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BetterToRuleInHell posted:This, this right here. This is perhaps the dumbest loving thing I've seen posted right here. It certainly looks like that child was going to stab that person, on video. Beyond that, It would be super cool if you could reply to what I write rather than making up the rest of my beliefs as a stawman. TheDisreputableDog posted:I probably phrased that badly, clearly systemic racism factored into this incident and shining a light at root causes is definitely a good thing. I meant the knee-jerk "so you assign zero value to her life/you're in favor of cops gunning down black people/you're a nazi then" reaction to the slightest pushback on this one. So hitting the "you're a racist" button, then. No I think you phrased it the way you meant it. It's essentially the same argument that everyone brings up when racism is mentioned, which is to decry it's use, explain that while racism exists this isn't it, and that using the term here devalues it and hurts your argument. Which are all things you did. I do not believe that, were this a white kid, the police would have unloaded their pistol into here within ~10 seconds of arrival. Mostly because there's multiple incidents in the past week of white adults attempting to kill police and not getting shot.
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Apr 26, 2021 19:23
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Jaxyon posted:Mostly because there's multiple incidents in the past week of white adults attempting to kill police and not getting shot. Bryant wasn't trying to stab the police officer.
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Apr 26, 2021 19:33
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Fister Roboto posted:Since this seems to be a major point of contention here, I will say for the record that I believe that a cop shooting a private citizen to death is a worse outcome than one private citizen stabbing another private citizen, especially when the person being shot is a teenager. Apparently other people prefer the pink girl be stabbed instead of Bryant being shot even more than you: https://www.wkbn.com/news/ohio/cleveland-connection-in-deadly-police-shooting-of-teen-in-columbus-i-team/
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Apr 26, 2021 19:36
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Rust Martialis posted:Apparently other people prefer the pink girl be stabbed instead of Bryant being shot even more than you: Can’t open in Europe? Can you transcribe?
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Apr 26, 2021 19:45
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cops shouldn't have guns and the murder of ma'khia bryant, a child, is yet another reminder why
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Apr 26, 2021 19:47
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willie_dee posted:Can’t open in Europe? Can you transcribe? quote:CLEVELAND (WJW) – The FOX 8 I-Team has learned of death threats reported to Cleveland police by a woman at the heart of a deadly police shooting of a teen in Columbus.
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Apr 26, 2021 19:52
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Rust Martialis posted:Bryant wasn't trying to stab the police officer. Yes, I know. I'm saying that police aren't even willing to shoot white adults who actively trying to kill them, let alone white children who are trying to kill someone else. Racism figures into why a police officer can be mentally able to put 4 shots into a child within a few seconds of arriving on scene. Because they do not value black lives as they do white ones.
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Apr 26, 2021 19:55
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Rust Martialis posted:Apparently other people prefer the pink girl be stabbed instead of Bryant being shot even more than you: Well, it's not an absurd position. Stabbing is much less likely to be deadly than "four gunshot wounds" even if it's still very dangerous and potentially fatal. You can argue that it was unacceptable to kill Bryant in defense of Pink, and you can argue that it's justified, and neither one is clearly right or wrong. I think if you can't see that both sides of this debate have some validity, you're purposefully ignoring it in favour of your own position. That's why I think the focus in terms of preventing anything like this from happening again needs to be in preventing the quite-dangerous situation that led to a debate like "is it better to shoot a teenager or allow someone to (likely) get stabbed?" Those are both horrible choices!
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Apr 26, 2021 19:59
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willie_dee posted:Can’t open in Europe? Can you transcribe? /mw waves at you from Denmark
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Apr 26, 2021 20:02
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Bel Shazar posted:This particular instance is the poster child for how even if the specific circumstances are not criminal they show what happens when you send the wrong person with the wrong skills and the wrong tools to a situation like this. I honestly don’t understand this take. Better to let someone get stabbed and get killed by a child than it is to kill that child? What about the right of pink sweater to not be murdered? As much as I hate defending the loving police, are we watching different videos? How did the cop make Ma’Khia decide to try and murder someone? The situation is terrible and the result of numerous failures of the system, none of which are borne by the specific policeman in this video who was trying to keep a girl from being killed in front of him. Again, it’s loving tragic — I wish that Ma’Khia had known the value of life before she tried to take it. But the moment she chose to pick up and knife and move it in a stabbing motion towards someone else, the cop had to act. That’s not copaganda, that’s a human being seeing another human being about to be stabbed in a melee that they had witnessed for all of ten seconds. I would hope that anyone would do the same were my child about to be stabbed. Conversely, if my child valued life so little that they were going to stab someone, I would hope someone would protect the innocent in that situation as well. ... and no, I’m not celebrating a dead child. It’s heartbreaking and I wish the cops had been there sooner to de-escalate (hopefully), I wish the economic system we had didn’t punish PoC and put them into neighborhoods where they fight over scraps, I wish the war on drugs hadn’t happened and broken up PoC families over and over. There’s so much racist poo poo that contributed to this happening. This is the convergence of a few racist systems meeting each other, but the act itself — keeping an innocent from being murdered — was the only one that could have been taken in that moment of a knife being thrust at someone’s torso/neck. One more time for clarity — I wish Ma’Khia was alive. But the moment she tried to murder someone else —and that’s what stabbing a knife towards someone’s torso/neck is— she gave up her right to safety in that moment.
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Apr 26, 2021 20:12
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Rust Martialis posted:/mw waves at you from Denmark Interesting note police killed Zero people in denmark for the last year we have data for, 2019. Over the past decade police have killed 0,1 or 2 people per year. The US Police kill about 1200-1600 a year. Adjusting for population US police killed about 34 people for every 10 million in 2019. If you compare that to Denmark's population(5.5 million) that's about 18 people every year.
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Apr 26, 2021 20:13
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Jaxyon posted:Interesting note police killed Zero people in denmark for the last year we have data for, 2019. Less than 4% of people in Denmark own guns in the US there are more guns than people.
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Apr 26, 2021 20:20
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Jaxyon posted:Yes, I know. Where are you from where police don't regularly shoot white people trying to kill them? I just Googled "police shoot knife-wielding man" and the results contradict your thesis. Now, if you want to say "police disproportionately use force against minorities", fine, but you didn't.
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Apr 26, 2021 20:24
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Morningwoodpecker posted:Less than 4% of people in Denmark own guns in the US there are more guns than people. OTOH there are rifle clubs all over the place, a couple near us på Amager i Kastrup. And if you want to talk racism in Denmark, hahahahahahahahahahahahaahahahahahahahaha Støjberg and Plague Island
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Apr 26, 2021 20:26
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Morningwoodpecker posted:Any realistic ideas that wouldn't be reversed within the first week following a bunch of them getting shot in the highly unlikely event anyone ever took it as a serious suggestion ?. Morningwoodpecker posted:Less than 4% of people in Denmark own guns in the US there are more guns than people. Do you believe we should arm pizza drivers then? Do you earnestly believe that the only thing keeping people from shooting cops is that "well cops have a gun" Sedisp fucked around with this message at 20:33 on Apr 26, 2021 |
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Apr 26, 2021 20:30
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Rust Martialis posted:OTOH there are rifle clubs all over the place, a couple near us på Amager i Kastrup. Sounds like a sensible place to keep and use guns to me. Pretty similar to our system with restrictions, permits, pre-checks, re-certifications and home weapon safes.
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Apr 26, 2021 20:38
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Morningwoodpecker posted:Less than 4% of people in Denmark own guns in the US there are more guns than people. Yes and? Rust Martialis posted:Where are you from where police don't regularly shoot white people trying to kill them? I just Googled "police shoot knife-wielding man" and the results contradict your thesis. Now, if you want to say "police disproportionately use force against minorities", fine, but you didn't. My thesis is that police don't value black lives to the level they do whites. Hence the "Black lives matter" movement. Not that they never ever ever kill whites. Yes, I would agree they disproportionately use force against minorities.
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Apr 26, 2021 20:43
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Sedisp posted:Do you believe we should arm pizza drivers then? Pizza drivers don't have to respond to people shooting each other
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Apr 26, 2021 20:52
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Jaxyon posted:My thesis is that police don't value black lives to the level they do whites. Hence the "Black lives matter" movement. What you actually said though is Jaxyon posted:I'm saying that police aren't even willing to shoot white adults who actively trying to kill them, let alone white children who are trying to kill someone else. and it turns out they very much are willing to shoot white adults who are or are not trying to kill them, so is it particularly shocking that someone went "hey that thing you said isn't true?"
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Apr 26, 2021 20:56
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Fart Amplifier posted:Pizza drivers don't have to respond to people shooting each other Not sure what that has to do with "police kill people in the US because there's so many guns" the lion's share of police killings do not involve the person having a gun.
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Apr 26, 2021 21:04
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Sedisp posted:Not sure what that has to do with "police kill people in the US because there's so many guns" the lion's share of police killings do not involve the person having a gun. They usually don't involve pizza either though. Not even when someones put pineapple on it.
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Apr 26, 2021 21:09
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Jaxyon posted:Interesting note police killed Zero people in denmark for the last year we have data for, 2019. Fun fact about the Danish police. It takes 28 months to be a policeman in denmark. You have to be 21 years old to start.
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Apr 26, 2021 21:11
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reignonyourparade posted:What you actually said though is They are at least 3x as willing to shoot black adults. So do you think that I a) Don't believe a white person has ever been shot by the cops or b) worded that badly I realize going with B makes it easier for you to strawman my positions so here we are.
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Apr 26, 2021 21:12
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edit: dbl
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Apr 26, 2021 21:13
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vuk83 posted:Fun fact about the Danish police. Very inefficient. Here in the US you just have to be a sociopathic high school grad who's starting to lose the high from years of socially tormenting your peers and wants a venue to make it legally physical
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Apr 26, 2021 21:19
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You'd figure that with the US having more guns than people we'd be giving them more training than cosmetologists(who are awesome and that's no slight on them), but we don't. But if training or ability to kill were dependent the the danger to the job then roofers and loggers and pizza delivery drives would all be getting more training and guns.
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Apr 26, 2021 21:22
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Morningwoodpecker posted:Less than 4% of people in Denmark own guns in the US there are more guns than people. must be a lot of knife attacks then, since pretty much every person is going to have access to multiple knives. and yet police still manage to only kill 1 or 2 people a year. fascinating. I wonder how they do it.
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Apr 26, 2021 21:39
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Ringo Roadagain posted:must be a lot of knife attacks then, since pretty much every person is going to have access to multiple knives. and yet police still manage to only kill 1 or 2 people a year. fascinating. I wonder how they do it. The UK has an equivalent number(per capita) of knife attacks as the US and kill about 3 a year. You'd think the number one thing killing cops would be guns but it turns out it's suicide and COVID(last year) and guns is about on par with traffic accidents.
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Apr 26, 2021 21:43
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It's kind of incredible seeing even non-americans buy into the idea that this country is so special and dangerous that we have to have cowboy cops and can't adopt any of the policies that work in the rest of the world.
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Apr 26, 2021 21:56
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The described situation would lead to a shooting in Europe, too.
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Apr 26, 2021 22:08
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Gumball Gumption posted:It's kind of incredible seeing even non-americans buy into the idea that this country is so special and dangerous that we have to have cowboy cops and can't adopt any of the policies that work in the rest of the world. You have an extreme right wing SCOTUS that's about to hear cases on both open and closed carry restrictions. It is conceivable they'll rule that any restrictions are unconstitutional and people can walk anywhere they please fully armed
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Apr 26, 2021 22:23
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tehinternet posted:I honestly don’t understand this take. I've kind of been arguing one side of this incident for most of the thread, but I want to change gears and sort of argue the other side, since I feel like I get where Bel Shazar is coming from, and generally sympathize with it. The fact of the matter is that it isn't really an either/or choice, here. There are a lot of different ways this could have ended, with or without either Ma'Khia or the Woman in Pink being killed. Some are more likely than others, of course; but there was no true "if this/then that" choice to be made here. The outcome in this instance was that Ma'Khia was killed, and the Woman in Pink was uninjured. That was definitely one foreseeable outcome of the circumstances, but it was certainly not the only foreseeable outcome. One of the other readily foreseeable ways this could have ended is actually with both Ma'Khia and the Woman in Pink dead or gravely injured as a result of the officer putting multiple rounds downrange in their general direction in a high-stress situation. It is fair to say that in that moment the officer was gambling--and at that, gambling on not-entirely-favorable odds. To the extent you consider stopping the threat he perceived at that moment without hurting any bystanders a "win", he sort of won that gamble. But he very easily could have lost, and at even greater cost. The sort of changes in American law enforcement that most of us in this thread agree need to happen will have both costs and benefits. One feature of the current system is that officers have the ability to easily make a gamble like what happened with Ma'Khia Bryant. It is easy to call that out as a bad thing when it goes obviously badly, but it is harder to call this out as a problem when the results are more ambiguous. One change most of us would like to see is to make it much harder for law enforcement to deploy deadly force. This will be beneficial in far more cases than not, but there will still likely be costs, and in individual instances the new system may produce results that are not unambiguously preferable to the old one. Aegis fucked around with this message at 00:24 on Apr 27, 2021 |
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Apr 26, 2021 22:24
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Fart Amplifier posted:You have an extreme right wing SCOTUS that's about to hear cases on both open and closed carry restrictions. It is conceivable they'll rule that any restrictions are unconstitutional and people can walk anywhere they please fully armed I'm fairly certain that at least Roberts - Alito - Thomas are on record as supporting some gun restrictions. even if in Alito's case it's motivated by a desire to ensure minorities can't be armed
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Apr 26, 2021 22:28
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So I finally made myself watch the video and Jesus Christ what a clusterfuck. I will say that if I had been the girl in pink, I certainly would've felt like I was about to be stabbed. I was going to make a post about how this was kind of a swiss-cheese problem, but I think PT6A said it best back on page 2, and I don't really think I can add anything worthwhile to what they said, but I urge folks to take the time from screaming past each other to reread it. PT6A posted:You know how, about a lot of things, we say "oh wow, this is a systemic problem?" This is probably one of those things. We can debate the last 7 seconds of this poor child's life forever, but I'm gonna go out on a limb and say the more tractable problems are: "how does a 16-year-old foster child come to be involved in a knife fight?" Because, if you prevent that, you've prevented this shooting. And I think there are probably much more interesting and actionable answers to that question than "should a cop use deadly force if they believe someone else is about die if they don't?"
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Apr 26, 2021 22:40
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I'm going to echo the sentiment expressed earlier that this thread is becoming increasingly frustrating to post in because this complex issue is being stripped of nuance so people can dunk on each other instead of actually engaging in the discussion.BetterToRuleInHell posted:Again, person trapped between car and attacker, attacker is intended to inflict bodily harm, possibly fatal, and the argument is knife wounds, just how bad?? willie_dee posted:There’s going to be a cop massively over reacting and killing another black child completely unfairly and they will use the people who are claiming that they don’t think knives are dangerous and that kids should knife fight all the time without intervention, or that cops should let murderers kill people because it’s better optics than cops killing murderers as examples of criticism rather than the vast majority of cases where there’s legitimate criticism to be had.
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Apr 26, 2021 23:06
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Sedisp posted:Not sure what that has to do with "police kill people in the US because there's so many guns" the lion's share of police killings do not involve the person having a gun. Are there very different figures available than the ones linked below? https://www.statista.com/statistics/585140/people-shot-to-death-by-us-police-by-weapon-carried-2016/ US police kill hundreds of gun or knife armed civilians each year, an order of magnitude more than unknown or unarmed. The expected result of such a killing is that they receive a commendation or promotion, maybe become a local hero and gets drinks bought for them. Actual full-on police murders of unarmed civilians are inevitably going to be at least partially a case of cops taking the easy route to that success. Imagine if 95% of school shooters got told ‘good job taking care of those bullies, here’s sponsorship for your YouTube channel’. And then thinking you could change things by keeping that system in place, but focusing on the cases where, in response to that system, some people got killed who were generally agreed to not deserve it.
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Apr 26, 2021 23:34
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NoDamage posted:
Someone on the last page of the thread literally said it's better for a private citizen to stab another than the cop to shoot them. There have been other discussions in this thread about how dangerous it is actually to get stabbed.
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Apr 26, 2021 23:34
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Fart Amplifier posted:Someone on the last page of the thread literally said it's better for a private citizen to stab another than the cop to shoot them. There have been other discussions in this thread about how dangerous it is actually to get stabbed.
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Apr 26, 2021 23:43
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Gumball Gumption posted:It's kind of incredible seeing even non-americans buy into the idea that this country is so special and dangerous that we have to have cowboy cops and can't adopt any of the policies that work in the rest of the world. Firearms officers in nearly every country would of taken that shot and be praised as heroes for saving the girl in pinks life from the attacker.
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Apr 27, 2021 00:11
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NoDamage posted:That's not quite the same thing as "cops should let murderers kill people". See what I mean about nuance being lost? It’s exactly the same. I’m not straw manning, maybe you’ve blocked these users or something and I’m unaware they are trolls, but there are people posting these exact views. I’ve even quoted a mod in the originating George Floyd thread who stepped in to tell people who clearly don’t know what they are talking about to stfu, pointing specifically to people who were saying that knives weren’t dangerous, and listen to those of us who have at least a tiny bit of experience having to restrain people or deal with people with knives.
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Apr 27, 2021 00:17
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