[Marx] I put on my anti-coat and wizard hat

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > C-SPAM > [Marx] I put on my anti-coat and wizard hat

(Thread IKs: dead gay comedy forums)

scary ghost dog: Aug 5, 2007

Truga posted:

i thought fyad was cool kids and today i learn it was actually full of cowards when i tried to reply to the thread and it's already locked lmao

you can reply to any of the threads that are actually in fyad instead of trying to reply to one in the fyad gas chamber. ganbare

# ¿ May 16, 2021 12:45

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ¿ May 9, 2024 23:26

scary ghost dog: Aug 5, 2007

Dustcat posted:

congrats to fyad for purging the communists. gentlemen, you have a reich... if you can keep it

youre going to have only very small windows in which you can post for a while.....and i know youre the exact kind of psycho thats going to try to sneak a qcs thread in lol

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

# ¿ May 16, 2021 13:41

scary ghost dog: Aug 5, 2007

fart simpson posted:

Has there been a political revolution that has turned out better for the people, in general, as opposed to those who end up on top?

I don't mean counter revolution, which are usually a return to the ante revolutionary status quo, due to the revolution sucking balls.

Like the American Revolution, lots of colonists died, and very little changed for them. Slavery was preserved and natives got screwed.

French revolution royally hosed France*, and much of Europe was plunged into 40 years of warfare.

*2 million french dead by 1815.

Has there been a good one?

the cuban revolution

# ¿ Feb 1, 2024 13:39

scary ghost dog: Aug 5, 2007

if the rate of profit doesnt tend to fall, then it tends to increase or stay the same. which doesnt even make sense to fullblooded capitalists, who are always diversifying their portfolios and making big bets. i cant even imagine a universe where the tendency of the rate of profit was to increase or stay the same. its like imagining a universe where electricity flows like molasses

# ¿ Feb 7, 2024 21:35

scary ghost dog: Aug 5, 2007

The Voice of Labor posted:

could you rephrase that in the language of one piece please?

its like if the celestial dragons got rugged and attractive over the generations instead of turning into sheltered inbred freaks. once you completely rule the world with an unshakeable grip from the holy land at the top of the red line theres nowhere to go but back down into the sea�..or fairy vearth i guess

# ¿ Feb 8, 2024 05:45

scary ghost dog: Aug 5, 2007

BillsPhoenix posted:

That was more arrogant than intended.

I'm not saying anyone here is wrong. My analogy would be philosophy vs physics. It's just fundamentally different.

youre trying to argue that entropy doesnt exist because our sun hasnt shown any sign of losing its heat

# ¿ Feb 8, 2024 22:38

scary ghost dog: Aug 5, 2007

BillsPhoenix posted:

My biggest issue right now is an inability to level set. If I can't verify what how Marx is using the terms, or where I'm misunderstanding... it's chaos.

I agree with the theory of surplus value. I disagree with trpf being an inevitable end to capitalism, which puts me at odds with most of the rest of Marxs theories.

youre a dumbass

# ¿ Feb 8, 2024 22:39

scary ghost dog: Aug 5, 2007

youre all engaging with a person that cant reconcile their worldview with the concept of �what goes up must come down�

# ¿ Feb 8, 2024 22:40

scary ghost dog: Aug 5, 2007

BillsPhoenix posted:

Except my worldview aligns worth the world as is today. Capitalism hasn't imploded.

As opposed to the view the collapse is inevitable because of Marxist theories, and eventually this must be proven true. It just.... hasn't yet.

does it??? do you live in a world with no tarnish, no rusted-out car chassis stacked up in the scrapyard, no corporations hollowed out by capital as their rate of profit began to fall????? do you live in america????????

# ¿ Feb 8, 2024 23:00

scary ghost dog: Aug 5, 2007

BillsPhoenix posted:

Truth. First it was the existence of only 1, absolute truth. God is truth and truth is God (or the word). A marvelously simple way to explain literally everything, while ignoring anything.

Then truth became relative, personal, societal, communal, physical earth, universal, etc. Which without any philosophical background, is messy af.

well if youre devoutly faithful in the concept of an infinitely powerful god then i understand why youre having trouble understanding the concept of entropy

# ¿ Feb 8, 2024 23:27

scary ghost dog: Aug 5, 2007

if God is a capitalist, which He must be because America is, then the rate of profit can no more fall than God himself can err. QED

# ¿ Feb 8, 2024 23:29

scary ghost dog: Aug 5, 2007

BillsPhoenix posted:

Bethany - aka the unincorporated evangelical cults.

Isn't entropy... proven? As in its a hard science law, practical real world applications are used? It's only the application of entropy to global climate crises that's "debated?

yeah. you can see evidence of entropy in every single process that occurs in the universe. one way that entropy manifests in economics is in the tendency of the rate of profit to fall

# ¿ Feb 8, 2024 23:34

scary ghost dog: Aug 5, 2007

V. Illych L. posted:

the law of the tendency of the rate of profit to fall has some apparently sound formalised counter-arguments (it does not mathematically follow from definitions), most notably the okishio theorem. this means that it is possible to imagine a world in which the rate of profit does not tend to fall.

the weight of observations does not seem to bear out that this is the world in which we're living, however

perfectly spherical earth theory aka PSET suggests that Marx was mistaken about TRPF because he had assumed we were living on an oblate spheroid, not taking into account that if that were true then the earth wouldnt look round from space.

# ¿ Feb 8, 2024 23:42

scary ghost dog: Aug 5, 2007

V. Illych L. posted:

imo what okishio does (i think he himself suggested this?) is demonstrate that TRPF has to be a historical law of capitalism, i.e. it has to be a tendency which is demonstrated through the study of actual economic developments. this is important because it means it cannot simply be asserted, and actual investigation does have to take place to test whether there is indeed such a tendency.

the intuition behind the law of the tendency of the rate of profit to fall is imo perfectly sound, both in the market-share version and the emerging-competition version. the question of whether an aggregate rate of profit can be sustained through technological innovation is imo the only real one here, and given investor behaviour in recent years i would say that signs point to "no"

billspheonix is desperately looking up the functional perpetual motion machine that hes sure he heard about a few years ago

# ¿ Feb 8, 2024 23:52

scary ghost dog: Aug 5, 2007

The Voice of Labor posted:

in a glorious socialist utopia the rate of profit won't be declining because profit will be a nonapplicable concept. but earth's still a closed system. what's the end game; continued diminishing returns but called something else, stasis because the level of material development is comfortable enough that no one really longs for more, "stasis" because intellectual labor power among fully realized human beings is so highly developed that constant better ways to do things offsets diminishing resources?

capitalism is charts that look like this

communism is charts that look like this

# ¿ Feb 9, 2024 13:21

scary ghost dog: Aug 5, 2007

BillsPhoenix posted:

If profit is negative, it will end. If it's simply zero, the company continues in perpetuity as is.

In theory perfect world, profit would be limited to a minimum of zero?

if its zero or less then it isnt profit

# ¿ Feb 15, 2024 01:54

scary ghost dog: Aug 5, 2007

supply and demand only seems to function properly when trading commodities with zero use-value. i assume that its a principle invented solely for convincing commodity traders that they arent getting ripped off, or explaining to workers that the surplus value they generate is actually hiding somewhere in arbitrage and not being funnelled into the boss�s pockets

# ¿ Feb 22, 2024 19:44

scary ghost dog: Aug 5, 2007

BillsPhoenix posted:

I don't believe in objective economic data. It does not exist. With immense effort, on extremely narrow topics, decent confidence interval can be derived. Sometimes.

I'm not ever going to be able to prove something to someone that believes only capitalism suffers from incentived behaviors that drive inaccurate economic data.

It's kinda like how the MAGA argument 'prove me wrong goes'. The insults reinforce the comparison.

i love the reactionary tendency to dismiss entire aspects of reality with �i dont believe in it� as though thats an acceptable excuse. i simply dont believe in entropy. its a matter of opinion whether or not vaccines cause autism. you can lose weight without restricting calories.

# ¿ Feb 22, 2024 22:01

scary ghost dog: Aug 5, 2007

BillsPhoenix posted:

Last reply as there's good discussions going on.

No poo poo a western educated economist would fail a Marxist economics course. You kept this back for a while, and it has a giant loving impact on all discourse. It's why you didn't get my references to western economic education. It's cool you got educated in marx and all, but that poo poo was really bad faith.

the weirdest thing about your posts is that they read like an illiterate is dictating them to a speech to text program. im forced to read them in a panhandle accent which forces me to imagine dewey crowe is saying them. in fact you remind me a lot of dewey crowe

# ¿ Feb 23, 2024 21:08

scary ghost dog: Aug 5, 2007

BillsPhoenix posted:

But only after consumption?

I.e. if a buy a coat, but don't take it out of the packaging, it does not yet have a use value?

Or if I buy 2 coats and only use 1, the unused coat doesn't have a use value?

Or because the coat was made to fulfill a future want/need, as soon as it was produced, it has a use value?

the use value of the coat is determined by the coat�s ability to be used, so if the coat does not exist, it has no use value.

# ¿ Mar 7, 2024 02:42

scary ghost dog: Aug 5, 2007

BillsPhoenix posted:

I'm just trying to understand if something can have a use value, then lose that use value as a result of an external change.

I'll change up the question. Instead of making a coat, someone decides to make an "anti coat". This does not keep out the ran, it serves no purpose. No wants, no need, not even the creator wants one.

Does this anti coat have a use value?

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

i think this is what NFTs are

# ¿ Mar 8, 2024 02:06

scary ghost dog: Aug 5, 2007

dead gay comedy forums posted:

nfts have speculative purposes tho

i dont think they do anymore

# ¿ Mar 8, 2024 02:43

scary ghost dog: Aug 5, 2007

Ferrinus posted:

i had a brief, weird discussion with a guy in a bar who was like you walk down the street and what do you see everywhere you look? that's right, rainbow flags!!!

when i pointed out that he was seeing those flags hanging on privately owned businesses, and those businesses on private land, and that land patrolled by about eight thousand cops all playing candy crush, etc, he seemed nonplussed

so when you told him that, he seemed shocked and confused?

# ¿ Mar 11, 2024 17:13

scary ghost dog: Aug 5, 2007

unfortunatley i must ask for clarification whenever i see anyone use the word nonplussed. its impossible to know what people mean by it unless they add a redundant adjective for context

# ¿ Mar 11, 2024 17:23

scary ghost dog: Aug 5, 2007

Ferrinus posted:

that's why i look it up every time i'm about to use it, to make SURE i haven't managed to misremember it this time around so as to end up losing rather than gaining posting cred

i only say it out loud so i can silently stare at the person i said it to until they either correct me or applaud me for using it correctly

# ¿ Mar 11, 2024 17:39

scary ghost dog: Aug 5, 2007

BillsPhoenix posted:

I would recommend mapping it out, using long form c, if you're failing to see the contradiction. The contradiction specifically only applies for to "machines" used to produce.

And there are defenses of this contradiction.

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

converting language into mathematics using set theory to disprove marx by calculating that the sum of his propositions is non-zero ftw

# ¿ Mar 12, 2024 18:56

scary ghost dog: Aug 5, 2007

Aeolius posted:

i've responded to bill like 8 times with answers and questions for him to think about in turn, and he ignored them all � except for the one time he could misrepresent my remark about the problem of induction in an open system (i.e., his "welp,
proof is impossible & so is debate, evidence, and reason" reaction). so, it's hard to read him as a good-faith interlocutor, even with the charity dial cranked up to max.

so: is wasting more time on him like throwing good money after bad? probably not, if he's mouthing off about a topic some less vocal reader of the thread is also likely to be confused about. remember: public discourse is mostly performance. bill's someone who made up his mind about some things ages ago, and reasons from those incoherent conclusions with great motivation, so we won't convince him that the sky is blue. but we can at least play gallant to his goofus for those following along

it's pretty much like the time-honored practice of rubber duck debugging, but for marxist fundamentals � both in terms of the benefits to the explainers and the retention of the ducky

its also pretty funny

# ¿ Mar 12, 2024 20:36

scary ghost dog: Aug 5, 2007

BillsPhoenix posted:

So when a machine is made, it absorbs surplus value from that machine.

it seems like your argument is predicated on the existence of �that machine.� can you explain what �that machine� is

# ¿ Mar 16, 2024 01:22

scary ghost dog: Aug 5, 2007

BillsPhoenix posted:

Anyhow, this has run its course, those comments aren't trolls. Sraffa has a whole book about it, Keen has a shorter paper, I obviously can't prove it out in a couple posts.

This only went on so long cause some people were abusing the poo poo out of the entropy explanation- which has been posited as a cause of decline in world profitability, not an analogy.

Learn and grow so you can fight the good fight or don't.

do you imagine �fighting the good fight� to be looking for inconsistencies in karl marx�s diction

# ¿ Mar 18, 2024 22:09

scary ghost dog: Aug 5, 2007

ive been thinking really hard about whether or not its possible for something with zero potential use value to exist in a thermodynamically consistent universe since the subject was first brought up and i havent been able to come up with anything. if it exists, then it can be used for something

# ¿ Apr 13, 2024 11:27

scary ghost dog: Aug 5, 2007

dead gay comedy forums posted:

Which also ties to how the labor theory of value is a massive intellectual enterprise that we honestly just finished the basic levels for

which ties with this: the cool far-out-there Marxist conceptualists (whose work is more akin to sci-fi than theorycraft) propose that the definite solution to the material value question is energy, as it is an universal and absolute physical quantitative. It's definitely possible to calculate all energy costs in input/output for economic activity and thus have pricing and whatnot, so currency can be anchored in direct allotments of it. The neat thing about that is that allows (iirc) the best appreciation of use-value for anything into a practical reference that can also be exchange-value, so nothing is actually "useless", it just requires labor to be made into something else

thats pretty much my train of thought. if x is the smallest unit of existence from which all matter and energy is constructed, and its quantity is anything other than zero, then x has a use-value

# ¿ Apr 14, 2024 15:59

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ¿ May 9, 2024 23:26

scary ghost dog: Aug 5, 2007

Bald Stalin posted:

Does Marxism point to the big bang or a simulation or both or something else?

marxism is only applicable to human behavior and i suppose some crows

# ¿ Apr 15, 2024 04:40

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > C-SPAM > [Marx] I put on my anti-coat and wizard hat