. Also, do you believe that police reform will take? How many years has it been since Rodney King? Or Fred Hampton? The gulf of year is filled at this point, and I am personally unsure that anything good will come from taking a "softly softly" approach. I genuinely think there's hope this time, not thanks to cops improving but thanks to compulsory body worn video (where its not sabotaged) and the public filming the cops. They used to be able to destroy CCTV or argue in court it was a breach of their privacy so it got rendered inadmissible or whatever. With people banging it straight on the internet they just can't do that anymore and everyone gets to see how they really are. The national rampage the cops went on against peaceful BLM protestors and the deliberate targeting of the press filming the protests went round the world and changed a lot of minds so hopefully nows the time things will change for the better. Chauvin being found guilty was a really pleasant surprise for me I didn't think it would go that way in court despite it being bloody obvious what he did. I thought they'd throw it out on a technicality or they'd struggle to find a jury without some redneck qanon troglodyte in it. It's just one step but it's a step in the right direction and hopefully not a sacrifice to public opinion to be used as an excuse not to reform. I'm not so much a believer in a softly softly approach as I am a realist. Hitting them in their blatant criminal dishonesty and murderous tendencies via uploaded videos they can't stop is the way forward, they can never be trusted to do it do it themselves. There's no quick fix.
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Apr 26, 2021 17:10
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Josef bugman posted:What does then, in your opinion? Terebus posted:The cop had roughly 7 or so seconds to evaluate the situation and make a life or death decision. If we're considering the tackle and restrain scenario, 5 seconda at best, probably 3 if we're being realistic. In those 3 seonds the cop has to roll up to an ongoing incident, evaluate it, decide on the restrain course of action, pick the right person to restrain, and then actually restrain the person physically. This is an evidently unreasonable expectation to have unless the cop is Jackie Chan or something. Within the same 5 seconds, evaluate the ongoing incident, pick the right person to tackle, tackle a child right nearby you: evidently unreasonable action movie nonsense. Morningwoodpecker posted:This is the issue here. The types looking to portray all the genuine well meant outrage over murderous overly violent cops as dishonest or contrived want examples of exactly that to discredit any criticism of cops. Providing them with what they want doesn't help anyone except the Chauvin's of the world. Contrasting those who believe that Ma'Khia didn't necessarily have to die with those who have "genuine well meant outrage" over other police killings you find more acceptable is repugnant. willie_dee posted:There’s an awful lot of posters here who have utterly bizarre notions of what can and can’t be done by humans to restrain other humans, who then post examples of entirely different scenarios. A conversation about if it's reasonable to expect him to make that decision is one thing. A conversation about if it's reasonable to expect an officer to take on the risk being cut or stabbed for tackling someone with a knife when it's safer (for himself) to shoot her is another. "Utterly bizarre", to me, is the idea that a professionally trained grown rear end man can't tackle a child he believes lethal force is required to stop when she is in his immediate proximity. Not "shouldn't be expected to make that snap judgment", not "shouldn't be expected to risk being cut or stabbed", simply "can't ". willie_dee posted:There’s going to be a cop massively over reacting and killing another black child completely unfairly and they will use the people who are claiming that they don’t think knives are dangerous and that kids should knife fight all the time without intervention, or that cops should let murderers kill people because it’s better optics than cops killing murderers as examples of criticism rather than the vast majority of cases where there’s legitimate criticism to be had. TheDisreputableDog posted:Every time someone wildly slaps the racism button when the narrative they want isn’t supported by the facts, they’re undermining their own cause. The wild thing about the overheated rhetoric of the last page is that I'm fairly sure I've proposed the harshest "punishment" for Reardon--no longer being allowed in a job where he's allowed to decide whether lethal force is necessary... after he shot a child in the back 4 times as a "first resort" rather than a last one. Paracaidas fucked around with this message at 17:32 on Apr 26, 2021 |
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Apr 26, 2021 17:29
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willie_dee posted:As they seem to think that getting stabbed multiple times in the neck isn’t likely to result in death. Ah, now we're at the point where not only do we know exactly what the child was going to do before getting shots, but several actions in the future. Could you please refrain from using fanfic to bolster your case? TheDisreputableDog posted:Every time someone wildly slaps the racism button when the narrative they want isn’t supported by the facts, they’re undermining their own cause. Knee jerk reactions like it was revenge for the guilty plea, or spinning statements like “he magdumped into a little child” makes it that much easier to dismiss when a clear injustice actually happens. Every ridiculous take about warning shots, cops being able to magically categorize people as legal minors or adults, just hurts their cause.. Discussion of racism isn't, in any way shape or form, remotely being overused in American discourse, discussion of police violence, or this forum. Racism is 100% at play here, as it is in every single part of American life, especially including all police interactions. It doesn't hurt any cause. Jaxyon fucked around with this message at 17:33 on Apr 26, 2021 |
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Apr 26, 2021 17:30
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Wastid posted:This is not the position of many people in the thread, though it is mine. I don't see how you can reconcile this view with the outcome and be satisfied. I'm not satisfied. I think I've been quite clear on that. I am very loving FAR from "satisfied" in fact. However, I do accept the general principle that the use of force, even deadly force, in self-defense to prevent grievous bodily harm to oneself or another, is legitimate. And I've explained previously why I honestly don't think Reardon could have grabbed her in time based on viewing the videos. I don't think any reasonable person could be "satisfied" by the death of a 15-year old girl.
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Apr 26, 2021 17:33
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Cugel the Clever posted:The officer was a defender in this situation, not the attacker. Surely this should be obvious to anyone not working backwards from "all police use of force is illegitimate". Do you believe that someone who kills another person can be a defender? You could argue that the only thing that makes the police officer a defender in this instance is being an agent of the state. If we have it so that some random person comes round, gets out of a car and shoots Ma'Khia to death in the same circumstances, would they have been a defender also? vessbot posted:It has taken too long. But I am sure that trashing your own credibility will not accelerate it. It will not help with the opposition, or the fence-sitters, or the indifferent. And I am fairly sure that it is likelier to do the opposite. We are all just voices on the internet wind, commenting on a tragedy. To imply that somehow we set public opinion is giving all of us too much credit. Morningwoodpecker posted:I genuinely think there's hope this time. Hold onto that, as it seems like every other time there was hope as well. It didn't take. Josef bugman fucked around with this message at 18:02 on Apr 26, 2021 |
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Apr 26, 2021 18:00
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Josef bugman posted:Hold onto that, as it seems like every other time there was hope as well. It didn't take. The technological fix is in this time though. Everyone having a video camera on their phone and the ability to share the footage instantly will restrict their excesses. In public anyway. Cops shooting at people with camera phones and claiming they thought it was a gun will probably be next if it hasn't started yet.
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Apr 26, 2021 18:20
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I don't believe tech will save us. It certainly has not done so in the past. It will merely quieten things and make it so that they just murder people in cells as opposed to on the street.
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Apr 26, 2021 18:24
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mllaneza posted:Apropos to this point, let's address the issue where cops draw their gun as a precaution. THat makes lethal force the default escalation step. Beau has some good thoughts on the issue. You know this guy assisted in human trafficking right?
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Apr 26, 2021 18:25
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Paracaidas posted:Within 5 seconds, evaluate the ongoing incident, pick the right person to shoot, recognize bystanders near his line of fire, yell at them to get down, shoot a child in the back 4 times: Unimpeachable, both in hindsight and in the moment Reardon's only choice. I think this is a great highlight of the relationship between policing culture and individual police actions in the United States. Doing either of these things over five seconds in a chaotic environment is hard, and you can really only be successful (for whatever definition of “successful” you’re using) with training. And it’s clear that Reardon was trained to do the first but not the second. I think this is what causes a lot of people to run into each other on this: He did exactly what he was trained to do “well”(when violence starts, start shooting until it stops) [so why condemn him?] but what he was trained to do, predictably, led to a child’s death [so why accept the outcome?] Like, sure, you could fire him. But what he did is the absolute ceiling of behavior we can expect from any U.S. cop. “He hosed up,” even if true, is nowhere near the end of the story.
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Apr 26, 2021 18:29
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PeterCat posted:You know this guy assisted in human trafficking right? If you're going to make a claim like this, either back it up with a valid source or don't make it.
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Apr 26, 2021 18:42
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Jaxyon posted:Ah, now we're at the point where not only do we know exactly what the child was going to do before getting shots, but several actions in the future. This, this right here. This is perhaps the dumbest loving thing I've seen posted right here. For the people condemning the cop, do you see based on this post how loving stupid your arguments are becoming? We know what she was going to do before she was shot. IT IS RECORDED ON VIDEO. There's no goddamn argument to this. So here we are, video is lying, your eyes are lying, knife wounds are perfectly fine, and in fact someone posted that no cop should have showed up, meaning the intended victim should have been potentially stabbed to death, which means a different death would have ok. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 26, 2021 18:43
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Josef bugman posted:Do you believe that someone who kills another person can be a defender? You could argue that the only thing that makes the police officer a defender in this instance is being an agent of the state. If we have it so that some random person comes round, gets out of a car and shoots Ma'Khia to death in the same circumstances, would they have been a defender also? Legally? Yes. Self-defense is a a defense of justification, and is not in any way limited to peace officers. For example the Criminal Code of Canada s. 34 lays out the defense of self-defense thusly: quote:34. (1) A person is not guilty of an offence if The onus is on the prosecution to disprove one or more of the three elements. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justification_(jurisprudence) In the UK, since this is you Josef: https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/self-defence-and-prevention-crime https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1967/58/section/3 Section 3 of the Criminal Justice Act (1967) "A person may use such force as is reasonable in the circumstances in the prevention of crime, or in effecting or assisting in the lawful arrest of offenders or suspected offenders or of persons unlawfully at large." Again, use of force, even deadly force, to prevent someone being stabbed, is legal. In this case, you would have to show that the shooter's belief that the girl was about to be stabbed was not reasonable, or that he didn't shoot Bryant to prevent the stabbing, or that the act was not reasonable in the circumstances *as Reardon reasonably understood them*. You can have imperfect self-defense, in Ohio for example: https://statelaws.findlaw.com/ohio-...20or%20vehicle. Imperfect self-defense arises where the accused actually but unreasonably believes in the imminent threat. It won't eliminate the homicide, but it removes the mens rea element, and typically reduces murder to manslaughter. So, yes, if you got out of your car and saw Bryant approach pink girl, and had drawn a weapon and fired, given the circumstances where you believed Bryant was about to inflict grievous bodily harm on the other girl (stabbing counts), then you would legally be able to claim self-defense as a justification for shooting. Police or not.
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Apr 26, 2021 18:43
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Josef bugman posted:I don't believe tech will save us. It certainly has not done so in the past. It will merely quieten things and make it so that they just murder people in cells as opposed to on the street. We didn't have the tech in the past. Cell murders have dropped since the requirement for CCTV in all cells was introduced in some area's. It was introduced because of the cell murders so we know it can and does work. I'd make body worn video compulsory and not accessible or controllable to the cops themselves, no footage or missing footage and no pay for that shift. Sackings and prosecutions for tampering. Easily achievable with current data storage and gear.
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Apr 26, 2021 18:44
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Rust Martialis posted:
"self defense" is an affirmative defense, which has a different standard of proof and usually requires the defense to actually prove.
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Apr 26, 2021 18:49
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Since this seems to be a major point of contention here, I will say for the record that I believe that a cop shooting a private citizen to death is a worse outcome than one private citizen stabbing another private citizen, especially when the person being shot is a teenager. Both outcomes are terrible, but I would prefer one where an agent of the state isn't given the right to decide who lives and who dies in a split second timeframe based purely on instinct. Feel free to continue arguing that a cop shooting a black teenager to death is preferable, it's definitely a great look. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 26, 2021 18:50
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Jaxyon posted:Discussion of racism isn't, in any way shape or form, remotely being overused in American discourse, discussion of police violence, or this forum. I probably phrased that badly, clearly systemic racism factored into this incident and shining a light at root causes is definitely a good thing. I meant the knee-jerk "so you assign zero value to her life/you're in favor of cops gunning down black people/you're a nazi then" reaction to the slightest pushback on this one. So hitting the "you're a racist" button, then.
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Apr 26, 2021 18:56
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Handsome Ralph posted:If you're going to make a claim like this, either back it up with a valid source or don't make it. Bit shocked to find out that assuming he's the same Justin Eric King from the "Eurohouse" case in 2008 in FL, then yeah, he was front man for a group bringing young eastern european women to the US on false pretences. "Finally, it was revealed that when the federal government had become suspicious and stopped issuing visas to Eurohouse, King and the other defendants had continued their fraudulent activity under the guise of a new labor contracting company called Woland. King was convicted on seven counts of visa fraud and alien smuggling and sentenced to 41 months in prison." http://centerforchildwelfare.fmhi.usf.edu/kb/humantraf/FLStrategicPlan-HumanTraffick2010.pdf quote:The Okaloosa County Sheriff’s Office had for several years been scrutinizing patterns of labor trafficking in the area of Destin and Fort Walton Beach. Beginning as early as 1999, Russian nationals Anna Czerwien, Aleksander Berman, and Stan Finkel began supplying young Eastern European men and women to Panhandle resorts for janitorial and maid services. Operating under the name of Eurohouse Holding Corporation, they brought the Eastern European workers to the Florida Panhandle for short term work on temporary J-1 or H-2B visas. The vast majority of the workers were females between the ages of 19 and 23. Moreover, most were also students who were intent upon returning after several months to their homes in Eastern Europe to continue their studies. HE got out in 2011 and apparently switch tracks (wayyy less reliable source here) https://www.coursehero.com/file/p7f0gtf/In-2008-in-Chipley-Florida-Justin-King-was-convicted-with-a-felony-The/ "Justin King served 3 years in federal prison in 2011, and upon release he decided to change his tactics and “realized he had better uses for his skills.” This was when Justin first started his career in journalism in 2013. He first wrote for Digital Journal, a small Canadian Outlet. He then moved to the Anti-Media and then founded The Fifth Column in 2015."
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Apr 26, 2021 18:58
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Rust Martialis posted:Bit shocked to find out that assuming he's the same Justin Eric King from the "Eurohouse" case in 2008 in FL, then yeah, he was front man for a group bringing young eastern european women to the US on false pretences.  Well gently caress. Yeah maybe don't use that guy to make a point.
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Apr 26, 2021 19:02
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Fart Amplifier posted:"self defense" is an affirmative defense, which has a different standard of proof and usually requires the defense to actually prove. You're right, I got it backwards. The shooter has to show they had an honest and reasonable belief that Bryant was about to stab the pink girl. Then you get into "reasonable force".
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Apr 26, 2021 19:03
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