(Thread IKs:
dead gay comedy forums)
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In practical terms, the average worker likely doesn't know how to manage the entire enterprise. The extant capitalists (ignoring the fact that contemporary ones mostly appear to be clueless fucks) more likely do. That's a degree of knowledge that can be useful, and thus should be utilized when actually managing any given enterprise. Lenin and Mao have written as much - as long as they can be subordinated to the dictatorship of the proletariat, their knowledge can be useful, especially at the start of the revolution. After a few generations you can pluck from experienced proles to then further maintain productive forces and develop new ones, knowing that they're well versed in how things work (the forces of production) and towards what end (socialism). And if they get a whiff of that classic bourgeoisie stink, you can corral and punish them. Like what China recently did to that former party chief who was handed a suspended death sentence for accepting millions of dollars in bribes.
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Aug 2, 2023 04:27
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| # ¿ May 10, 2024 13:36 |
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Sincere question, I'm a kindergarten marxist: Regarding the bourgeoisie, isn't there a difference between keeping individuals around versus keeping the entire class as is around? In other words, isn't it self-evident that their abolition as a class the entire goal (one of many)? In which case keeping them around post-revo means going to people that were bourg and telling them essentially "you're with us or you're against us"? Straight up keeping the class around seems antithetical to the entirety of Marxism. You just have liberalism with a strong welfare state and higher taxes at best at that point, no? e: my initial post was based on a misreading of bald stalin's questions fwiw. My bad.
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Aug 2, 2023 04:44
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exmarx posted:isn't this conflating 'capitalist' with 'managerial labour' I fundamentally misread Bald Stalin's post tbh, which is what I was answering. It was late I was tired, I read it as a question pertaining to a post-revolution society, not a broader ask regarding a core concept of Capital (the book). But yeah I think I pretty much was. I was trying to say that "the bourgeoisie class post revo will either get expelled or be brought in as managerial labor" and even then Im probably thinking petty-bourg. I'm not well versed yet in terminology. Working on it.
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Aug 2, 2023 17:10
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Sunny Side Up posted:yeah that's the nature of this whole discussion---it's walking a highwire tightrope. my controversial opinion has been that without having "completed" the cultural revolution, it's a tightrope with no net Been spending my summer getting back to basics, and reading a lot. Real quick: got a degree in cultural studies, all my profs were structuralist AF, spent the next decade being a dopey half-assed anarchist increasingly disenchanted with the entire ethos in the US. Anyway... Recently, I found this from Marx, in the preface of his "Critique to the Critique of Political Economy" Marx posted:In the social production of their existence, men inevitably enter into definite relations, which are independent of their will, namely relations of production appropriate to a given stage in the development of their material forces of production. The totality of these relations of production constitutes the economic structure of society, the real foundation, on which arises a legal and political superstructure and to which correspond definite forms of social consciousness. The mode of production of material life conditions the general process of social, political and intellectual life. It is not the consciousness of men that determines their existence, but their social existence that determines their consciousness. At a certain stage of development, the material productive forces of society come into conflict with the existing relations of production or – this merely expresses the same thing in legal terms – with the property relations within the framework of which they have operated hitherto. From forms of development of the productive forces these relations turn into their fetters. Then begins an era of social revolution. The changes in the economic foundation lead sooner or later to the transformation of the whole immense superstructure. Not necessarily to counter your argument, but I found it interesting how steadfast the materialist senses of Marx were. Figure its relevant to where your heads seemingly at. It''s a tightrope for sure but part of the whole Base/Superstructure formula is that they feed off each other. I don't think your point is exactly controversial but people generally work off concrete proof. You don't change the culture without addressing material needs. Of course this is where poo poo like fascism can come on in, and why liberalism is such a failure - you can get anyone to buy into any ideology if you feed house and clothe them. Bringing this to china: I think you can see the CPC is very steadfast in maintaining their culture (SWCC) because of both affecting material changes (leading the way in increasing standards of living and combating climate change) AND reinforcing cultural standards. You can see examples in how they handle political corruption (the recent case of Zhou Jiangyong being charged with probationary death penalty for accepting bribes), or how they handled Jack Ma. Yes, Jack Ma is allowed to exist but it's still wild that a state government did what they did to him within that context. Imagine a western government cancelling an IPO and forcing a CEO to step down and get out of the public eye. Imagine if the US did that to Jeff Bezos.
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Aug 2, 2023 19:51
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Mechafunkzilla posted:The quote from the CUNY guy is very funny tho, Rich considering how much CUNY (and by extension new york city and state) specifically hosed over professors who were trying to discuss and agitate for BDS. Or really just speaking about Palestine in anyway that isnt "they dont exist and if they do they suck" Tsitsikovas has issued a correction as of 19:15 on Aug 4, 2023 |
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Aug 3, 2023 00:22
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dead gay comedy forums posted:Through Mao's foundation there, the Black Panthers argued in their preliminary class analysis that this did apply in the United States as well even though it forms the core of capitalism, as a consequence of slavery: that idea of leftover I mentioned earlier can be understood here as well, because without a comprehensive structural effort to integrate those masses of laborers into society, they would necessarily form an underclass. Is there any sources you can list that goes into black panther thought, especially along these lines? I've read in this thread that they did some of the best and most recent US class analysis and I've always been interested. Specific books/essays or writers? Also very good post all in all. You specifically, and a few other regular contributors in this thread, have given me a lot to think about and work with. It's immensely appreciated.
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Oct 17, 2023 23:56
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HiroProtagonist posted:Kwame Ture's lecture at Howard is a no-poo poo literal every-year-watch. in one hour he delivers the basic foundations of Black liberation though revolutionary socialist thought Kwame is so god drat good. I havent seen this lecture yet, thanks for the link. I did a couple of years ago watch the one he delivered in the early 90s in a university in...florida I think. I remember it being excellent, particularly for its time and place. A perfect counter to end of history nonsense being promulgated around that same time. e. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bN8oq7lF9FA this one dead gay comedy forums posted:I don't have any specific references of books by them or about them on theory; personally I have read articles by Fred Hampton, Huey P. Newton and of course, Kwame Ture (Stokely Carmichael). AFAIK, Kwame had a real theoretician's bent and it shows on his talking, anything I came across of his was very good. Time to download any and all pdfs from marxists dot org from hampton and newton then!
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Oct 19, 2023 18:38
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HiroProtagonist posted:Kwame Ture's lecture at Howard is a no-poo poo literal every-year-watch. in one hour he delivers the basic foundations of Black liberation though revolutionary socialist thought I'm just 10 minutes into this and holy poo poo Kwame is just so god drat smart and principled. Diamat is the way. e. he just got asked about racism as it relates to his analysis up to that point, and Kwame said its more than anything else irrational. I'm also reading Black Skin White Masks and came across this passage yesterday. Franz Fanon, ch 2 posted:As we have said, there are negrophobes. Moreover, it’s not the hatred of the black man that drives them; they don’t have the guts. Hatred is not a given; it is a struggle to acquire hatred, which has to be dragged into being, clashing with acknowledged guilt complexes. Hatred cries out to exist, and he who hates must prove his hatred through action and the appropriate behavior. In a sense he has to embody hatred. This is why the Americans have replaced lynching by discrimination. Each side keeps to his own. So we are not surprised that in the cities of (French?) sub-Saharan Africa there is a European district. to add, this is some of the hands down best lit crit, social crit, psychoanalysis ive ever read. Can't wait to get to Wretched. Tsitsikovas has issued a correction as of 16:10 on Oct 20, 2023 |
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Oct 20, 2023 15:49
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The Voice of Labor posted:and since the thread cop is on indefinite time-out, you can post passages from it without fear of retaliatory probes I'm confused and dont follow sa lore but is posting passages a bad thing now? Or is this just an anti-fanon thing?
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Oct 21, 2023 06:25
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Comrade Koba posted:i prefer parenti efficiency tbh Just listened to all his Real History tapes, or at least all that I could find online (TUC Radio is the best source ive found, so far), which doesn't seem like all of them. Nevertheless, good stuff.
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Feb 17, 2024 21:25
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In light of Bills' recent pages long non-grasp of entropy, here's Kwame Ture using it as part of a great criticism of Zionism. Maybe it belongs in the PI thread more, but it was too spot on imo to not share it here. On learning how to think dialectically, Ive found Kwame to be the best teacher frankly, especially as he got okder. His lectures are a masterclass in analysis, hes really good at explicitly using diamat to discuss whatever it is thats asked of him. https://twitter.com/SpiritofLenin/status/1762497354769252749?t=J5Jat6fsiVzIxxbOCDrfZw&s=19 Tsitsikovas has issued a correction as of 16:39 on Feb 27, 2024 |
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Feb 27, 2024 16:36
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Being a huge manu ginobili fan, I adore that I get to randomly say "yknow fidel castro basically invented the euro step actually" during bball talk now. Love 2b that guy now.
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Feb 28, 2024 22:25
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Orange Devil posted:And in case you're worried that China might misuse its advantageous position vis-a-vis other countries in the future, just look at what they are actually doing: they are investing into building infrastructure and productive capacities in pretty much any country willing to partner with them all over the world in anything at all they can find mutually beneficial. They're not interested in extracting only resources and bringing it all to China, they're literally building factories, ports, high speed rail and roads in other countries. Same as they have done and continue to do in China's poorest regions. I cant remember at all where I read or heard it - either someone citing a text here, OR a youtube video of some african country's rep talking about BRI - but an analysis that's stuck with me is that China does BRI in part because it solves a problem of capital flight. If you can help boost the productive capacities of the countries you are dealing with, you then reduce the ability of your domestic capital to exploit that country's labor for their firm's/personal benefit, at the expense of the state they are defying. Whether this is something deliberate on CPC's behalf or merely a happy accident I cant remember. So the mutual benefit is not only material but also specifically political and strategic. Nation X secures its own footing with a trading parter that respects X as a sovereign nation, and China gets insurance against a capital class that aims to undermine its own domestic goals.
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Mar 11, 2024 02:45
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The Origin of the Family, Private Property and the State is such a pro read. I've always enjoyed this little bit of sarcasm in itquote:Lately it has become fashionable to deny the existence of this initial stage [promiscuous sexual relations, non-monogamous households and communities -T] in human sexual life. Humanity must be spared this “shame.” It is pointed out that all direct proof of such a stage is lacking, and particular appeal is made to the evidence from the rest of the animal world; for, even among animals, according to the numerous facts collected by Letourneau (L'évolution du mariage et de la famille, 1888), complete promiscuity in sexual intercourse marks a low stage of development. But the only conclusion I can draw from all these facts, so far as man and his primitive conditions of life are concerned, is that they prove nothing whatever. That vertebrates mate together for a considerable period is sufficiently explained by physiological causes – in the case of birds, for example, by the female’s need of help during the brooding period; examples of faithful monogamy among birds prove nothing about man, for the simple reason that men are not descended from birds. And if strict monogamy is the height of all virtue, then the palm must go to the tapeworm, which has a complete set of male and female sexual organs in each of its 50-200 proglottides, or sections, and spends its whole life copulating in all its sections with itself. Tsitsikovas has issued a correction as of 04:38 on Mar 23, 2024 |
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Mar 22, 2024 19:58
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| # ¿ May 10, 2024 13:36 |
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Bald Stalin posted:Is there a more contemporary Marxist analysis/book along the lines of Engel's work but with much more modern data? I was chatting to a feminist once and she dismissed it saying a lot of the data in Engel's book was inaccurate My first exposure to it was from Verso books. The edition I grabbed was published in 2021, and the two intro essays really helped contextualize a LOT of what was said. Pardon the appeal to authority as well, but those intros were written by two contemporary (our time) queer studies professors. They did focus way more on Engels' analysis of the family unit and monogamy, but was was fascinating was that they were quite approving of the whole work by and large, saying that Morgan (the anthropologist Engels was largely citing) was pretty legit. Again, within context. At the very least, to directly answer your question, Id recommend grabbing that edition of libgen so you can check the forward and intro essay for further sources, they name drop a lot of books and authors, could be helpful. The book itself has some great footnotes that clarify Engel's various dated references, especially in the first chapter when he breaks down the stages of human development. The editors go out of their way to say "yeah when hes talking about barbaric, today's equivalent would be this era" and so on.
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Mar 23, 2024 04:35
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