[Marx] I put on my anti-coat and wizard hat

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > C-SPAM > [Marx] I put on my anti-coat and wizard hat

(Thread IKs: dead gay comedy forums)

Skaffen-Amtiskaw: Jun 24, 2023

Somehow missed this thread, but having stumbled across Paul Cockshott's channel on YT putting me in the mood, am going to diligently churn through it as best I can.

As someone mentioned MMT on this page, a question. How would you address family members who subscribe to the "taxes are what fund gov't budgets" way of thinking? I have a feeling, given most people on the planet are going to be seeing an election this year, that I'm going to have to field more questions about how our crumbling infrastructure is due to lack of money, and that's all because of the massive salaries of council staff and other civil servants and gold plated benefit scroungers. Also, productivity needs to keep going up magically via AI or whatecer and blah blah blah.

I'm curious what the simplest way to rebuke Daily Mail talking points is when the "there's no money left!" trump card gets played.

# ¿ Mar 10, 2024 01:13

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ¿ May 11, 2024 12:58

Skaffen-Amtiskaw: Jun 24, 2023

Aeolius posted:

The capsule summary is... SNIP

That's the ticket, cheers. I actually forgot the BoE thing, despite having used that in the past. Wasn't aware of the FED one, so that will go in my armoury now.

On the subject of MMT and Marxists, I stumbled across this again the other day and it seems to be a fairly common thing for MMTers to have foibles relating to those on the left, at least in my experience. I'm guessing because of the same thought terminating assumptions about the system we're already in.

# ¿ Mar 10, 2024 03:37

Skaffen-Amtiskaw: Jun 24, 2023

Orange Devil posted:

This is a literal Marx quote from Capital vol 1, chapter 10:

�Capital is dead labour, that, vampire-like, only lives by sucking living labour, and lives the more, the more labour it sucks�

Somewhat reminds me of the Steve Keen quote �Labour without energy is a corpse; capital without energy is a sculpture.�

# ¿ Mar 10, 2024 14:05

Skaffen-Amtiskaw: Jun 24, 2023

Orange Devil posted:

In case you haven't realized: we literally live in such a world.

The Chinese government very deliberately works to keep labour-power cheap by ensuring the basic necessities are cheap. So food, utilities, transport, etc. Shelter has been an exception but bringing down housing prices is actively being worked on right now. Meanwhile Chinese production is now developed to such an extent that there's no gap between socially necessary labour for advanced commodities in China and in the rest of the world. In many cases if there is a difference it's even in favour of China.

Meanwhile in the West the most profitable thing to do is to extract rents out of basic life necessities from the populace at large, aka the working class. That's why insane rents and housing prices, that's why double digit inflation on food and (in Europe at least) triple digit percentage price increases on energy. The Chinese population, according to Western "experts" has "excess savings" which they present as a problem. Meanwhile the US population is loaded up to the eyeballs in credit card debt. You're right that something extractive is going on, but it's not China doing the extracting.

And in case you're worried that China might misuse it's advantageous position vis-a-vis other countries in the future, just look at what they are actually doing: they are investing into building infrastructure and productive capacities in pretty much any country willing to partner with them all over the world in anything at all they can find mutually beneficial. They're not interested in extracting only resources and bringing it all to China, they're literally building factories, ports, high speed rail and roads in other countries. Same as they have done and continue to do in China's poorest regions.

I would say that in relation to Europe and the energy costs, that is primarily down to being cut off from Russia and having to source from the US or Qatar the NG needed to keep the lights on. This is simply neoliberal lack of foresight, seeing the idea of having to build their own energy independence in the way, say, France did (lol at Niger and uranium and EdF incompetence), as not being that important because of the backwards "gas station" that is the Russian state.

State owned power companies would make it easier on the people, naturally. However, the EU and UK are basically finding out what happens when you have an energy shortfall and can only rely on the LNG of your supposed benefactors... for a price. Germany is especially up a creek with their economy being the biggest manufacturer one, not like the giant Excel spreadsheet industry of the UK.

# ¿ Mar 10, 2024 23:32

Skaffen-Amtiskaw: Jun 24, 2023

I had hopes France may have been the one sane nation in regards to energy, but nope. The rot set in there a long time ago too, and the climate impacting on their reactors along with labour issues is the, how you say, pi�ce de r�sistance.

# ¿ Mar 10, 2024 23:41

Skaffen-Amtiskaw: Jun 24, 2023

Cory Doctorow had a good piece recently on rents vs. profits that I felt was pretty good.

# ¿ Apr 21, 2024 01:12

Skaffen-Amtiskaw: Jun 24, 2023

Ferrinus posted:

i'm broadly suspicious of any claim that we are returning to feudalism because of apps or whatever, i think it's just the old antisemitic good industrial capitalists vs bad financial capitalists canard with extra steps. under capitalism, rents as well as interest are collected by various auxiliary actors because it ultimately saves time and money that a commodity-producing industrial capitalist would have to spend to do the same thing. i'm not convinced that rents are uniquely defeating profits now in a way that they weren't before, especially because they still completely depend on profits in a way they never did in the time of serfs and castles

Could this whole episode be simply an anomaly because of ZIRP and the rise in technology companies dominating the stock market since the late '90s and especially since 2008? It seems like a pretty unique situation that wasn't going to last before something broke and the old manner of doing things came back with a vengeance.

There is little juice left in the start up culture as evidenced by AI being a Hail Mary, and it's hard to run an unprofitable business when not having VC money thrown at you chasing any kind of growth as investment opportunity.

Also, I usually expect something in return for a feudal society unlike one of capital bleeding everyone dry and moving on.

# ¿ Apr 23, 2024 22:29

Skaffen-Amtiskaw: Jun 24, 2023

I am beholden to the burger god.

# ¿ Apr 24, 2024 13:28

Skaffen-Amtiskaw: Jun 24, 2023

I have thoughts.

Guy On Other Forum posted:

Saying that growth can�t be infinite is boring, everyone knows that. The question is how much growth is possible.

Economic output is not measured in joules or grams. The value of a product is not just the sum of the inputs. That is the Marxist theory of value, and seems very popular around here, but it is nonsense. You can build an airplane out of reinforced concrete at great expense, but it won�t fly and has no value.

We are nowhere near the limits to efficiency. An SUV weighs maybe 2 tons and costs $50K, or $25/kilo. An iphone 15 Professional weighs 250 grams and costs $1200, about $4800/kilo.

So, how best to explain what�s missing here?

# ¿ Apr 27, 2024 17:01

Skaffen-Amtiskaw: Jun 24, 2023

This was my reply when I was in the train then lost signal and started thinking more about it.

quote:

You�re basically arguing the Marxist point for me. Yeah, the reason those things are so expensive despite what they do being easily done by cheaper equivalents is because of labour and rent extraction. Why sell a Fiesta when Ford can make more profit per unit selling a Lightning?

Hence why China is able to massively undercut America and Europe because� the inputs are cheaper and there is no massive grift or need for directing productive output away from where it is needed.

Look at Ukraine. The MIC in the west is now charging $8k per 155 mm shell where such shells are made in Russia or China for hundreds of dollars. Why?

But I do find it hard to parse his actual post for a reason.

# ¿ Apr 27, 2024 17:10

Skaffen-Amtiskaw: Jun 24, 2023

Raskolnikov38 posted:

HOW IS USD PER UNIT MASS A MEASURE OF EFFICINCY?!?!?!?!

I don�t know. I can only relate it to some kinda grasp at how equivalent units of mass of metal used for one form produce a more expensive thing in another form. I think.

Like, a steel watch is worth more than a steel knife typically. And?

Also, we can�t make a more efficient electric motor or lithium battery by the orders of magnitude he seems to assume can be done. It�s marginal percentage improvements at absolute best. Efficiency is not a magic unlimited get out of jail free card from entropy.

# ¿ Apr 27, 2024 17:13

Skaffen-Amtiskaw: Jun 24, 2023

Thanks for the input on my query. It�s handy to have this place to call upon for such instances.

I�m also thinking of that oil based comic relating the energy slaves concept to material wealth we all enjoy in the fossil fuel party we call industrial civilisation. Steve Keen I think often uses a barrel of crude as a way of gauging the true price for our profligate energy use in seeing it as how much it would cost at minimum wage.

# ¿ Apr 27, 2024 22:10

Skaffen-Amtiskaw: Jun 24, 2023

Has anyone ever read The Economic Superorganism by Carey W. King? I seem to recall a lot of productive value and energy being calculated in it as relating to what makes our global economy today. It�s always fascinating to see the inflection from where some bottleneck translates to capital deciding to skim off the top more as profitability sinks due to input increases.

# ¿ Apr 27, 2024 22:27

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ¿ May 11, 2024 12:58

Skaffen-Amtiskaw: Jun 24, 2023

dead gay comedy forums posted:

yuuuup

like, a gram of iphone is more than a gram of suv because�

Raw ingredients that make a human versus said materials arranged as a human.

# ¿ Apr 27, 2024 22:44

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > C-SPAM > [Marx] I put on my anti-coat and wizard hat