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Kalit posted:Oh sorry, it worked for me but I'm already logged into a youtube account apparently. If you skip to 11:37 in the video, that's where you can hear her speaking to the officer while going to/being put into a squad car. Ah yes, so as the cop apparently arrests a bystander, he prompts her to explain that she was attacked with a knife and she repeats his words. Maybe a more neutral context would make sense for a reasonable and real statement by a witness, rather than presumably seconds after seeing someone gunned down within inches of her by the people telling her what to say? litany of gulps fucked around with this message at 03:16 on Apr 22, 2021 |
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Apr 22, 2021 03:12
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Herstory Begins Now posted:There's some (probably? I haven't watched all the videos) reasonable question here as to whether or not this situation was different/urgent enough to actually require something beyond that, but even if it did, idk why he wouldn't just use a taser or pepper spray or whatever. literally zero reason to roll up with a gun, imo. I see this general sentiment posted a lot and I just have a few questions. In the video, the cop gets out of his car at about 1:28 with people running around, at 1:36 he pulls out his gun, presumably because he sees the knife, and by 1:38 he has to make the decision to shoot or not. Do you think its reasonable to expect the officer to taze or pepper spray Ma'Khia in that time frame? How would you feel if the officer used those methods but Ma'Khia still stabbed the other girl? How would you react if the officer didn't shoot Ma'Khia and she was able to stab and kill the girl in the pink?
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Apr 22, 2021 03:16
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litany of gulps posted:Ah yes, so as the cop apparently arrests a bystander, he prompts her to explain that she was attacked with a knife and she repeats his words. She wasn't arrested. Separating witnesses (including officers) is standard operating procedure when dealing with an investigation like this, so people don't collaborate to tell the same story to the investigators. And you can believe what you want, I was just showing you where she was saying that Bryant was going after her with a knife. I posted this since you were asking numerous questions about that in the post I originally responded to. E: litany of gulps posted:Maybe a more neutral context would make sense for a reasonable and real statement by a witness, rather than presumably seconds after seeing someone gunned down within inches of her by the people telling her what to say? 
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Apr 22, 2021 03:19
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litany of gulps posted:Ah yes, so as the cop apparently arrests a bystander, he prompts her to explain that she was attacked with a knife and she repeats his words. They all took part in a literal street melee. She isn’t a ”bystander”. this is some weird retconning. She is being questioned for partaking an actual group melee with dead people.
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Apr 22, 2021 03:20
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Terebus posted:at 1:36 he pulls out his gun, presumably because he sees the knife, and by 1:38 he has to make the decision to shoot or not. The obvious followup is why do you assume that he draws his gun because he sees a knife rather than he draws his gun because black people are moving in his direction? The other conclusions obviously shift depending on that initial assumption.
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Apr 22, 2021 03:20
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litany of gulps posted:The obvious followup is why do you assume that he draws his gun because he sees a knife rather than he draws his gun because black people are moving in his direction? The other conclusions obviously shift depending on that initial assumption. I personally assumme this because he sees a knife that we also see on a video. You are speaking like this knife is a hypothetical object, and we are debating its existence. Vahakyla fucked around with this message at 03:23 on Apr 22, 2021 |
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Apr 22, 2021 03:21
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I think those hypotheticals are a bit unfair. You might also ask how they’d feel if the officer didn’t shoot and Ma’Khia stopped short of stabbing the girl, or how they’d feel if Ma’Khia stabbed the girl but she survived and the cop was able to subdue her non lethally.
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Apr 22, 2021 03:23
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Kalit posted:She wasn't arrested. In your video, she's getting pushed into a cop car, yeah? What do you call that? Vahakyla posted:They all took part in a literal street melee. She isn’t a ”bystander”. She was literally just standing on the sidewalk when the "melee" came to her.
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Apr 22, 2021 03:24
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litany of gulps posted:In your video, she's getting pushed into a cop car, yeah? What do you call that? And after standing there, she becomes a participant. Unwilling or willing. She is a person of interest, and should be questioned. This has nothing to do with racism or a police state. Literally every country would have their cops questioning her. Are you arguing the cops should not speak to anyone?
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Apr 22, 2021 03:25
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Terebus posted:I see this general sentiment posted a lot and I just have a few questions. In the video, the cop gets out of his car at about 1:28 with people running around, at 1:36 he pulls out his gun, presumably because he sees the knife, and by 1:38 he has to make the decision to shoot or not. If cops responded to every situation where someone called in 'aggressive person with a gun' with a split second 'do i shoot' response there'd be vastly more dead people a year. This is seen out by the success cities have had by overhauling their responses to 'distressed person with a knife' calls (generally by just not having cops show up to interact with the person and instead to clearing other people away) leading to nearly zero shootings of said people. It's extremely effective. and yeah dude i think the odds someone dies if he responded with basically any other measure first are vastly lower. When you shoot someone center of mass, they're almost definitely dying. With other types of force, yeah maybe you'd get a perfect storm of 'she tripped and stabbed someone in a vital spot', but that's vastly less likely to end with someone dying vs just shooting someone on the spot.
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Apr 22, 2021 03:25
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Vahakyla posted:And after standing there, she becomes a participant. Unwilling or willing. She is a person of interest, and should be questioned. Her participation was a split second of falling over backwards. You are claiming that she was a participant in a street melee. At best, your words are disingenuous.
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Apr 22, 2021 03:27
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litany of gulps posted:The obvious followup is why do you assume that he draws his gun because he sees a knife rather than he draws his gun because black people are moving in his direction? The other conclusions obviously shift depending on that initial assumption. Timeless Appeal posted:The answer might be that in that exact moment--regardless of that officer being a shithead and white supremacist for other reasons--there was nothing else to do besides kill her in that moment. These two posts are kind of scary, its weird how some posters have been conditioned by selective content to think that all police officers are raging racists just waiting to pull the trigger on black people. Policing needs major reform in the west to root out systemic racism and abuse of power, but trying to find racism in every interaction that police have with black people is incredibly harmful.
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Apr 22, 2021 03:28
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litany of gulps posted:Her participation was a split second of falling over backwards. You are claiming that she was a participant in a street melee. At best, your words are disingenuous. her participation was almost getting stabbed with her dog in her hand as another girl chased her. its why she is getting escorted away because she could have just died.
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Apr 22, 2021 03:31
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Terebus posted:These two posts are kind of scary, its weird how some posters have been conditioned by selective content to think that all police officers are raging racists just waiting to pull the trigger on black people. Policing needs major reform in the west to root out systemic racism and abuse of power, but trying to find racism in every interaction that police have with black people is incredibly harmful. Did you just get out of a coma or something? If so, you might want to catch up on a few things before posting asinine copaganda like this. Shameful.
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Apr 22, 2021 03:32
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Terebus posted:These two posts are kind of scary, its weird how some posters have been conditioned by selective content to think that all police officers are raging racists just waiting to pull the trigger on black people. Policing needs major reform in the west to root out systemic racism and abuse of power, but trying to find racism in every interaction that police have with black people is incredibly harmful. Come on, guy. Selective content? What is that supposed to mean? Like the seemingly daily killings of black people by police is some curated thing intended to influence public opinion dishonestly? Get real. You think that cops are somehow in high danger of anything but crashing their own cars while not wearing seatbelts? Boy have statistics got a lesson for you!
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Apr 22, 2021 03:33
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Terebus posted:These two posts are kind of scary, its weird how some posters have been conditioned by selective content to think that all police officers are raging racists just waiting to pull the trigger on black people. Policing needs major reform in the west to root out systemic racism and abuse of power, but trying to find racism in every interaction that police have with black people is incredibly harmful. The institution of policing in the United States is one based on white supremacism, because the United States is fundamentally a white supremacist society.
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Apr 22, 2021 03:34
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Dapper_Swindler posted:her participation was almost getting stabbed with her dog in her hand as another girl chased her. its why she is getting escorted away because she could have just died. What do you figure had a higher chance of killing her, the girl falling over in her direction with a knife or the cop unloading a bunch of bullets wildly in her direction? Neither managed to do it, which would you bet your life on if you had to choose to be in her place?
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Apr 22, 2021 03:36
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litany of gulps posted:Her participation was a split second of falling over backwards. You are claiming that she was a participant in a street melee. At best, your words are disingenuous. This isn’t a value judgement! No one is blaming her. No one thinks she deserves anything. I’m simply saying we need to ask her some questions. We should ask questions from a victim of domestic violence, too.
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Apr 22, 2021 03:36
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Herstory Begins Now posted:If cops responded to every situation where someone called in 'aggressive person with a gun' with a split second 'do i shoot' response there'd be vastly more dead people a year. This is seen out by the success cities have had by overhauling their responses to 'distressed person with a knife' calls (generally by just not having cops show up to interact with the person and instead to clearing other people away) leading to nearly zero shootings of said people. It's extremely effective. I'm not talking about other situations, I'm talking about this one in which another person was almost stabbed in the upper torso/neck area. I would never argue that a cop should just roll up blasting on someone with a knife and I completely agree with better training for officers and more community resources. Herstory Begins Now posted:and yeah dude i think the odds someone dies if he responded with basically any other measure first are vastly lower. When you shoot someone center of mass, they're almost definitely dying. With other types of force, yeah maybe you'd get a perfect storm of 'she tripped and stabbed someone in a vital spot', but that's vastly less likely to end with someone dying vs just shooting someone on the spot. I guess we're just going to have to disagree here. If someone is in the middle of trying to stab another person I think the police should use lethal force. Knives are very much deadly weapons and I'd rather the cops defend the potential stabbing victim. I don't particularly agree with your assessment of who's more likely to die, but I don't think that's a useful avenue to go down.
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Apr 22, 2021 03:38
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litany of gulps posted:What do you figure had a higher chance of killing her, the girl falling over in her direction with a knife or the cop unloading a bunch of bullets wildly in her direction? Neither managed to do it, which would you bet your life on if you had to choose to be in her place? Irrelevant, since a girl wasn't falling over in her direction with a knife, a girl was trying to stab her.
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Apr 22, 2021 03:39
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Vahakyla posted:This isn’t a value judgement! No one is blaming her. No one thinks she deserves anything. Can you recognize that in the video, the cop states what he believed happened and the girl repeated almost word for word his statement, as he pushed her into a police car? This person just watched a cop execute another person inches from them moments ago. Do you believe that any such statements or questioning are valid? That there isn't obvious coercion inherent in the entire situation? That girl needs a lawyer and some time to process the situation, but here she is being dissected in the news. You think that story won't change when it goes to trial? I can't guarantee that it will, but I won't be surprised when it does. And I don't think that change will be because she is dishonest.
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Apr 22, 2021 03:40
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Honestly, litany of gulps denying the victim's account of the assault is loving disgusting. Girl in pink was holding her little dog and looking on, Ma'Khia turned on her with a knife and nearly stabbed her. It's all tragic and and indication of a failing of the broader system. Maybe the cops could have delayed their response to kit up more appropriately for the scenario as described over the radio. Maybe the foster dad could have been something other than an active participant in the melee. But, at the end of the day, an aggressor actively wielding a deadly weapon against another person absolutely should be met with whatever response is most immediately on hand to eliminate the threat. Edit: Vahakyla posted:This isn’t a value judgement! No one is blaming her. No one thinks she deserves anything. Just a friendly note: I also had the takeaway that you were making a value judgement on initial read and was going to push back until you elaborated, so the phrasing wasn't perfect. Participant definitely has connotations of agency and culpability, which the available videos don't suggest. Agree with the overall point, though. Cugel the Clever fucked around with this message at 03:48 on Apr 22, 2021 |
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Apr 22, 2021 03:42
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litany of gulps posted:Can you recognize that in the video, the cop states what he believed happened and the girl repeated almost word for word his statement, as he pushed her into a police car? This person just watched a cop execute another person inches from them moments ago. Do you believe that any such statements or questioning are valid? That there isn't obvious coercion inherent in the entire situation? That girl needs a lawyer and some time to process the situation, but here she is being dissected in the news. You think that story won't change when it goes to trial? I can't guarantee that it will, but I won't be surprised when it does. And I don't think that change will be because she is dishonest. I made an edit in my previous post, so maybe you missed it: Kalit posted:E: Why are you clinging so hard to your "she might have been tripping and falling" theory?
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Apr 22, 2021 03:43
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"She fuckin came at me OK," said by the lady in pink as she is taken off by the police in an apparent arrest, yes? Edit: The lady in pink, who was a bystander until literally the final second or two of the entire incident? Who very nearly got executed herself by the police prompting her to explain herself as she gets shoved into a police car? Maybe we can wait a day or two to hear what she actually has to say? Think that might be wise? litany of gulps fucked around with this message at 03:51 on Apr 22, 2021 |
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Apr 22, 2021 03:45
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litany of gulps posted:"She fuckin came at me OK," said by the lady in pink as she is taken off by the police in an apparent arrest, yes? State what you imagine to be best? The police let her wander off?
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Apr 22, 2021 03:50
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Vahakyla posted:State what you imagine to be best? The police let her wander off? No buddy, maybe the police need be trusted enough to not need in the moment video to verify that they aren't slaughtering civilians, falsifying evidence, and intimidating witnesses? None of that is the case though, so we need in the moment video evidence released to the public on the spot or there will be riots. And there may be riots anyway, because... the video evidence is always awful. But use your judgment about some young black lady being shoved into a cop car and repeating what the cop tells her to say.
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Apr 22, 2021 03:54
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forbidden dialectics posted:Did you just get out of a coma or something? If so, you might want to catch up on a few things before posting asinine copaganda like this. Shameful. I'm the one falling for copaganda in a thread where the OP contains a factually untrue statement, repeated by other posters, that cops were yelling "Blue Lives Matter" at the victims. This could have been checked by watching the video and actually listening to what's being said, it's only about 10s long. Then there's posters questioning whether Ma'Khia was lunging at her victim, but I'm the one falling for propaganda. litany of gulps posted:Come on, guy. Selective content? What is that supposed to mean? Like the seemingly daily killings of black people by police is some curated thing intended to influence public opinion dishonestly? Get real. You think that cops are somehow in high danger of anything but crashing their own cars while not wearing seatbelts? Boy have statistics got a lesson for you! gently caress, statistics me up then, I know that black men are 2 to 2.5 times more likely to be shot by police officers and that there's massive issues with police abuse in and around the US, but treating every single police interaction as if its just a daily exercise in racism is absurd. Famethrowa posted:The institution of policing in the United States is one based on white supremacism, because the United States is fundamentally a white supremacist society. Oh, I see you subscribe to the twitter perspective of things where US is bad and every institution that has been historically bad is exactly the same as it was in its inception. What a uselessly myopic view.
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Apr 22, 2021 03:54
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litany of gulps posted:No buddy, maybe the police need be trusted enough to not need in the moment video to verify that they aren't slaughtering civilians, falsifying evidence, and intimidating witnesses? None of that is the case though, so we need in the moment video evidence released to the public on the spot or there will be riots. And there may be riots anyway, because... the video evidence is always awful. But use your judgment about some young black lady being shoved into a cop car and repeating what the cop tells her to say. What are you talking about? What does this have to do with the fact that she should be questioned and that she was being stabbed?
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Apr 22, 2021 03:56
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Terebus posted:Oh, I see you subscribe to the twitter perspective of things where US is bad and every institution that has been historically bad is exactly the same as it was in its inception. What a uselessly myopic view. Well, in this case the police haven't really changed nor have they been compelled to change. If anything they've emboldened racists with their low conviction rate and license to use power as deemed fit for the situation. In fact, the Supreme Court has added and reinforced police powers over the last few decades and the MIC has allowed police to become as well armed as most world militaries. So... No, I don't give them a lot of slack.
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Apr 22, 2021 04:00
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Terebus posted:Oh, I see you subscribe to the twitter perspective of things where US is bad and every institution that has been historically bad is exactly the same as it was in its inception. What a uselessly myopic view. Do you have a better description of a nation built on the backs of slaves, sustained through decades of de facto and de jure segregation and exploitation, and still mostly unresponsive to the needs of the descendants of these slaves?
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Apr 22, 2021 04:01
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Zurtilik posted:Well, in this case the police haven't really changed nor have they been compelled to change. If anything they've emboldened racists with their low conviction rate and license to use power as deemed fit for the situation. In fact, the Supreme Court has added and reinforced police powers over the last few decades and the MIC has allowed police to become as well armed as most world militaries. So... No, I don't give them a lot of slack. The police are not more emboldened. They suck a metric rear end ton, but in no point in history has law enforcement been better than it is today. Vahakyla fucked around with this message at 04:13 on Apr 22, 2021 |
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Apr 22, 2021 04:01
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litany of gulps posted:No buddy, maybe the police need be trusted enough to not need in the moment video to verify that they aren't slaughtering civilians, falsifying evidence, and intimidating witnesses? None of that is the case though, so we need in the moment video evidence released to the public on the spot or there will be riots. And there may be riots anyway, because... the video evidence is always awful. But use your judgment about some young black lady being shoved into a cop car and repeating what the cop tells her to say. I feel like some people just see a completely different reality, where one woman swinging a knife at another is "just tripping". None of your narrative fits what the video evidence shows, and your questioning the need for body cameras after directly contradicting reality just goes to show that for the protection of everyone involved we need to record public interactions with police, otherwise there's always going to be people like you offering to spin the story into whatever fits their world view best.
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Apr 22, 2021 04:02
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Terebus posted:I'm the one falling for copaganda in a thread where the OP contains a factually untrue statement, repeated by other posters, that cops were yelling "Blue Lives Matter" at the victims. This could have been checked by watching the video and actually listening to what's being said, it's only about 10s long. Then there's posters questioning whether Ma'Khia was lunging at her victim, but I'm the one falling for propaganda. Does being a relentless pedant ever get tiring? Or does the death of a black child at the hands of an explicitly racist paramilitary gang just force you to keep going? Absolutely sickening that in the span of less than 24 hours from the Chauvin verdict we’ve got posts on this forum that could fit in just as well on /pol/ or Stormfront. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 22, 2021 04:04
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litany of gulps posted:What do you figure had a higher chance of killing her, the girl falling over in her direction with a knife or the cop unloading a bunch of bullets wildly in her direction? Neither managed to do it, which would you bet your life on if you had to choose to be in her place? she wasnt falling over in her direction. did you watch the video? like i am sorry, i too thought this was gonna be another case of "pig shoots an unarmed person because pigs" but i feel this was one of those "cop did what he thought he could do in that moment" I think the police in this country are hosed and this whole case is cascading collapse of systemic horrors and failings. like the loving foster dad was kicking the person on the ground in the head while the shooting was happening. the whole thing seems depressing. Dapper_Swindler fucked around with this message at 04:07 on Apr 22, 2021 |
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Apr 22, 2021 04:04
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forbidden dialectics posted:Does being a relentless pedant ever get tiring? Or does the death of a black child at the hands of an explicitly racist paramilitary gang just force you to keep going? Being supportive of BLM, and wanting murder cops to be convicted, does not mean we need to make up events. It's not stormfront to say that this child was not "falling towards the lady", and it isn't /pol to say that it seems that in the video the chant is done by bystanders.
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Apr 22, 2021 04:14
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Is litany of gulps gaslighting the thread or something? Because I've had to watch that video like 8-9 times now just to check that it still shows what I thought it showed the first couple times I watched it, I feel like I'm losing my mind here. 
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Apr 22, 2021 04:15
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Terebus posted:gently caress, statistics me up then, I know that black men are 2 to 2.5 times more likely to be shot by police officers and that there's massive issues with police abuse in and around the US, but treating every single police interaction as if its just a daily exercise in racism is absurd. This is a silly one. Just Google it. You're in more danger mowing lawns or operating any sort of machinery. Most police danger comes from their own reckless driving, not any sort of interactions with the public. https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2020-06-23/how-dangerous-is-police-work https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2021/04/police-violence-shootings-culture-fear-adam-toledo-daunte-wright.html Terebus posted:I feel like some people just see a completely different reality, where one woman swinging a knife at another is "just tripping". None of your narrative fits what the video evidence shows, and your questioning the need for body cameras after directly contradicting reality just goes to show that for the protection of everyone involved we need to record public interactions with police, otherwise there's always going to be people like you offering to spin the story into whatever fits their world view best. You're talking about literally one second or less of a video to describe this woman trying to kill another woman. You don't even have a narrative. The video makes no sense in terms of narrative. There's no reason in the context of the video for the girl with the knife to attack the pink girl. Pink girl clearly doesn't think she's going to be attacked. Knife girl clearly isn't trying to attack her. None of any of this happens until the cop shows up and draws a gun. You can say I'm spinning a story, but you're obviously manufacturing bullshit out of nothing yourself. Call a screenshot a story, but there's no narrative here that makes any sense from the video context other than people are scared of the cop pulling a gun. AVeryLargeRadish posted:Is litany of gulps gaslighting the thread or something? Because I've had to watch that video like 8-9 times now just to check that it still shows what I thought it showed the first couple times I watched it, I feel like I'm losing my mind here. OK, is there any evident motive? Does motive matter? Do you think as this story becomes a thing that concepts like motive and things beyond the superficial video will become relevant? Does it seem to you like the girl with the knife intends the pink girl as a target? Does pink girl seem to think she's a target? litany of gulps fucked around with this message at 04:19 on Apr 22, 2021 |
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Apr 22, 2021 04:16
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Vahakyla posted:The police are not more emboldened. They suck a metric rear end ton, but in no point in history has law enforcement been better than it is today. In what ways has it gotten better? By all accounts I can tell the rate of violence perpetrated by police has held steady/increased over recorded years. We have the highest conviction rate in the world. One of the highest rates of violence perpetuated by law enforcement. Despite all of that we continue to rank near the top in violent crimes and homicides. So the heavy handed approach doesn't even seem to deter crime.
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Apr 22, 2021 04:19
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Zurtilik posted:Well, in this case the police haven't really changed nor have they been compelled to change. If anything they've emboldened racists with their low conviction rate and license to use power as deemed fit for the situation. In fact, the Supreme Court has added and reinforced police powers over the last few decades and the MIC has allowed police to become as well armed as most world militaries. So... No, I don't give them a lot of slack. There are plenty of examples of policing reform in the US, and its generally getting better. https://www.ctvnews.ca/world/defunding-the-police-a-seven-year-case-study-1.4975958?cache=%2F7.611574 Camden completely overhauled their police force and they're doing much better. There's a lot of other reform being enacted or being discussed that will further go towards removing systemic racism from policing. What's not helpful is the one sided view that all policing is inherently negative. Society needs a well regulated and well trained police force to function. Famethrowa posted:Do you have a better description of a nation built on the backs of slaves, sustained through decades of de facto and de jure segregation and exploitation, and still mostly unresponsive to the needs of the descendants of these slaves? I'm really surprised you can be this heated about how the US treats black people yet ignore and belittle all the progress black leaders and the black community have made in the last century+ to strengthen the civil rights of all Americans. I don't think the US is the same country it was 150 years ago because that's not how human society works and to view it as such is beyond useless. You've just decided on a boogeyman and you're trying to make everything fit into that world view.
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Apr 22, 2021 04:19
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AVeryLargeRadish posted:Is litany of gulps gaslighting the thread or something? Because I've had to watch that video like 8-9 times now just to check that it still shows what I thought it showed the first couple times I watched it, I feel like I'm losing my mind here. yeah kinda. its pretty clear she was attacking the two other women. the question is was it self defense or was it some other stuff. its still loving awful that she was killed.
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Apr 22, 2021 04:21
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