Zack Snyders Army of the Dead: Army of Thieves: Blond Twink Edition

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > Cinema Discusso > Zack Snyders Army of the Dead: Army of Thieves: Blond Twink Edition

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Ghost Leviathan: Mar 2, 2017; Exploration is ill-advised.

Halloween Jack posted:

Those aren't the social conditions for fascism. Zeus cannot possibly be a fascist, for the same reasons that Luke Skywalker cannot possibly be a desklamp.

Excellent post, except for my Brave Little Toaster fanfiction

# ? Jun 26, 2021 17:05

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# ? May 2, 2024 00:11

Martman: Nov 20, 2006

Halloween Jack posted:

Zeus cannot possibly be a fascist, for the same reasons that Luke Skywalker cannot possibly be a desklamp.

I dunno, I heard Luke is some kind of luminous being...

# ? Jun 28, 2021 12:35

Ghost Leviathan: Mar 2, 2017; Exploration is ill-advised.

And they do call them lightsabers...

# ? Jun 28, 2021 13:10

Megaman's Jockstrap: Jul 16, 2000; What a horrible thread to have a post.

What I am getting here is that Luke could be a desk lamp...from a certain point of view.

# ? Jun 28, 2021 18:49

Judakel: Jul 29, 2004; Can't post for 9 years!

DeimosRising posted:

No we really don�t, the term �tribe� is broadly considered both analytically vague and terminologically outdated, in large part because of its colonialist connotations and its use in legal settings to refer to something totally different than the cultural evolution concept. I don�t see anything in the film to indicate the zombies have a social structure that would correspond to a traditional elman service esque tribal concept anyway

The term tribe is still used in anthropology and taught in anthropology classes to this day.

SuperMechagodzilla posted:

We�ve all been on the internet long enough to not be fooled by this stuff. You could have spent two seconds on Wikipedia:

�The definition [of �tribe�] is contested, in part due to ... the problematic application of this concept to extremely diverse human societies. The concept is often contrasted by anthropologists with other social and kinship groups, being hierarchically larger than a lineage or clan.�

If you�d like to do armchair anthropology, then the group could probably be more accurately described as a single �clan� of a broader �tribe�, given that they are united as �descendants� of one quasi-supernatural ancestor. But I would be wary of doing this, because you are blithely paving over important distinctions between various societies. Normal �kinship� or �blood relations� or whatever are out the window when the characters do not reproduce sexually (and arguably do not reproduce at all). If this is a �clan�, it�s a clan with only one marriage - ever - and zero children born. What actually connects them is their implementation of, by all appearances, a type of nanotechnology. But you clearly weren�t using �tribal� in the McLuhan sense.

So, you are muddying things. Perhaps deliberately, though that doesn�t matter.

I am interested in clarity.

It beats repeating that your actual point has absolutely nothing to do with the definition of �tribe� at all. Your actual argument is:

�Zeus wants to keep offerings coming� and is therefore �interest[ed] in expansion�, and is therefore expansionist, and is therefore a genocidal imperialist and so-on.

By staying focussed, we can safely discard your parade of spurious �counterpoints� (�alien nanomachines work differently on tigers! Prove me wrong!�), and examine the core misunderstanding:

That�s not what �expansionism� is.

It would be wonderful if you could go beyond wikipedia and learn that it is still taught to anthropology students to this day as a descriptor of a certain level of societal complexity. For someone who does armchair film analysis in your inimitable sophistic style, I think you ought to cool it by taking others to task for doing "armchair" anything. Also, because your source is wikipedia of all things. No need to paraphrase all the things you just read in order to establish some "knowledge" of anthropology after you just embarrassed yourself. As you said: they aren't a clan and we both know it. Well, I know it and you just read it. The zombies have a common ideology, a common culture, are large in numbers, and are settled for the time being. They are a tribe. They are most definitely not a clan, for all the reasons you paraphrased from some source on the web and due to being far too large. No one is muddying the waters, you just didn't know what a tribe was in an anthropological context and - because your theory that I am racist is what drives your argument - you've now decided that me explaining what it actually meant was some rhetorical play on my part. My actual point had nothing to do with the definition of tribe, your understanding of the term was simply used as another way of attacking me, so it had to be addressed. No one has a problem staying focused here but you, because you're the one presenting a completely fictional narrative about my argument. Now, let's move back to the actual discussion and not get further sidetracked by your need to both declare things racist and speak on things you do not know.

Yes, that is what expansionism is reduced to when you take into account that they simply cannot get out and there is no other reason to want to grow this tribe given the environmental conditions present and space restrictions. All points that I have already argued before you joined in the discussion and I must now repeat to you. Were he to be able to get out, he could expand beyond a tribe, he could expand territory under his control, etc. All of which would necessarily require a genocide. And we know Zeus is interested in all of this not simply because of the tributes he keeps getting, but also because he decided to turn most of Las Vegas into zombies for no other discernible reason. Zeus has already committed a genocide. One which also happens to be a pretty solid point on the "expansionism" column, but you didn't really think about that, did you? Just like you didn't think about the fact they were locked in.

On your comment about the tiger, I'd like to simply point out the nanomachines do not need to work any differently on the tigers in order to work as they do. I know you wanted to take a shot at me with that comment, but I have no idea what you're thinking. The nanomachines were clearly part of a super-soldier program meant to enhance certain tissues like muscle and bone while lowering the metabolism of a host - thus lowering their temperature and the need to feed. We see evidence for both in the movie. Something went wrong and the nanomachines entered the central nervous system, resulting in lower cognition. Zeus was clearly on his way to being disposed of because of this. Nothing about this necessitates that nanomachines work differently on the tigers, but obviously if it were a virus (which it isn't) then it would be necessary that it be a different strain. That was my entire point to that other poster. By the way, none of the talk about the tiger was originally in reply to you! So it wasn't a counterpoint! You're too much of a dunce to know what counterpoints are, too?

SuperMechagodzilla posted:

So are we talking �ancient ideals�, �western ideals�, or �fascist ideals�?

And which ones?

You seem to be making the same sort of associative leaps as Judakel, where the character briefly admires a statue of Zeus before occupying the Olympus Casino and is therefore fascist because the Nazis had once appropriated greco-Roman aesthetics.

I am making no leaps of this sort. In fact, you have not shown that I am making any leaps. The best you could come up with is the idiotic statement that they are not expansionist because they aren't going anywhere. Conveniently ignoring the fact that they cannot! That is just lazy on your part.

Halloween Jack posted:

Fascism is best understood along two dimensions:

1. A strategy by the political right to coopt the mass politics associated with the political left.
2. When an imperial nation, in a state of crisis, turns the methods it uses to subdue colonized peoples on its own population.

This actual definition of fascism isn't very well known, partly because it doesn't leave the door open for all kinds of glib literary criticism. It doesn't allow for a failed academic to get an interview with Vice answering questions like "Is Donald Trump fascist? Is Paw Patrol fascist? Is baking bread fascist?"

Zeus and his people are a population of natural disaster victims in a death camp.

Those aren't the social conditions for fascism. Zeus cannot possibly be a fascist, for the same reasons that Luke Skywalker cannot possibly be a desklamp.

Zeus cannot possibly be a fascist because his "people" do not have free will. He does, but he can be no more a fascist than a hive can be fascist. When he looks over Las Vegas with his recently-turned zombie soldier followers, it is clear that they are not in control, but he is. In all likelihood, this is simply something to do with the nanomachines. Whatever the case, you need agency among a population before you have any form of fascism. He is, however, a genocidal monster. Quite literally. They aren't victims in any sense, except perhaps once they were victims before they were turned. But no longer.

Judakel fucked around with this message at 05:08 on Jul 3, 2021

# ? Jul 3, 2021 02:28

SuperMechagodzilla: Jun 9, 2007; NEWT REBORN

Judakel posted:

The zombies have a common ideology, a common culture, are large in numbers, and are settled for the time being. They are a tribe.

That is not the definition of �tribe�.

So, where did you get this from?

I was initially going off my own knowledge, but I figured I�d be charitable and do some research for you. In my efforts, I have been unable to find any source that agrees with you. The closest I�ve found is an entry in Encyclopedia Britannica, which says that your use of the term is outdated but persists as �a technical shorthand in college courses, documentaries, and popular reference works.� (Anthropologists prefer the term �ethnic group�.)

The EB also says that, even in those informal contexts, you are using the term incorrectly: �tribe� is, there, a collection of distinct communities (e.g. villages) who collaborate and whose members share a self-name. The group in the film is not divided in any such way, and has no evident self-name.

I could do more detailed research for you, but that isn�t really necessary. More than half your post is just you insisting that you are �smart� without actually saying anything. Your only citation is the abstract concept of �anthropology class�.

Also, your use of the term �expansionism� remains incorrect. Your notion of �minor expansionism�, which you use to describe the opposite of expansionism, was invented out of whole cloth.

It is not going well for you. You need to be truthful and accurate.

# ? Jul 3, 2021 05:33

DeimosRising: Oct 17, 2005; �Hola SEA!

Judakel posted:

The term tribe is still used in anthropology and taught in anthropology classes to this day.

I did a quick and informal check of some of my colleagues who teach anth101 or similar courses (I asked in a group chat). None of them teach this term except in an historiographic sense, explaining the changes in thought on cultural evolution. I�d be interested in when/where you�re seeing classes that are still teaching band/tribe/chiefdom/state as a model

# ? Jul 6, 2021 12:38

Judakel: Jul 29, 2004; Can't post for 9 years!

SuperMechagodzilla posted:

That is not the definition of �tribe�.

So, where did you get this from?

I was initially going off my own knowledge, but I figured I�d be charitable and do some research for you. In my efforts, I have been unable to find any source that agrees with you. The closest I�ve found is an entry in Encyclopedia Britannica, which says that your use of the term is outdated but persists as �a technical shorthand in college courses, documentaries, and popular reference works.� (Anthropologists prefer the term �ethnic group�.)

The EB also says that, even in those informal contexts, you are using the term incorrectly: �tribe� is, there, a collection of distinct communities (e.g. villages) who collaborate and whose members share a self-name. The group in the film is not divided in any such way, and has no evident self-name.

I could do more detailed research for you, but that isn�t really necessary. More than half your post is just you insisting that you are �smart� without actually saying anything. Your only citation is the abstract concept of �anthropology class�.

Also, your use of the term �expansionism� remains incorrect. Your notion of �minor expansionism�, which you use to describe the opposite of expansionism, was invented out of whole cloth.

It is not going well for you. You need to be truthful and accurate.

That most definitely falls within the definition of tribe. I can tell you were going off of your own knowledge because you did not know what tribe meant. You don't need to do any research for me because I actually studied it. Thank you for verying that the use of the term tribe remains in use as a technical shorthand, which is what I utilized it as. You have, once again, granted me my point. The zombies in the film are clearly self-divided into different communities, with shamblers and alphas being distinct and living apart. Yet they still belong to the same tribe. Their inability to speak in a way we can understand might be part of the reason they do not have a name, but anything conscious and with that level of cognition names itself. Are you suggesting they are animals? I doubt it, since you seem to think they are smarter than that.

You really need to stop pretending you know what you are talking about.

There is no minor expansionism, there is simply expansionism and what it is reduced to when one cannot physically escape an enclosure. The fact that they do not have enough room to place many of their tribe and yet continue to transform humans makes their expansionist mindset the most parsimonious explanation. You've already lost this argument multiple times. First, you start by saying that they're a family, which you quickly give up on before shifting the goalposts to claiming that expansionism is not what they are doing; you did this without realizing that I've already stated multiple times that they cannot physically expand, but their goal is clearly to do so given their behavior and the lack of suitable space for shamblers and alphas. Not many people shift their goalposts to be LESS contradictory to their opponent's point.

DeimosRising posted:

I did a quick and informal check of some of my colleagues who teach anth101 or similar courses (I asked in a group chat). None of them teach this term except in an historiographic sense, explaining the changes in thought on cultural evolution. I�d be interested in when/where you�re seeing classes that are still teaching band/tribe/chiefdom/state as a model

A quick google search reveals multiple links to multiple universities using it on their course sites and excerpts from slides used in courses.

Judakel fucked around with this message at 20:38 on Aug 21, 2021

# ? Aug 21, 2021 20:33

Simply Simon: Nov 6, 2010; 📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔

You worked one and a half months to formulate the most perfectly tedious post nobody in their right mind would read, huh

# ? Aug 21, 2021 20:38

Judakel: Jul 29, 2004; Can't post for 9 years!

Simply Simon posted:

You worked one and a half months to formulate the most perfectly tedious post nobody in their right mind would read, huh

It doesn't take that long to dismiss SMG. I just forgot.

# ? Aug 21, 2021 20:40

Roth: Jul 9, 2016

"I just forgot I swear"

# ? Aug 21, 2021 21:03

Judakel: Jul 29, 2004; Can't post for 9 years!

Roth posted:

"I just forgot I swear"

Sorry to see your boy doing to poorly.

# ? Aug 21, 2021 21:12

Guy A. Person: May 23, 2003

Tbf we will have to wait for his response in 46 days

# ? Aug 21, 2021 21:13

Judakel: Jul 29, 2004; Can't post for 9 years!

Guy A. Person posted:

Tbf we will have to wait for his response in 46 days

Possibly more given how prone my opponent is to granting me my point.

# ? Aug 21, 2021 21:17

McCloud: Oct 27, 2005

Roth posted:

"I just forgot I swear"

lol

# ? Aug 21, 2021 23:01

SuperMechagodzilla: Jun 9, 2007; NEWT REBORN

You spent weeks trying to produce a source and just wrote "school" lol.

Judakel posted:

The zombies in the film are clearly self-divided into different communities, with shamblers and alphas being distinct and living apart. Yet they still belong to the same tribe.

There are two groups that live apart and have no interaction with each-other in the movie. To prove that they are a 'tribe', you are saying "they are a tribe". You give no reason, but it's presumably because they look similar. Similar skin tones, for example?

So you are grouping disparate communities together (insofar as the hibernating zombies can be called a community) based on their skin tone and arbitrarily applying outdated anthropological labels to categorize them. Why are you doing that?

Also, you are still using the term 'expansionism' incorrectly to refer to an unfalsifiable "mindset". That suggests that you possess an "eating poop mindset". See the trouble with that?

Weeks!

# ? Aug 22, 2021 14:51

Slugworth: Feb 18, 2001; If two grown men can't make a pervert happy for a few minutes in order to watch a film about zombies, then maybe we should all just move to Iran!

Just because the argument has been brought back from the dead, I would like to point out that zoonotic diseases very often have very similar symptoms between species, including rabies, which to my mind is probably the most obvious analog to a zombie virus. I'm not saying it *is* a virus, but tiger zombie in no way rules it out.

# ? Aug 22, 2021 15:01

DeimosRising: Oct 17, 2005; �Hola SEA!

Judakel posted:

A quick google search reveals multiple links to multiple universities using it on their course sites and excerpts from slides used in courses.

Lmao ok. I got this whole drat doctorate and I can�t even big boy a know it all on the internet, what was it all for

# ? Aug 22, 2021 19:33

CelticPredator: Oct 11, 2013; 🍀👽🆚🪖🏋

# ? Aug 22, 2021 19:34

Ghosthotel: Dec 27, 2008

DeimosRising posted:

Lmao ok. I got this whole drat doctorate and I can�t even big boy a know it all on the internet, what was it all for

Lmao idiot you got a doctorate when you could�ve just done a quick google search

# ? Aug 22, 2021 20:03

Guy A. Person: May 23, 2003

Slugworth posted:

Just because the argument has been brought back from the dead,

Somehow ~~Palpatine~~ this argument returned

# ? Aug 22, 2021 20:50

DeimosRising: Oct 17, 2005; �Hola SEA!

Ghosthotel posted:

Lmao idiot you got a doctorate when you could�ve just done a quick google search

Could have saved myself a lot of time, huge mistake in retrospect

# ? Aug 22, 2021 22:30

josh04: Oct 19, 2008; "THE FLASH IS THE REASON
TO RACE TO THE THEATRES"
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DeimosRising posted:

Could have saved myself a lot of time, huge mistake in retrospect

This is a very commonly held opinion among PhDs, don't worry.

# ? Aug 22, 2021 22:44

DeimosRising: Oct 17, 2005; �Hola SEA!

josh04 posted:

This is a very commonly held opinion among PhDs, don't worry.

Oh I know. Fortunately I�m also a masochist

# ? Aug 23, 2021 00:26

DOPE FIEND KILLA G: Jun 4, 2011

hey SuperMechagodzilla big fan here mind if i hang in your bathroom and watch you poo poo

# ? Aug 23, 2021 19:11

Carly Gay Dead Son: Aug 27, 2007; Bonus.

DOPE FIEND KILLA G posted:

hey SuperMechagodzilla big fan here mind if i hang in your bathroom and watch you poo poo

Hey jackoff, take a number and get in line like the rest of us.

# ? Aug 23, 2021 20:06

moist turtleneck: Jul 17, 2003; Represent.; Dinosaur Gum

SMG tombstone but there's just a stack of binders with nerd rebuttals to posts piled on the grave instead of flowers

# ? Aug 23, 2021 20:21

McCloud: Oct 27, 2005

Just a reminder, Army of Thieves, a film set during the outbreak of the zombie-virus in New Vegas, is going to be released on Netflix on October 29th. Directed by Mathias Schweigh�fer and produced by the Snyders, it focuses on the safe-cracker (lol) Deiter being recruited into a heist team to try and crack the siblings to the Gotdammarung safe we see in Army of the dead.

Here's a trailer for that:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ith2WetKXlg

# ? Oct 24, 2021 18:11

Ghost Leviathan: Mar 2, 2017; Exploration is ill-advised.

Lol that I'm not the only one who reflexively types New Vegas

# ? Oct 25, 2021 05:29

Assepoester: Jul 18, 2004; Can't post for 10 years!; Melman v2

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/UnlawfulHeartyChanticleer-mobile.mp4

# ? Oct 25, 2021 06:13

Roth: Jul 9, 2016

Yeah, who is that major character from the first movie?

# ? Oct 25, 2021 06:40

VROOM VROOM: Jun 8, 2005

Might have been talking about the director and not the character. Fortunately in this case they appear to be the same person!

Also I thought this was ok

# ? Oct 25, 2021 06:59

McCloud: Oct 27, 2005

Ghost Leviathan posted:

Lol that I'm not the only one who reflexively types New Vegas

Lol god damnit

I'm leaving that as is now

Yes Mathias whatever is the guy that played the safecracking twink

# ? Oct 25, 2021 12:18

KVeezy3: Aug 18, 2005; Airport Music for Black Folk

McCloud posted:

Just a reminder, Army of Thieves, a film set during the outbreak of the zombie-virus in New Vegas, is going to be released on Netflix on October 29th. Directed by Mathias Schweigh�fer and produced by the Snyders, it focuses on the safe-cracker (lol) Deiter being recruited into a heist team to try and crack the siblings to the Gotdammarung safe we see in Army of the dead.

Here's a trailer for that:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ith2WetKXlg

Looks neat. Doing a prequel spinoff propelled by the financial instability rooted in the prior film's outbreak event is some pretty inspired franchise thinking.

# ? Oct 25, 2021 17:45

Assepoester: Jul 18, 2004; Can't post for 10 years!; Melman v2

https://twitter.com/theeSNYDERVERSE/status/1452004568880013320

McCloud posted:

Yes Mathias whatever is the guy that played the safecracking twink

Why is he the director now

# ? Oct 25, 2021 18:24

GORDON: Jan 1, 2006; by Fluffdaddy

They seem to be doing a lot of fleshing out of a movie that seemingly no one liked.

# ? Oct 25, 2021 18:43

2house2fly: Nov 14, 2012; You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!

The United States posted:

https://twitter.com/theeSNYDERVERSE/status/1452004568880013320

the gom jabbar scene def made me think "the future has taken root in the present"

# ? Oct 25, 2021 18:55

bushisms.txt: May 26, 2004; Scroll, then. There are other posts than these.

GORDON posted:

They seem to be doing a lot of fleshing out of a movie that seemingly no one liked.

Army is a top 10 all time viewed Netflix movie lol

bushisms.txt fucked around with this message at 19:55 on Oct 25, 2021

# ? Oct 25, 2021 19:53

Megaman's Jockstrap: Jul 16, 2000; What a horrible thread to have a post.

bushisms.txt posted:

Army is a top 10 all time viewed Netflix movie lol

Presumably all those viewers hate watched it since Snyder's name was flogged to death by Netflix and it's impossible to find anyone who likes his directing style or would recommend one of his movies. heh

# ? Oct 25, 2021 20:47

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# ? May 2, 2024 00:11

moist turtleneck: Jul 17, 2003; Represent.; Dinosaur Gum

The netflix numbers never make any sense and I have to assume that any autoplay preview gets counted in those lists

# ? Oct 25, 2021 20:53

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > Cinema Discusso > Zack Snyders Army of the Dead: Army of Thieves: Blond Twink Edition

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