[Marx] I put on my anti-coat and wizard hat

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > C-SPAM > [Marx] I put on my anti-coat and wizard hat

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Hefty Leftist: Jun 26, 2011; "You know how vodka or whiskey are distilled multiple times to taste good? It's the same with shit. After being digested for the third time shit starts to taste reeeeeeaaaally yummy."

someone make this thread good and post the productive forces video

# ¿ May 21, 2021 06:11

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# ¿ May 21, 2024 04:35

Hefty Leftist: Jun 26, 2011; "You know how vodka or whiskey are distilled multiple times to taste good? It's the same with shit. After being digested for the third time shit starts to taste reeeeeeaaaally yummy."

has there been any marxist analysis written on the rise of support for social democracy over the last 10 years, specifically bernie, corbyn etc? i want to know the class forces behind why support for social democracy has risen, especially in inner-city areas of the west. there's an emphasis that it's a purely working class movement but i'm not convinced of that all, my (very) rudimentary hypothesis is that it's far more based in middle-class/bourgeois opposition that's attempting to win over the working class in contrast to established support of neoliberalism in the bourgeoisie. also wondering if overaccumulation in capitalism is creating a crisis of faith in neoliberalism or not. i'd love to do more reading on this because i think it's an important topic to understand, especially going forward now that neo-keynesianism social democracy has more or less fallen completely flat in the west with its defeat/inevitable co-option.

Hefty Leftist has issued a correction as of 09:06 on Sep 12, 2021

# ¿ Sep 12, 2021 08:58

Hefty Leftist: Jun 26, 2011; "You know how vodka or whiskey are distilled multiple times to taste good? It's the same with shit. After being digested for the third time shit starts to taste reeeeeeaaaally yummy."

mcclay posted:

Marxism-Leninism by itself is a dying ideology, the real strength of the proletariat, esp in the third world, is behind marxism-leninism-maoism. embrace the line struggle comrades, it will give ur organizing a shot in the arm.

wouldn't the rise of social democracy off imperial exploitation and the outsourcing of manfacturing labor to the third world be the precise reason that MLM has remained relevant there compared to the decline/repression of MLism in the west? getting thru Imperialism in the 21st Century by John Smith which goes into this and the modern conditions of imperialism. how does one apply Marxism to and build an ML movement in the service economies of the west that are pretty much parasitic on workers in the third world?

Hefty Leftist has issued a correction as of 13:20 on Sep 27, 2021

# ¿ Sep 27, 2021 13:17

Hefty Leftist: Jun 26, 2011; "You know how vodka or whiskey are distilled multiple times to taste good? It's the same with shit. After being digested for the third time shit starts to taste reeeeeeaaaally yummy."

Red and Black posted:

https://twitter.com/communistsusa/status/1445749238034432005

CPUSA has nothing to lose but its cops

# ¿ Oct 7, 2021 11:51

Hefty Leftist: Jun 26, 2011; "You know how vodka or whiskey are distilled multiple times to taste good? It's the same with shit. After being digested for the third time shit starts to taste reeeeeeaaaally yummy."

AnimeIsTrash posted:

https://twitter.com/endsanctions/status/1446893636050821131

Lmao

hijabis hold up half the sky

# ¿ Oct 10, 2021 10:21

Hefty Leftist: Jun 26, 2011; "You know how vodka or whiskey are distilled multiple times to taste good? It's the same with shit. After being digested for the third time shit starts to taste reeeeeeaaaally yummy."

V. Illych L. posted:

yankees, why does american leftism have such a boner for demonstrated total failures kautsky and bernstein and USPD-ism

it seems very silly and it's started bleeding into countries with actual socialist traditions, please stop

the funniest thing is that the conditions of Imperial Germany that produced the SPD and its support as a mass party are so wildly different to today that it's not even a remotely relevant tradition to follow. broadly 19th century Germany was in the middle of a transition to industrial capitalism which produced the basis of support for a viable mass party (and trade unionism) from the contradiction of increased socialisation of the means of production. the idea you can take the Gotha Programme and apply it to today is absurd - nothing about Imperial Germany is applicable to contemporary western service economies (beyond broad lessons in reformism and cooption which is why Marx's critique is still relevant).

to completely generalise, i think western leftists consistently pick their very special tendency in a historical period they love and supplant it onto modern conditions blindly. they don't understand the material historical contexts and economic and social conditions they live within and fail to build anything meaningful. it's probably liberalism, or misunderstanding Marxism from how propagandised and suppressed it is. at the same time the idea you can figure out the very specific conditions that are 100% correct and that somehow would magically produce socialism is utopian but i think study is still really important

# ¿ Dec 25, 2021 16:55

Hefty Leftist: Jun 26, 2011; "You know how vodka or whiskey are distilled multiple times to taste good? It's the same with shit. After being digested for the third time shit starts to taste reeeeeeaaaally yummy."

Kindest Forums User posted:

Any western socialist party that doesn�t have a robust and up-to-date theory of imperialism supported with practical relationships in the third world is doomed to chauvinism. Take this Belgium party for example. It sounds like their primary platform is geared towards improving the conditions of the new �working-class�: the gig worker. So what happens when they win political power? They assume control of state which is deeply embedded in the structure and spoils of imperialism. They can either redirect those spoils towards the gig worker and improve their material condition: thus maintaining their political power, but as social fascists. Or, they do an about face and tell all the gig workers that their material conditions are still vastly better than the working class of the world � and we must smash our parasitic relationship with the third world, at a great sacrifice to ourselves� Unless the Belgium ML party has gone through the exhaustive lengths to prepare the western working class for that sacrifice, they will lose a two-front war against their own supporters and the global capitalists.

An enormous contradiction exists within the western leftist political parties. They recognize we live in a neoliberal globalized world where our economic system is no longer tied to borders. However they still think that a working class struggle can be resolved within western borders. Nuh-uh. The workers of the western world are tied to that global economic system, and they must be considered in that context. The western �working-class� are the petite bourgeoise of the 21st century. They all enjoy the rent, tax, tithe of the third world through exploitation and environmental destruction. Anybody who rejects this relationship is a class traitor

Modern day socialists get so giddy and excited when they think they�ve uncovered the New �working-class�. It�s the uber driver, the care worker, the amazon warehouser, the call center worker. That�s it! We get those folks into our program we will finally usher a new era of socialism!
loving mental.

The first and only successful western socialist political party will be the one that can convince westerners that when we redistributive the capitalist's wealth, you won�t be getting much� However, you will free yourself from the alienation of capitalism, and that is a great prize imo!

i appreciate the sentiment and it's incredibly necessary to understand imperialism and global exploitation, its just every successful revolution in history wasn't built on telling people "we should be worse off". Mao organises the peasantry thru retribution and land seizure from landlords. the ICP organise a revolution in Vietnam by seizing grain from the Japanese to feed the people. Lenin with peace, land and bread. you need to improve people's material conditions, not tell them they're going to get worse. i think it's that redistribution from the western bourgeoisie would be enormous enough if it was seized that all workers everywhere would improve in conditions, but most so in the third world/racialised peoples in western countries.

this point is why solidarity between race in the divided proletariat is important because it seems when those divisions are confronted on masse (like last year's protests) between workers who the bourgeoisie set up to oppose one another it produces solidarity and collaboration (which needs to be harnessed in a way/organisation not completely cooptable) that given a revolutionary situation would allow westerners to understand global redistribution.

overall the workers don't have to be punished - the western bourgeoisie just have to be to completely decimated

# ¿ Dec 26, 2021 01:49

Hefty Leftist: Jun 26, 2011; "You know how vodka or whiskey are distilled multiple times to taste good? It's the same with shit. After being digested for the third time shit starts to taste reeeeeeaaaally yummy."

can i get some recommendations on marxist critiques of social democracy? state and rev is obviously a classic but i'd like some critiques reflecting bernie and so on. someone posted a critique of the nordic model on this page which i've been meaning to read so more stuff like that would be great. there was also a great piece on the belgian PTB someone posted that was great on the lines of bourgeois governance not really reflecting power in capitalism and i'd like to read more on that take

i think the critique on social democracy is a defining one for modern marxists because it's going to/already has completely crashed and burned as the main "socialist" project of the era. the more schooled in this that i can be the better

Buck Turgidson posted:

how is that book?

it's (imperialism in the 21st century) a great analysis of trans-national corporations and the global distribution and outsourcing of labor in neoliberalism. i'm finding it particularly hard to digest tho because it's an incredibly in-depth economic analysis so if that's your thing go hog wild

Hefty Leftist has issued a correction as of 12:22 on Feb 10, 2022

# ¿ Feb 10, 2022 12:12

Hefty Leftist: Jun 26, 2011; "You know how vodka or whiskey are distilled multiple times to taste good? It's the same with shit. After being digested for the third time shit starts to taste reeeeeeaaaally yummy."

apropos to nothing posted:

np, rushed cause want to get back to video games though so long rambling post ahead. basically most of what that article says is true imo and a lot of the comments youve made regarding how bds has failed too. bds has remained largely an "activist" demand especially in the us. its something that a layer of people, mostly paid political organizers for ngos, non profits, some others, as well as college groups etc. orient around for ideological reasons but dont have any concrete strategy for affecting change. for examplei went to a palestinian solidarity event after one attack and there was no call to action, was literally just "israel sucks, palestine is hurting etc." which ok thats fine, but what use is it? there was no call to action or way to move struggle forward.

so thats first off, and this is true of all movements: you have to have demands to organize around. those can be broad or they can be specific depending on circumstance but they have to be concrete. so just blanket bds doesnt present a specific target, and even when they do like how a lot of people look at specific companies like sabra or caterpillar, theyre not anything more than a call to boycott those companies typically on an individual basis. the real action that could get things to pop off are things like organizing trade union action, so like the dock workers in mediteranean ports who during a recent round of violence actually halted a bunch of ships and refused to unload/load them because they were going to israel with weapons. that kind of action is useful. similarly, the point about israeli workers is an important one because guess what, were marxists, we see the palestinian/israeli conflict as a sectarian one and workers unity is what has to be used to overcome it. thats not a crude unity where we say israeli workers are just as aggrived as palestinian workers but it also means you cant take a crude aproach of blanket labeling all israeli workers as evil and all palestinian workers as good. so yeah, we do actually have to appeal to israeli workers to fightback against their horrible government. like most of us live in the US which is actually more responsible id argue for the apartheid system in israel than the actual israeli government due to the fact that its our support which keeps israel afloat, but no one here i would hope would argue we should ignore all american workers because theyre propping up a repressive regime.

so anyway, bds the group actually calls for that stuff, they work to get trade unions involved and academic boycotts etc. but if youve ever been to a pro-palestine event theres very little calls for which unions to target and what demands to put to them. thats the disconnect i mean when i say bds is an org, a slogan, a tactic, it just means whatever the person saying it wants it to mean in that moment, and often the three are totally disconnected from each other. generally the people advocating for it arent recruiting rank and file workers to introduce motions at their union meetings in solidarity with palestine or to work to get their institutions/corporations to divest from israeli or apartheid supporting companies. even if they did, its also arguable how much blanket divestments/boycotts would be effective against the israeli regime. the threat of external attack is pretty much exactly what has helped keep the right in power in israel for so long, it would be hard to argue against that i think. so actions which feed into that can also help draw israeli workers further towards the right. its also true that palestinians make up ~40% of israeli populace and so are also workers in the israeli economy, they all work side by side at the same companies etc. so have to be very precise and ensure targets dont help feed into that narrative that the right puts forward. you can see this exact process play out right now in ukraine with how everyone is rallying around zelensky who has spent his presidency crushing labor unions and left parties there, but since ukraine is being invaded a lot of the opposition and regular people are rallying around him and the state to defend it. in fact, if russia is beaten back and ukraine "wins" on whatever basis you want to call it a win, id guess we will see a huge crackdown against the left and the ukranian state will actually come to resemble the russian state even more ironically, just with opposing foreign policy interests. again, the dock workers in france and i think italy are a really good example of what boycotts/sanctions could look like in a really positive way and even moreso if those actions can be tied to israeli and palestinian unions and workers, then it creates a pole of attraction for workers in israel/palestine to also engage in and support bds actions. people often point to the bds movement in s. africa but forget that it wasnt bds internationally that beat apartheid it was the actions of workers in s. africa. its also true that s. africa was ~90% black and ~10% white and class lines shook out much along those ethnic/color lines, in israel/palestine palestinians are a minority of the population and the class lines are not so neatly cut along ethnic lines, most israelis are still working class, so yeah for any kind of change to happen it will require support and cooperation of at least some progressive israeli working class forces, i dont see anyway that it doesnt.

another thing and this is getting away from the question of bds but also on the issue of palestine that i hear debated a lot on "the left" where any nuance is seen as support for israel is the two state/one state issue. two states is what palestinians in palestine support. many on the left like to say there should be one state: palestine, basically saying israel shouldnt exist. ok but like what does that mean? does it mean a new consitution? well id hope so, but is that achieved by changing the name? who controls what a new constitution looks like? does it mean palestinians gaining total hegemony over the political process in the region? well, again in israel+occupied territories palestinians make up ~40% of population so youre talking about a minoritarian rule along ethnic lines, sounds pretty bad to me imo, its basically israel now but flip mode. if youre not talking about that then youre talking about basically integrating the territories together which would then create a state dominated by israelies, just like what exists now but with all of the territory of palestine "legally" occupied, sounds bad. if you mean all the israelis should be removed from the region as theyre all settler colonialists then actually, yeah you are arguing for ethnic cleansing against israelis and thats exactly the argument zionists like to paint the left as having because a lot of ultra left types actually do believe and argue that. they are fringe wackos but theyre what the reactionaries point to as being the left. so basically a two state solution would at least give palestinians national self-determination and its actually what palestinians in palestine want on the whole. i dont see how a one state solution on any grounds that a socialist could support could be achieved in the current situation. thats not to say it couldnt be the case under different circumstances which might arise later, thats true for any and all of this, but just reacting to the political situation as it exists right now.

now as socialists we obviously dont stop at national self determination alone though because such a nation still has class conflict and there is a palestinian ruling class just like there is everywhere else, their status as an oppressed nation doesnt change that, though it might change some of the scale/balance if that makes sense. so we still have to argue for a socialist palestine, a socialist israel, not just stop at independence in whatever form that takes.

thats a long rambling post, also full of holes and not very imprecise cause not trying to write a novel but hope it illustrates the complexities and how the reductive approach so many people use is so worthless. im sure i can be corrected on some things and not saying i have all the answers myself, im always open to ideas, but thats just some of the things ive come to understand about the issue. I definitely feel very strongly that its impossible to be "pro-palestine" and a politician in the democratic party because democrats will always support and defend israeli apartheid. its one of many reasons that i think an independent workers/socialist party in the us has to be the priority in the electoral arena for socialists, because of international issues like this.

...the Aristocrats!

# ¿ Apr 24, 2022 08:59

Hefty Leftist: Jun 26, 2011; "You know how vodka or whiskey are distilled multiple times to taste good? It's the same with shit. After being digested for the third time shit starts to taste reeeeeeaaaally yummy."

how useful is The Origin of the Family in 2022? has it become outdated (as i've been repeatedly told) or has it aged fairly well? i'm not well versed enough in anthropology to understand advancements in it, or if those advancements are just liberalism

# ¿ May 24, 2022 01:00

Hefty Leftist: Jun 26, 2011; "You know how vodka or whiskey are distilled multiple times to taste good? It's the same with shit. After being digested for the third time shit starts to taste reeeeeeaaaally yummy."

MSDOS KAPITAL posted:

I think the thing that confuses people - including myself - about China the most, is not being able to understand how Dengism ever worked. Like I get the principle of it, but I don't understand how China managed to do it without the state falling under the control of the capitalist class. Especially when you consider that capitalist actors chief among them the US were working hard to make sure that happened and yet it somehow... just didn't. It's especially especially perplexing since the USSR did in some ways a very similar thing right around the same time and immediately self-owned in spectacular fashion. So I think there is a tendency to suppose that China probably is capitalist (in the sense that the CPC is captured by the capitalist class) and they're just really good at hiding it.

I'd be interested to hear opinions on if China was capitalist at some point in the recent past. I don't actually know. Would it be accurate to say that the principal aspect of the economy in maybe the 80s and 90s, was capitalist? It seems like it would have had to be at some point, but perhaps not - I don't know.

economic control was ceded to bourgeois elements in society but not political control. the bourgeoisie weren't allowed to organise as a political class: they were correctly suppressed by the socialist state. deng and the CCP combined that with understanding capital's need for surplus value and exploited it through investment to develop the productive forces while still retaining control. it worked and both western bourgeois governments and western ''marxists' (trots) don't understand because they're incredibly sinophobic and anti-communist

quote:

Deng: Bourgeois Liberalization Means Taking the Capitalist Road

"At the Third Plenary Session of the Eleventh Central Committee the Party decided on the policy of opening to the outside world and at the same time demanded a curb on bourgeois liberalization. These two things are related. Unless we curb bourgeois liberalization, we cannot put our open policy into effect. Our modernization drive and the open policy must exclude bourgeois liberalization. For the past few years there has been liberal thinking not only in the society at large but also inside the Party. If this trend were allowed to spread, it would undermine our cause. In short, our goal is to create a stable political environment; in an environment of political unrest, it would be impossible for us to proceed with socialist construction or to accomplish anything. Our major task is to build up the country, and less important things should be subordinated to it. Even if there is a good reason for having them, the major task must take precedence."

from what i understand (please correct me), in contrast Gorbachev ceded working class political control in his reforms and the bourgeoisie immediately organised as a political class and overthrew the weak socialist state. however i'm fairly certain the USSR had underlying factors that deeply contributed to its ultimate fall well before the 1980s, revisionism being a large party trend going back to khrushchev.

both examples go beyond looking at individual leaders - bigger social and class factors would have gone into both decisions and why ultimately one socialist state failed and the other survived. someone who's studied more can add to this

Hefty Leftist has issued a correction as of 02:01 on Jul 9, 2022

# ¿ Jul 9, 2022 01:51

Hefty Leftist: Jun 26, 2011; "You know how vodka or whiskey are distilled multiple times to taste good? It's the same with shit. After being digested for the third time shit starts to taste reeeeeeaaaally yummy."

https://twitter.com/Bodhishevik/status/1390410644646662150

# ¿ Jul 9, 2022 02:06

Hefty Leftist: Jun 26, 2011; "You know how vodka or whiskey are distilled multiple times to taste good? It's the same with shit. After being digested for the third time shit starts to taste reeeeeeaaaally yummy."

i'm starting a read through Losurdo's Critique of a Black Legend and while it seems to be a good general overview, some of the arguments are a little weak and leave a lot to be desired. for instance, a lot of the arguments rely on singular anecdotes and all seem to cite secondary authors over primary sources. i'm hoping for a more comprehensive historical study on Stalin from the same viewpoint and goal Losurdo has.

are there any pro-Soviet history works worth reading? this might be a wild goose chase because i understand soviet history is dominated by western anti-communism so maybe it doesn't actually exist, but i'd love to read a comprehensive history that cuts through anti-communist points on Stalin and the USSR

Hefty Leftist has issued a correction as of 15:32 on Dec 14, 2022

# ¿ Dec 14, 2022 15:30

Hefty Leftist: Jun 26, 2011; "You know how vodka or whiskey are distilled multiple times to taste good? It's the same with shit. After being digested for the third time shit starts to taste reeeeeeaaaally yummy."

do you think Cuba signing onto the BRI that was signed in 2021 will have any impact on material needs? i wonder if China could step into the role the USSR used to fill for Cuba (if they're not already doing that)

# ¿ Feb 21, 2023 00:44

Hefty Leftist: Jun 26, 2011; "You know how vodka or whiskey are distilled multiple times to taste good? It's the same with shit. After being digested for the third time shit starts to taste reeeeeeaaaally yummy."

HiroProtagonist posted:

Financialized capital. What imperialism is based on.

is there a good simple explanation of financialized capital for dummies like me?

# ¿ Dec 5, 2023 10:30

Hefty Leftist: Jun 26, 2011; "You know how vodka or whiskey are distilled multiple times to taste good? It's the same with shit. After being digested for the third time shit starts to taste reeeeeeaaaally yummy."

fart simpson posted:

heres how i understand it:

"capital" is money that makes u more money right? how does it work? basically by applying human labor you can add value to your inputs and sell the output for more money than you put in

and then you start to abstract away from this so you get to a system where you can just invest money and receive a money return (interest) and you don�t need to worry about managing all that labor and production crap. good deal. and then you start to take interest as a given in all your calculations and don�t consider that eventually someone has to be making something at the bottom of the pyramid.

and over time the money return you can get from actually investing in the making of things starts to drop, while the interest rate you take as a given doesn�t drop as fast due to math tricks and government policies and rent extraction. at a certain point, you cross over a line where investing in the actual making of things earns you �less� than investing in the math tricks and at that point: industrial economy goes to neoliberalism, gets pumped with massive shot of many financial instruments, doesn�t feel good and changes � FINANCIAL CAPITALISM. If you can earn a higher return by investing in math and extracting rent and you don�t have to worry about actually making stuff, then you can also strip the copper out of the walls (you don�t need it anymore, your not making stuff) and sell the copper and earn even more money this financial quarter

what could possibly go wrong? :ironicat:

# ¿ Dec 5, 2023 11:47

Hefty Leftist: Jun 26, 2011; "You know how vodka or whiskey are distilled multiple times to taste good? It's the same with shit. After being digested for the third time shit starts to taste reeeeeeaaaally yummy."

capital is perfectly readable if you stop being a gigantic baby about it

# ¿ Apr 1, 2024 23:07

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# ¿ May 21, 2024 04:35

Hefty Leftist: Jun 26, 2011; "You know how vodka or whiskey are distilled multiple times to taste good? It's the same with shit. After being digested for the third time shit starts to taste reeeeeeaaaally yummy."

dead gay comedy forums posted:

The bureaucratic quagmire was also a consequence of the immediate realities of the Revolution, the Intervention and Civil War (and the general revolutionary conflicts). The Bolsheviks were handling existential risks that didn't afford the possibility for a thorough demolition and reconstruction of the tsarist state: much of the greater Soviet government was a takeover of that existing structure and prosecuting officials and nobles that were reactionary or historically adversarial to the popular interest, while offering the possibility to the immediately less problematic people to nominally join the party or just doing civil service.

In places where the soviets managed to hold out and establish local government, they were the spearhead of the land conflicts by going out and fighting aristocrats and kulaks well over the Civil War, for example. So far from what I have read and came across, there's very little notion in our general view from the present of the difficulties of direct executive capacity the revolutionary government actually had: the impression given in most of the reading is that once Lenin sits in the chair, it is like a strategy game event and the buttons are available to do whatever he wanted. The reality of the circumstances was that the Soviet government had to battle from its major centers of Petrograd and Moscow into the countryside to link up with places that formed soviets while building new and properly soviet structures into the bureaucracy. SOVNARKOM was a monumental success in that regard, given the adversities faced, as it created a central executive authority that was able to do incredible feats of public administration, military organization and coordination, revolutionary construction and of the new political reality from the moment it popped up, but that was sustained by War Communism and that had a clear political threshold of tolerance. The new political structures would require a comprehensive build-up of the CPSU, to form a new roster for the political administration and move out the remainder of the tsarist state - it seems to me that Lenin was very likely to succeed in that task, but he got shot and then had the strokes...

so you're telling me socialism doesn't arrive in perfect form and instead takes shape from the conditions of the society it arises out of?????????????

# ¿ Apr 10, 2024 11:25

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > C-SPAM > [Marx] I put on my anti-coat and wizard hat