(Thread IKs:
dead gay comedy forums)
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I like Marx but I hate nearly every other thinker who has stapled their lovely ideologies to his work and name including you Engels, you goddamned coattail rider
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May 15, 2021 22:30
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| # ¿ May 10, 2024 12:44 |
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apropos to nothing posted:since the old threads in fyad you all better be nice to me or ill destroy your asses. oh, and i might also give you 6 hour probes I'd like to see you try (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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May 15, 2021 22:33
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Bot 02 posted:I'm lazy as poo poo, so I'll use this opportunity to ask C-SPAM what the differences between Capital vol 1, 2, and 3 are. Also, if they're worth reading and what you learn from them. It is incredibly arduous reading. Philosophers of that era (especially the German ones) were not known for their brevity and so much of the length of their books are making an assertion and then proving it out with example after example. I won't say you'd get nothing out of it but you really need to be of a certain inclination to enjoy those sorts of books. Don't feel bad if it puts you off and don't trust people who insist it's required to sit through them to have a seat at the discussion tables. Also so much of what Marx was presented in his writings is kinda commonplace/just part of our understanding of the world now, it's so entrenched, so it will not really read as revelatory as it may have in the context of its own time.
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May 15, 2021 22:54
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Is this the Maxim thread
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May 17, 2021 03:02
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tokin opposition posted:i have an ear ache and it hurts, did marx ever consider this No but the IWW did and an injury to one is an injury to all
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May 18, 2021 16:08
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F Stop Fitzgerald posted:anti-theory "communists" are invariably all actually just socdems, anarchists, or some other flavor of annoying orthodox/anti-revisionist. if in the western hemisphere likely a trot whether they know it or not. dont let that be you.. Seems like it's pretty hard to have a labor movement if you're weeding out most of the laborers because they don't like reading 19th century economics books
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May 18, 2021 17:42
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Celot posted:idk about that, but all critical thinkers are anti-theory. Theory, including Marxism, is not a valid way of knowing. It is like received wisdom. I'm with Bakhtin in thinking that life is a dialogue and you learn more about the world and yourself by engaging with it and the people in it. Treating Marx/theory as a touchstone is a monologic way of interacting with the world that ignores that 200 years of poo poo has happened since that may better inform ways of engaging with other humans in building a better world for our common happiness.
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May 18, 2021 17:56
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Ferrinus posted:i really do urge people to just read capital itself, together with comrades if possible. it does help to know that marx is writing much of it in a defensive mode such that he's predicting and preemptively disarming bad-faith objections that his liberal contemporaries might have to various points An overly defensive theory-obsessed upper-class, well educated leftist Yeah I can see why that figure resonates with the movement (I kid) (mostly) (but think about it)
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May 18, 2021 18:10
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AnimeIsTrash posted:Reading theory? I'd rather be sucking on some juicy tits instead. Why choose 
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May 18, 2021 18:52
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Celot posted:No, Marxism is invalid. It takes something that should be a contingent truth, an observation, and makes it an assumption instead. Cause and effect itself is an assumption, if you're not comfortable with making base assumptions then the only thing left is literal unknowable chaos which is a fair argument but not a very long conversation
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May 18, 2021 19:01
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Celot posted:No you misunderstand me. If science could explain tides and not-tides given otherwise the same observations, then it would be useless. tides and not tides have the same explanation of gravitational pull what are you saying what is going on I'm not even a diehard and your argument confounds and frustrates me
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May 18, 2021 19:04
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Cpt_Obvious posted:If the existence of tides and the lack of tides are both explained by the same theory, that's a point in it's favor. If a theory were to predict that there should ALWAYS be tides and then we found a pond that didn't have any, that would require said theory to either be revised or discarded. Alternatively, listening to Jeff Goldblum's chaos theory diatribe from Jurassic Park enough times does not make you a scientist or a philosopher
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May 18, 2021 19:11
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Celot posted:Being totally hosed up by war and poverty in Russia and being totally hosed up by war and poverty in Iraq. Do you think Russians didn't do the equivalent of what we would call terror attacks during their numerous uprisings and revolutions?
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May 18, 2021 19:40
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If anything a cleaner analogue might be the westernization of Petrine Russia because it was a cultural assimilation/destruction of "traditional" Russia and further loving of the peasants and the response was a huge nationalistic pushback from the serfs and Cossacks who formed or further entrenched their own territories (oblasts) as a reaction So... yeah
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May 18, 2021 19:55
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Malleum posted:just want to point out that there literally were a bunch of uprisings in russian turkestan starting in 1916 and going all throughout the russian civil war, with the end-goal of a unified muslim superstate in central asia. that famous guy everyone hates, enver pasha, was even one of its leaders. And that one of the goals during the numerous 17-1800s rebellions was the reestablishment of the Russian Orthodox church as the de facto authority over the tsars
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May 18, 2021 20:10
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Jon Joe posted:Wouldn't just about any analysis conclude "the currently ongoing rising power of fundamentalist religious groups in the middle east will continue"? Sudden negative changes to living conditions and the displacement of a powerful religious faction resulting in that religious faction's leadership using the poor conditions of the lower class to instigate violence in the name of religion is exactly what the Orthodox church did in response to Peter
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May 18, 2021 20:25
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Celot posted:The answer is actually no. The mass movement was communism, and they established a secular state. Now explain away Pugachev's Rebellion
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May 18, 2021 20:39
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Celot posted:What about it? Good Soldier Svejk posted:Sudden negative changes to living conditions and the displacement of a powerful religious faction resulting in that religious faction's leadership using the poor conditions of the lower class to instigate violence in the name of religion is exactly what the Orthodox church did in response to Peter
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May 18, 2021 20:47
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Also isn't a fundamental difference that the conflict that gave rise to ISIS was an external antagonist and the 1917 revolution was citizens against internal antagonists (one of which being the oppressive arm of the Russian Orthodox church itself) How is that in any way comparable
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May 18, 2021 20:57
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Ferrinus posted:this is why the sciences i like to compare marxism to are things like astronomy and plate tectonics If I drop a spark into a pile of wood shavings, it may catch fire or it may not but I'm drat certain the more sparks I drop into that pile of wood shavings, the more likely it is to catch fire That's my Marxism
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May 18, 2021 21:01
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Celot posted:Russia went secular. How are you not getting that in either case, the lower class was taken in by the group promising better living conditions. There is no presupposition that strife is going to result in a religious uprising, it's going to be the people who are getting poo poo on siding with whichever group promises them material improvement (in some cases that's a church, sometimes it's revolutionaries, etc) The pattern of rebellious action holds but the forces which create the lovely conditions are not the same so why would the response be the same?
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May 18, 2021 21:19
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Celot posted:Material conditions are worse under ISIS than under a colonial government. That's only a refutation if you think ISIS is an end state
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May 18, 2021 21:27
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eh, this one has gone from the "just asking questions" phase to the "I'm not touching you" explicit trolling
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May 18, 2021 21:33
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what the hell do you think gives fringe factions a foothold if conditions are fine in a country?
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May 18, 2021 21:34
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pushpins posted:How come marxism didn't predict the Bernie campaign eating poo poo Marx himself didn't dispute the possibility of incremental change as a means to building a socialist state but some of his acolytes surely did
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May 18, 2021 21:37
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Celot posted:No religious fundamentalism, no religious fundamentalist movement. I'd love to know the control society you have in mind that doesn't have at least some fractured religious faction that exploits the working class to gain or maintain their authority with the promise of a better life/afterlife
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May 18, 2021 21:45
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Celot posted:If they weren’t a bunch of lunatics, they wouldn’t be Muslim fundamentalists. This is not a material condition, it is an internal mental state. Quoting so you can't edit the mask off moment
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May 18, 2021 21:47
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Celot posted:Muslim fundamentalists are of sound mind, or what? What would you suggest is the cause of the lack of their "soundness of mind"
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May 18, 2021 21:55
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Celot posted:Because they believe whacky stuff. Why do they believe it? Idk I don’t see the appeal. so your scientific explanation is "for the gently caress of it"?
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May 18, 2021 21:57
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Celot posted:Still doing the bit where you pretend to be offended by the notion that religious fundamentalism is crazy. Weird. Well if it's not completely random chance and it's not an environmental/material cause, how does fundamentalism propagate itself?
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May 18, 2021 22:00
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My god you were so certain about everything a few pages ago I wonder what changed
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May 18, 2021 22:01
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Celot posted:As a reaction to being bombed a bunch, and also a lot of people being crazy religious nuts. If you only have the first part, then you would get a reaction but not a religious state. you appear to be teetering on the edge of understanding something but defaulting to the easy racist inclinations
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May 18, 2021 22:03
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Celot posted:The racism is something you have imagined. It's implicit. If it's not random chance, and it's not environmental, what predisposes people to being converted into religious fundamentalism? What's left in your bag of scientific analysis?
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May 18, 2021 22:08
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QUEER FRASIER posted:I was sort of annoyed at this for a bit but it’s actually turned into a great object lesson, for the doubters among us, of why theory really is important I renounce my accusations of gatekeeping (at least in this thread) because I could not handle a loving room full of Celots let alone this one
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May 18, 2021 22:11
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Celot posted:I have no idea what causes some people to be religious nuts and others not to be. Neither do you. Why are you pretending that they aren’t crazy, I don’t understand. Why not be honest instead? In a Marxist reading, it's the material conditions. What is your refutation? "No it's not"? Oh well thank you for your insightful contribution you loving first year dropout contrarian
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May 18, 2021 22:15
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QUEER FRASIER posted:now you see why the theory people get so testy!! scarred from years of encounters with celots I didn't consider that is was to keep out the Dunning-Kruger proofs and now I can see immediately why but I still think it has negative implications for engaging the working class
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May 18, 2021 22:20
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Celot posted:I’m sorry you feel that way, and that this is keeping you from acknowledging a plainly obvious fact. please state simply the plainly obvious fact
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May 18, 2021 22:20
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Celot posted:Religious fundamentalists are crazy. Do you mean this for all literal fundamentalists? Mormons? Orthodox Christian and Jewish? Papists and Baptists?
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May 18, 2021 22:32
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Yossarian-22 posted:marx basically threw out the idea of incrementally winning socialism through elections after louis bonaparte became the first elected leader of the third republic I won't rule out the possibility that he left himself an out to appease the powers but I am interested in any further writing he did on the subject
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May 18, 2021 23:04
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| # ¿ May 10, 2024 12:44 |
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StashAugustine posted:Iirc theres a legend that a bunch of Kievan Rus were on the verge of converting to Islam until they explained the whole "no booze" thing I mean if that extended to kvass, I get it. Whole towns and cities would die of thirst or dysentery
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May 18, 2021 23:16
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