(Thread IKs:
dead gay comedy forums)
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e-dt posted:whats this threads thoughts on Michael Heinrich . i've read michael heinrich's intro to the first three volumes of capital. i thought his analysis was very sharp and he's good at drawing attention to subtleties of theory that are easy to overlook or forget that said about 5% of that text is bog standard "lenin failed to consider..." anticommunism that had been predicted and debunked by walter rodney like fifty years prior. you just gotta grin and bear it to get the good stuff about abstract labor
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May 16, 2021 21:54
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Fortaleza posted:Everything in that post is correct. What do you think is supposed to be embarrassing about it? Is this your idea of a caremad comeback or something? i actually applaud you for that post because everyone else is like "see this is what happens when mods Use Their Buttons" or otherwise vaguely imply that the real problem here is some sort of nebulous social gaffe on the mods' part, but you and you alone have owned up that you are being probated because you used a slur, and are using it more in response to being probated. no one else is brave enough to just outright demand that they should simply not punish slur use and hope slur use goes away thanks to spontaneous market forces
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May 17, 2021 06:50
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Fortaleza posted:I’ve never called anyone that word and have never been probated for it, and I’m not advocating it not be punished. You can’t read and your words are worthless. here are your words: "The word is just used as a weapon against bad mods with thin skin and piss poor reading comprehension. If they were to not touch this thread and gently caress off it would trickle to nothing. You ever see it used agains gradenko or brutalistmacdonalds or tiler kiwi? They come correct and back their poo poo up and are good posters. Just give this thread an IK and let them handle things and gently caress off already." i've got a hypothetical for you. someone in this thread calls someone else the r-word. should the mods probate them for it or not
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May 17, 2021 06:58
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Centrist Committee posted:when an ideas guy finds the marxism thread same question for you: should the mods probate people for using this particular slur, in c-spam. yes or no
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May 17, 2021 07:04
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Victory Position posted:let's detach that one level out; should people get into needless slap-fights with one another at all times? coward Fortaleza posted:No, the IK that people respect should. okay so as long as it's, let's say gradenko who's probating people for calling each other the r-word, it's fine? why?
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May 17, 2021 07:08
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is this like how the USA is willing to lose multiple 9/11s worth of people to COVID but goes insane if it loses a single 9/11 to some planes
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May 17, 2021 07:09
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Flying-PCP posted:It's only harmful to call people ablist slurs, or accuse them of assaulting children, because class exists. When there's no more class structure, it will be impossible for those words to hurt people, and perhaps for any words to hurt anyone ever again, and that's why mods should give this thread permanent immunity from everything ah, the anarchist refutation of the dictatorship of the proletariat
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May 17, 2021 07:13
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Centrist Committee posted:peak goon hmm, curious. certainly did not expect the same weird evasion that's dominated this thread for a week now
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May 17, 2021 07:14
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Fortaleza posted:Because he’s actually contributed positively and shown he can be trusted to use his buttons in an even-handed way and not shut everything down or be retaliatory with them. He’s better, basically. sorry, what does "even-handed" mean here w/r/t saying slurs? will there be times that someone calls someone else the r-world and the even-handed gradenko lets it slide, while the trigger-happy flavius punishes it?
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May 17, 2021 15:09
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Mr. Lobe posted:gradenko can be trusted not to spiral out of control with petty retribution if people don't like what he does, I suspect but you're still not going to answer the yes or no question, right?
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May 17, 2021 15:11
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Mr. Lobe posted:you know what, maybe he won't probate for every use of the r-word, I dunno. But I can promise you this, the r-word will end up being used orders of magnitudes less it's just kind of weird that this flavius guy somehow causes people to use slurs. if they're unhappy with moderation and wanted to act out in protest they could also post goatse or keep calling him a pedophile or something. yet there seems to be something special about the r-word, such that when flavius just probates for use of the r-word you instantly get three pages that look like this one this just seems like the bargaining stage of grief to me. okay, fine, we won't say it, but you have to reward us for it!
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May 17, 2021 15:28
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Mr. Lobe posted:bad moderation brings out the worst in posters. tell me, do you think the current approach is working? i'm not sure how you define "is working". if the idea of a good ik vs. a bad mod is that the good ik will let the r-word slide sometimes while the bad mod won't, but about six people who don't normally post here will start compulsively using the r-world if the bad mod ever shows his face, then it seems like you get slur use in either situation
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May 17, 2021 15:33
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Mr. Lobe posted:Yes, let me think of the long and storied history of the r-word being used in the communism thread before FA mr. magooed his way through here. times like, uh FR magooed his way in here by doing a ton of terrible moderation re: china and xinjiang. as far as i know, anyway - idk if he has a history of being really obnoxious in some other c-spam megathread. to his credit he opened up discussion and reversed himself on xinjiang, even though i assume a bunch of people outside c-spam complained about it vociferously because, in their eyes, it was tantamount to mod-sanctioned genocide denial. after that he made some forgettable posts in here, probated i think larry (maybe larry wasn't the first?) over using a slur, and then you got all this nonsense which is to say that the "toxic dynamic" seems to be probating for use of the r-word in the first place. if someone gets probated for using the r-word, and a bunch of other people start saying it or 95% saying it in protest, then those people are actually against their speech being curtailed, not the particular name that pops up in the leper's colony Ferrinus has issued a correction as of 15:58 on May 17, 2021 |
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May 17, 2021 15:54
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what matters is moderation policy, not specific mods. that's why i don't personally believe you probating people for the same things is going to be received any better, whereas either you or the hated flavius just being cool and letting people say slurs will go down equally well
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May 17, 2021 15:56
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this actually typifies a particular left-wing deviation pretty well, specifically the anarcho-trot paranoia about Bureaucratism or whatever where the mere fact of someone doing administrative labor inevitably corrupts them beyond recognition and this is why it is simply too dangerous to ever have a state rather than a continuous global insurrection. people confuse the form for the class character
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May 17, 2021 16:06
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John Charity Spring posted:i don't have the same visceral hatred of ferrinus that some people have but what's nonsensical about it? this is actually something that comes up a lot in discussion of marxism and the state generally, the idea that you can separate the state apparatus from the power that drives that apparatus and therefore that an entire mass of people can somehow be tricked or intimidated into compliance with a tiny ruling elite rather than something more straightforward and material going on. it's the kind of thinking that gets you "i support the cuban people, not their government" or the idea that If Only They Knew, the american populace would rise up against the white supremacist police state they live in. in reality the nazi, american, and soviet leaders all ruled with a consent of at least a plurality of the governed, rather than being dominated by a scheming bureaucracy or whatever this is to say that centrist committee from a couple pages ago is correct: the general population of the forums should and does have a say in how it's run. the dictatorial power of the mods and admins is flashy and memorable but ultimately helpless in the face of people just deciding not to post here at all or to derail threads in protest. what this means, though, is that the policy of the mod team actually does come from the forums - calling someone the r-word is probatable now while it wasn't five years ago because there's been a sea change in how membership views it that has filtered up into the volunteer mod team, not because the mods and only the mods (not the iks!!) are being corrupted by the one ring. what appears to be purely personal conflict between one guy and some other guys who don't like him is actually a broader culture clash which history has happened to randomly assign some names and faces to Ferrinus has issued a correction as of 16:29 on May 17, 2021 |
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May 17, 2021 16:27
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grieving for Gandalf posted:I've made my best attempt in the QCS thread. I don't know if anyone will really interact with them in a constructive way but I wanted to try. I'm gonna go play FF14 what do you play as, i'm a black mage
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May 17, 2021 22:51
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out of curiosity, since this finally seems to be wrapping up, does flavius have some sort of history with posters in a bunch of other c-spam threads i don't read or something or has this entirely been about the xinjiang probations and then followup probations in the original marxism thread
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May 18, 2021 02:46
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listen, i don't support the bureaucratic and authoritarian hamas, i just support the palestinian people,
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May 18, 2021 03:51
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this is a good example of why it's a good idea to just moderate language when asked to in a social space (especially an organizing space!!), either by an individual or general culture, rather than to immediately stand on principle and start playing devious logic games or whatever. somebody asking you to clap quietly or refrain from using a particular word understands that they're imposing on you and wouldn't do so unless the alternative felt even worse. these conflicts aren't actually about determining which words are innately evil (the idealist perspective), but rather a process of negotiation and contradiction that manifests as an ad hoc consensus about how we talk to each other (the dialectical perspective)
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May 18, 2021 08:59
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gradenko_2000 posted:so okay am I supposed to probe Flav here for ableism or i wouldn't. let me dig a post i made in the last thread up: Ferrinus posted:
in this case i guess we can sub "cretin" in for "bitch". i definitely have comrades who would get mad at me for even slinging cretin around, and i actually do think there are ideological critiques to be made of even the concepts of "smart" and "stupid" people (as opposed to plans, ideologies, w/e) as such, but finding clever ways to call someone a dumbass is just a part of posting culture here and there's not really call for trying to force it to stop. at the same time i'd expect you to intervene if i went to great lengths to call you developmentally disabled, autistic, afflicted with downs syndrome, whatever, even if none of those phrases are themselves slurs of any sort
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May 18, 2021 09:14
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Homeless Friend posted:It wasn't an ask lol. On one hand they irrevocably tainted it with cynicism in their handling of it and on the other informed us of how little they think of us. It pwns, I love goons so much. well it's an unfortunate situation all around. somehow i imagine that "please don't call me a pedophile" would not have the desired result in most cases in C-SPAM or another rules-light forum, however, especially not after you've just probated someone's friend for using the wrong language
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May 18, 2021 09:16
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there is simply no way to explain conflict in the middle east using historical materialism. can't do it. wrap it up marxailures
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May 18, 2021 18:07
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i really do urge people to just read capital itself, together with comrades if possible. it does help to know that marx is writing much of it in a defensive mode such that he's predicting and preemptively disarming bad-faith objections that his liberal contemporaries might have to various points
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May 18, 2021 18:08
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Celot posted:because establishing an islamic state has nothing to do with responding to material conditions violent religious fundamentalism is a very straightforward result of the class interests of the first world bourgeoisie leading to the systematic destruction of secular, socialist currents in the middle east. so, in many cases the exact same people turn to forms of resistance that have more staying power, because when you go to the global scale the principal contradiction is between imperialism and anti-imperialism, not managers and employees
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May 18, 2021 18:13
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Good Soldier Svejk posted:An overly defensive theory-obsessed upper-class, well educated leftist anyone who's dealt with really disingenuous people in d&d for more than a short stretch of time will recognize something in the way marx constructs his descriptions of surplus value
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May 18, 2021 18:14
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Celot posted:Then class interests can explain any hypothetical, and it stops being useful or meaningful. You’re taking it as a base assumption instead of an observed fact. no, not at all. historical materialism would be confused to the point of maybe being falsified if, rather than what was happened, the western imperialist project proceeded smoothly apace exactly as predicted and iraq, libya, etc. were now functional liberal democracies whose inhabitants made no attempt to resist their own exploitation
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May 18, 2021 18:28
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an important point to make about the base/superstructure model is that beliefs like "black people are lazy" or "women are nurturing" are part of the superstructure, but really-existing division of labor on the basis of race and gender are better understood as being part of the base
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May 18, 2021 18:32
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a couple things that would falsify marxism, c.f. brett o'shea from rev left radio: -really-existing anarcho-capitalism -liberalism that successfully reconciles class conflict and does not give rise to fascism -a class society with no repressive state apparatus
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May 18, 2021 19:23
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Celot posted:If we don’t get to call similar conditions similar, then we’re stuck back with an unfasifiable theory. i might have missed it, what are the similar sets of material conditions that have given rise to ISIS in one case but not in a second case that you think falsify marxism
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May 18, 2021 19:30
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Celot posted:Being totally hosed up by war and poverty in Russia and being totally hosed up by war and poverty in Iraq. two big differences here: 1. iraq was invaded and conquered owing to being too small and nuke-less to realistically resist 2. russians mostly count as white in fact thanks to poverty and deprivation you DO see burgeoning reactionary movements in and around russia, but the conditions aren't so similar that you literally get eastern orthodox isis (as cool as that would be)
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May 18, 2021 19:44
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wait we're comparing 1917 russia to 2003 iraq, not the contemporary versions of each?? lmao
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May 18, 2021 19:46
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Raskolnikov38 posted:it, in fact, was not cool 😔
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May 18, 2021 19:56
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Celot posted:No, because the explanation for ISIS would predict ISIS for Russia too. Not the case with tide analogy. this is definitely not the case either with post-soviet russia (which is what i thought you meant) or with post-ww1 russia. 1917 russia just does not have the same relationship with the usa or The West as the contemporary middle east does. there are some loose similarities (and as multiple people have pointed out, fundamentalist religious militias DO pop up) but this is like complaining that the tides of a planet with three moons don't resemble the tides of earth
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May 18, 2021 20:07
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indigi posted:no it wouldn’t because the *material conditions* of Russia (in 1917 or today) and 2006 Iraq aren’t meaningfully “similar” a seemingly more trivial but also extremely material difference: no internet
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May 18, 2021 20:07
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Celot posted:Then the theory has no predictive power. that doesn't follow. if a theory makes different predictions for different situations, isn't that more reasonable than it making the same prediction for different situations? is the theory of gravity invalid if it makes a different prediction for a ball which is held in the air and released than it does for a ball which is sitting on the ground?
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May 18, 2021 20:11
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i'm honestly coming around on celot's example. 1917 russia was very different from 2003 iraq BUT insofar as both were poor, war-torn, and preyed on by the west, both DID give rise to reactionary religious movements that competed violently against secular (or at least ecumenical), socialist elements. the balance of forces and various other factors were pretty different so you saw different sides ultimately winning out but this seems like a win for materialism from where i'm sitting
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May 18, 2021 20:15
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Celot posted:The difference is an ad hoc prediction for every individual situation instead of finding classes of similar situations and finding a general rule. to continue your analogy, the fact that the predominant religion in the middle east is islam while the predominant religion in russia is christianity is akin to the color of the ball. we expect the ball to have a color. there are some principles governing how that color behaves (optics, study of the wavelengths of light), etc. we expect that color to persist through the ball's motion. depending on where the ball's motion brings the ball, the ball's color might appear to change (i.e. the ball falls somewhere dark or rolls into a place where it then sits and gets bleached by the sun) separately, there is a force pulling the ball down. that force exists whether the ball is resting on the ground OR whether the ball is in the air (and doesn't care whether the ball is currently ascending or descending). the force does not explain literally everything about the ball (gravity won't tell you why the ball is red, or why it's made of rubber) but is indispensable in predicting the ball's motion. in this analogy gravity is akin to the class struggle the relevant forces to the rise of ISIS in modern day iraq and the black hundreds (and equivalent groups) in 20th-century russia were such things as western imperialism, local government collapse, etc Celot posted:You don’t see it as a problem that you can use your theory to predict A and not-A? i don't get what your A and not-A are. it seems to me that if "A" is "worsening material conditions coupled with foreign oppression giving rise to reactionary fundamentalist religious movements", A happened in both cases
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May 18, 2021 20:54
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Jon Joe posted:here we can see the beginnings of religious fundamentalism in response to material conditions in this very thread not for no reason are male engineers the demographic most vulnerable to radicalization into ISIS
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May 18, 2021 20:56
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StashAugustine posted:The funny thing is, I'm sympathetic to the idea that Marxism isn't a hard science because the conditions are too chaotic and you can't exactly repeat "experiments", but that doesn't means it's invalid for a first pass estimate of what happens. Like even of we argue Russia 17 and Germany 18/19 are literally the same conditions (someone who knows more can say why that's bullshit) then you can just say "they had similar reactions to the conditions but Lenin got lucky and the Germans didn't" and it still makes sense this is why the sciences i like to compare marxism to are things like astronomy and plate tectonics
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May 18, 2021 20:59
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