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(Thread IKs: dead gay comedy forums)
 
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genericnick
Dec 26, 2012

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genericnick
Dec 26, 2012

a few DRUNK BONERS posted:

You can prove a computer did work wasted electricity, that in no way applies to the work humans do

genericnick
Dec 26, 2012

indigi posted:

divorced from context, someone posting "I am finished with Destiny Vaush and Breadtube" would usually be a good thing

Had me nodding along there for a second. Lol.

genericnick
Dec 26, 2012

Yossarian-22 posted:

I'm reading October by China Mieville who is probably a fan of Trotsky. Apparently the workers fought to abolish tipping during the February Revolution. lol that Trotsky thought he could inspire the same in the U.S. by being an rear end in a top hat

I don't know a lot about Trotsky, but being an rear end in a top hat as a revolutionary act sounds like a lot of Trotzkyites you tend to run across.

genericnick
Dec 26, 2012

dead gay comedy forums posted:

to add on further, this has a lot to do with the marginalists coming up with elasticity, the cornerstone of neoclassical theory. Turns out that this was an amazing tool to actually plan for demand and was readily employed in other schools of economic thought more interested in changing things rather than observing

this is where the Austrian school falls into a very "problematic" place, but one that is very, very useful for some: if planning and organization beat the market even using neoclassical premises and frameworks, then the Austrian school has to discredit neoclassical thinking to serve its purpose. This is where a lot of Hayek's charge against aggregation comes from, and especially why he directs himself against Keynes rather than their contemporary Kalecki: the latter was a Marxist economist who was way more competent (and waaaaay ahead on maths) than the former and, being a Marxist, was interested on getting to the solving point of the matter instead of going around in circles (like Keynes). Kalecki solved and proved (formally, when able) for many of the socialist economic propositions to the detriment of the austrians and neoclassical thinkers, and pretty much owned Hayek whenever possible

(Hell, wanna know a well-kept open secret of the field? mofo came up with the profit equation in macroeconomics, which he bases from karl loving marx himself)

I really need to read more Kalecki. I've only read his Political Aspects of Full Employment and that was pretty concise and topical.

genericnick
Dec 26, 2012


lol

genericnick
Dec 26, 2012

John Charity Spring posted:

.

also every trot org in the UK has had some kind of sexual assault scandal but so have the anarchist orgs and the other communist orgs in the UK too. I don't think it's specific to the trotskyists

Comes from being riddled with cops probably.

genericnick
Dec 26, 2012

splifyphus posted:

it's not that 'it's communist as long as the government is communist' it's that a burgeoning superpower run by a party whose mass base and ultimate telos is communist and who has a structurally integral role in the world system is far, far better than many if not all possible alternatives.


That's true for as far as it goes, but surely you could have made the same argument for the USSR? And yet in the end a faction that controlled some layers of the executive basically told the party to gently caress off and die and that was it. And you could argue that you already have the kernel of an oligarchic system in China while that only grew in the USSR after its fall.

genericnick
Dec 26, 2012

Pener Kropoopkin posted:

The most bitter thing about it is how close the Bolsheviks were to winning the Polish-Soviet war.

Would that have really changed something in isolation?
Edit: Not sure if interwar domino theory really holds water.

genericnick
Dec 26, 2012

Feels like we've been hosed since the SPD voted for those war credits.

genericnick
Dec 26, 2012


Wild that she'd just dox me like that.

genericnick
Dec 26, 2012

https://twitter.com/asatarbair/status/1409523449861603329

genericnick
Dec 26, 2012

https://twitter.com/asatarbair/status/1409313735554916353
I'm just going to continue posting the Stalin guy.

genericnick
Dec 26, 2012

https://twitter.com/asatarbair/status/1407933384857247746
Just get him an account.

genericnick
Dec 26, 2012

John Charity Spring posted:

lol this is exactly what I expected would happen. I bailed on his podcast when he was uncritically repeating de Tocqueville's analysis of the French Revolution (that if there hadn't been a revolution the changes would have happened anyway without violence). the episode where he reverently read out the US Bill of Rights in its entirety didn't bode well either

I liked how he laid out that the French king was encouraging war with Austria in the hope that France would lose and also how he wasn't a bad man when they lobbed his head off.

genericnick
Dec 26, 2012

Comrade Koba posted:

his podcasts are good but you absolutely have to pay 100% attention to everything he says or you’ll miss some tiny detail that’ll make everything that comes next extremely confusing.

for revolutions i’ve only listened to the english civil war one so far and holy poo poo was it a pain to keep track of all the increasingly silly parliamentary factions continually drafting stupid documents with names like “the most admirable bill of noble and justly gain’d attainment” or “the revered declaration of sacred arrears in blissful perpetuity”.

I think the correct way to pay attention to the English Civil War is "don't".

genericnick
Dec 26, 2012

Raskolnikov38 posted:

please for the love of my sanity stop listening to history podcasts by lay morons and pick something from this list that says it’s made by actual academics

https://networks.h-net.org/node/84048/pages/102491/academic-podcast-roundup

e: oh ffs Duncan doesn’t even have a goddamn BA in history aaaaaaaaaa

I was looking for something about Byzantium. Thanks.
Edit: lol though:

""Academic Podcast Roundup | H-Podcast | H-Net" posted:

The History of Rome - A now completed 179-episode series tracing the history of Rome from start to finish, hosted by podcaster Mike Duncan.

genericnick
Dec 26, 2012

Lol the Byzantine guy sounds extremely lib. "We identify with the common man" (about Americans). "I believe history is the story of individuals" goes on to quote a US president.

genericnick
Dec 26, 2012

First two minutes of the actual podcast and he brings up the great "peaceful transition" in America. Can't do it, sorry.

genericnick
Dec 26, 2012

Demon Semen posted:

Is Thomas Piketty worth checking out? Specifically his books Capital in the 21st Century and Capital And Ideology?

I never read it, but the historic data collection part is supposed to be pretty good if that's your thing. Don't think he has any great explanatory models, really.

genericnick
Dec 26, 2012

Was listening to this:
https://twitter.com/MarkAmesExiled/status/1411472957185069059

and they were roasting a guy who had a Bakunin poster, and they mention that Bakunin was a raging anti-Semitite, which I knew, but also that he had warm words for the US Confederates. Lol.

genericnick
Dec 26, 2012

Mr. Lobe posted:

after scanning various news sources, my best read is that the main driver of the protests is probably shortages and power blackouts. there's also some grievances being aired against how the cuban government generally handles dissent. but these grievances and these protests are being cynically exploited and amplified by foreign state powers interested in regime change. seems pretty rough for the people.

what's an unsatisfied cuban to do? if they suck it up, their grievances may not be taken seriously. they protest, then the US through its proxies and tendrils will be there to fan the flames with the intent of toppling their government and making serfs of them all. I don't envy their position

Though the protests also don't seem that big? Even the NED human rights industry only talks of a hundred people being arrested.

genericnick
Dec 26, 2012

https://twitter.com/BrankoMilan/status/1423504537424384000

genericnick
Dec 26, 2012

"Jack" Ryan Xi, secret Clancy fan.

genericnick
Dec 26, 2012

https://twitter.com/existentialcoms/status/1416215790173396997

genericnick
Dec 26, 2012

https://twitter.com/asatarbair/status/1428886414456807426

genericnick
Dec 26, 2012

Enjoy posted:

the entire system was corrupt which is why it stagnated and collapsed. soviet citizens in the 1980s were unwilling to stick their heads over the parapets and save socialism because they were the descendents of the ones who survived the purges by keeping their heads down

Lol. Is all I can say to this.

genericnick
Dec 26, 2012

Not sure this is really the right thread for it, but is there any primer for the Sino-Soviet split? Seems to have screwed over everyone involved quite massively.

genericnick
Dec 26, 2012

I've just finished the State and Revolution and I can not avoid two conclusions: Lenin was a pedantic rear end in a top hat and certainly great fun at parties. Also, he's more right than wrong, even though the strict application of his definition of the state seems to vary a bit for the purpose of owning his enemies.

genericnick
Dec 26, 2012

V. Illych L. posted:

we should all aspire to be lenin but he was not a graceful loser. he also deliberately refused to allow himself to be moved by art so he could be a more perfect communist and that is not a normal thing to do

Calling him stubborn is a close miss I think. But he will win those arguments, no matter if he has to scour all of Marx and Engel's works to find a quote to support him or make up a whole new minority faction he calls "the majority".

genericnick
Dec 26, 2012

Though more seriously, after reading the book I appreciate Lenin's definition of the state as the "special method of oppression" that must arise, and his practical program of having the armed proletariat smashing this instrument and replace it with their own. We have after all seen the failure of the second option over and over. What I'm not 100% convinced of is that his model of the state is actually Marx and Engels model, as he claims.
I also wonder that in Chapter V the "..according to his needs" part only appears in a further step of true communism. Wouldn't a system set up to plan further capital development also have a good shot at figuring out those needs? Seems kind of arbitrary to start with equal reward for equal labor. Also kind of interesting that a lot of bourgeoisie laws are suddenly kept around in that chapter.

Also a minor point: I remember Western commentators noting that the Red Army lacked Non Commissioned Officers and that is, according to them, supposed to have caused a lot of problems. Can that structure be traced to Lenin's insistence here that the standing arm has to go?

genericnick
Dec 26, 2012

Raine posted:

what is this thread's take on firearms

Every worker a nuke.

genericnick
Dec 26, 2012

gradenko_2000 posted:

Cross-posting this here because I keep bouncing around topics in the Eurasia thread.

Continuing with my reading, it seems like one can draw a direct line because Khrushchev's denunciations of the "cult of personality" and anti-Stalinism, and the Cultural Revolution. As far as I can tell, Mao saw what Khrushchev did to the USSR's politics, and became so concerned with the possibility of a "Chinese Khrushchev" lurking within the party's senior leadership that he came up with the idea of the Cultural Revolution in order to motivate the people to rise up and purge the capitalist roaders.

I've been listening to:
https://soundcloud.com/thesocialistprogram/chinas-foreign-policy-complete-series-bonus-content-1949-today
which is a six hour plus podcast about Chinese foreign policy. I got it from somewhere in CSPAM, so it might have been posted here already.

What I get as China's key grievances:
The USSR was genuinely concerned with not blowing up the world, but didn't bring China along to the negotiations with the US. With Korea, Tibet, and Taiwan, things were still pretty hot and close to home for the Chinese and they felt like they were getting sold out.
In fact, when they signed the NPT, China was still a few years out from testing it's own bombs.
China was pretty mad about Indonesia, while the USSR basically shrugged and went back to negotiate spheres of interest.
At some point before the points above Khrushchev recalled Soviet advisors.
The USSR didn't have their backs in the war with India.

genericnick
Dec 26, 2012

crepeface posted:

ha, I posted the same thing in response to gradenko when he posted that in the Eurasia thread:

Hah, pretty sure I got it from that post. Just had the tab open with a vague memory that it's from CSPAM somewhere.

genericnick
Dec 26, 2012

gradenko_2000 posted:

thanks for all the input, folks! I knew that if I posted enough about the Sino-Soviet split we could lure out others to weigh in on it

call it my Hundred Flowers Posting

Yeah, great success.


vyelkin posted:


Based on the great advances of the First Five-Year Plan, Mao pushed for China to speed up industrialization even further, but the Soviets pushed back and again urged China not to get hasty and make any rash mistakes. That again rubbed Mao the wrong way and started to think that the Soviets were threatened by China's rise to predominance in the communist world, and were trying to hold China back so it would remain a junior partner rather than a real equal. So the Second Five-Year Plan (the Great Leap Forward) had wildly inflated goals, inspired by Mao's intentional deviation from the centralized bureaucratic Soviet development model which he now saw as holding China back, as well as by his desire for China to develop enough that it no longer needed Soviet aid. It didn't work, and its catastrophic failures angered Khrushchev even more since, to him, the Soviets had repeatedly warned the Chinese that some kind of disaster would happen if they moved too quickly, and they had been completely ignored. To Khrushchev this was just the Chinese stubbornly refusing to learn from Soviet leadership and experience, while to Mao that same thing was seen as the Soviets wanting to restrict the potential of an alternative model of socialist development and a potential rival for leadership of the communist world. To be reductive, the Soviets saw China as a junior partner that should follow their lead, and the Chinese saw the Soviets as imperialists trying to dictate the path of Chinese development.

There were other events around this time that fed those sentiments, as well. China wanted the atomic bomb and the Soviets thought there was no need for them to have it since they were protected by the Soviet nuclear arsenal, another sign of junior partner status. The Soviets supported India (a Soviet ally) over China in the 1959 border war, another sign that the Soviets valued relations with non-communist countries more than relations with communist ones, and so on. Khrushchev withdrew Soviet advisers and a lot of Soviet aid in 1960, which exacerbated the failures of the Great Leap (joint projects went unfunded, Soviet machines that broke went unfixed, and so on), though iirc Khrushchev kept sending food aid to alleviate the famine. It took a few more years after that for the Sino-Soviet Split to really be official, but that was the biggest turning point.


Thanks for that. The Great Leap Forward didn't make an appearance in the overview podcast and that's really important context. That makes the withdrawal of advisors a bit less abrupt.

genericnick
Dec 26, 2012

Red and Black posted:

There's also this study from two years ago which seems to show a large uptick of support for the market economy in formerly communist states since 2010

https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2019/10/15/european-public-opinion-three-decades-after-the-fall-of-communism/



e: also this 2009 poll

https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2009/11/02/end-of-communism-cheered-but-now-with-more-reservations/



which seems to contradict the poll that was taken just a year later. Unless you can simultaneously feel things were better economically during communism than under capitalism, and still prefer capitalism

I guess you you could add the ability to travel to the West and the collapse of the intrusive policing system under the headline of "change to capitalism"

genericnick
Dec 26, 2012

BrutalistMcDonalds posted:

seemed fun. good times for all but it had a certain "design-by-committee" vibe

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UvEzFW_pH1g

I notice that all the GRD songs I've ever heard have a part about the USSR. Actually, I looked it up and that song predates the GDR, but still:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HYJmGaBMQJ8

genericnick
Dec 26, 2012

Red and Black posted:

drat, different branches of same government coordinating with each other? I can't think of a single time when that happened

Same, but unironical

genericnick
Dec 26, 2012

Fish of hemp posted:

How would you have kept the Baltic states in the Union without bloodshed? And how much blood would the public be willing to shed over them?

And soviet economy was in shambles. When the most richest country in natural resources in the world can't feed it's population or provide adequate consumer goods, something is wrong.

Wait, there was no lack of food in the 80ies, was there?

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genericnick
Dec 26, 2012

genericnick posted:

Wait, there was no lack of food in the 80ies, was there?

quote:

Soviet food imports: The growing necessity for change - ScienceDirect]This article provides an analysis of the structure and role of food imports in the USSR. The economic burden of external purchases of food is excessively heavy, but at the same time tension in the internal food market is so great, and the dependence on external purchases so strong, that ‘simple’ solutions to the problem are impossible. A radical change in the structure of imports is necessary to eliminate disproportions in the food sector and to improve nutritional standards. It is also necessary to make use of every kind of external economic relations developed by the world community. But all the measures taken must form part of a coherent foreign food policy.

lol.

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