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 [italy] [old cars] [microcars] [money pits] [death traps] [tarantella napoletana plays ominously in the distance]I think I've always liked microcars, but about 20 years ago I dated someone who really made me think I'd like to own one someday. She loves Smart Cars and Isettas and Messerschmitts and taught me to drive stick in her Porsche 356 (replica -- she wasn't that loaded). BMW Isettas became (and are still) my favorite, but even more impractical than most micros, expensive, hard to find, and with very limited parts availability. Even so, one day when I was visiting the Getty museum in LA, I saw a group of 4 adults in a Riley Elf and I thought, "Someday, I will have a microcar."  Well, around 2016 I was doing searches for something on craigslist (not Fiat 500s) and a Fiat 500 popped up. I think it was $12k. I was surprised, because I was used to seeing nice Isettas going for $40k+. I didn't buy that one, but when I searched for other Fiat 500s, I realized that they weren't that expensive, the parts were easy to get, and they weren't incredibly rare in SoCal. The ones I saw on craigslist ranged in price from $8k (oof) to about $20k for very nice ones, maybe $25k for Abarth replicas in great condition. I eventually saw an ad for one at a father/son Italian car shop near Beverly Hills. It was a 1967 Fiat 500F that had been owned by a doctor near Palermo for decades. He had been a member of the Italian Fiat 500 historical society and the stickers indicated he had been to many of their rallies and shows. It had a Fiat 126 engine (650cc) and drivetrain (4 speed with syncromesh!!) but retained the "classic" dash layout instead of the more modern (ugly, IMO) 70s style. The paint was not great, especially in the engine bay, and I sensed that maybe there were other issues, but I bought it anyway for $10k. BTW, it had never been registered in the US, so that was great. Maybe I should have taken it as a sign that the "glovebox" hadn't been emptied and when I cleared it out there was a still-wrapped condom floating around. I held it up to the elder Italian and he said, "Eeee... the doctor he... like the women. Hehe." Okay. Maybe the prep for this car wasn't really that thorough (it wasn't). Could have been worse.  I had it towed back to Orange County because I wasn't about to jump on the 405 South with it and I didn't have the 5-6 hours required to take surface streets to PCH and on down the coast. For the first few months, it was great. It had minimal issues, but the engine bay was getting super hot (air/oil-cooled, if it's not obvious) and I started to think, "Hmm, perhaps some things are missing here." I found a microcar mechanic close by and he said, "Yeah you're missing the air intake tube that routes air from outside of the engine bay to the engine. Also an air filter. Also the heat shield that keeps the exhaust from flooding the engine bay with heat." So that was excellent. After addressing those things, the car ran pretty well for about a year. I mostly drove it to and from work one or two days a week, to a local café on the weekends, up Pacific Coast Highway -- only one "long" trip to Long Beach. Then a bunch of dumb poo poo started happening. They were all relatively minor things, but they resulted in needing tows to my mechanic over and over. And when it finally got into good running shape, one weekend on the way to the café, the engine started running terribly. I limped it over to Theo and he said yeah, you dropped a valve and it ate the cylinder. Since it was already an old engine, I made the only AI-appropriate decision, which was to get a actually new engine, built by Theo. 675cc, big carb, fancy cam, big Nanni oil pan, custom exhaust and heat shield. About 30hp (vs. 17hp for the stock 500 engine). That was  but fantastic. Also the gearing became hilariously useless as I would shift out of 1st in less than a second from a dead stop. The car could get to dangerously high speeds on teeny tiny tires. So, of course, new wheels with wider and taller tires. The car became much more stable, the gearing became practical again, and the car was just more drivable. Oh, but because of all the bondo on the fenders, they couldn't be rolled, so I continue to have nasty tire rub in the rear on bumps. The little car continued to be kind of brat over the last year after one of the rear brake cylinders failed. I took the opportunity to upgrade the fronts to discs, which has made a huge difference.    As the Catholics like to say, you can never have too many. Italians have told me that St. Christopher really isn't "a thing" for them like it is for the Germans, so we have Francis of Assisi (so I don't hit any animals) and Our Lady of Ghisallo (patroness of cyclists).  The last thing I did, just today, was replace the 380mm stock steering wheel with a 330mm Nardi "deep corn" with 80mm offset. I'm 6'1"/185cm tall, so my knees were constantly fighting with the stock steering wheel, especially when shifting. I did this job myself and I'm determined to do more of the work on the car myself in the years to come. I used to always have mechanics do my car work because I had so many bicycle tasks to do myself, but that's slowed down and while Theo is incredible, he's also paid appropriately for his expertise. It's time for me to gently caress this old car up myself.  Future projects:
Replace the worn out rubber mats with cloth mats. Install oil pressure and temp gauges, which are a little more important with this motor. Fix the rear suspension, which makes a weird noise on the right side during acceleration from stop and on left turns. Refresh the nasty, chipped e-brake lever and shifter with something nicer. Maybe replace the rear shocks with something more robust than the stock shocks. Maybe a radio and speaker install, which would involve replacing the ratty rear shelf. Bonus far future plans: replace all of the bondoed body panels with new steel panels (which you can buy from mrfiat.com!) and repaint the whole drat thing something fancy. rope kid fucked around with this message at 17:18 on May 16, 2021 |
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May 16, 2021 04:14
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Double the power on a riny microcar with tiny drum brakes (disk now, but still). I am 100% here for it.  Edit: Didn't the Abarth version have a permanently open trunk lid for cooling on these? Elmnt80 fucked around with this message at 05:03 on May 16, 2021 |
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May 16, 2021 04:57
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Great to see long time posters back with some cool project threads Edit : Do you want a different thread tag?
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May 16, 2021 05:01
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Elmnt80 posted:Edit: Didn't the Abarth version have a permanently open trunk lid for cooling on these?  CAT INTERCEPTOR posted:Great to see long time posters back with some cool project threads  Yes, please. 60s, thank you.
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May 16, 2021 05:35
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Awesome looking car, love the wheels.
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May 16, 2021 05:53
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Ty. I like the wheels a lot as well. I'd like to go a little wider with the tires, but I can't do that without rolling the fenders and I can't roll the fenders unless I replace them due to the aforementioned bondo issues. Some footage I took in the car earlier today when testing the steering wheel: https://twitter.com/jesawyer/status/1393690287147339778
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May 16, 2021 06:20
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rope kid posted:Future projects: I would suggest to not get too aggressive in putting rando parts on a 500 and try to keep it as period as possible, i see a lot of historical 500 on the roads with random china crap on them and the clash from the original Vaglia/Magneti Marelli kit and aliexpress bright neon blue parts is terrible. Other than that good luck 
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May 16, 2021 09:55
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Great looking 500, I've always loved them but like the Isetta prices started rising quicker than expected and I missed out on those. That extra power from the 675cc has got to wake the car up a bit. How have you found parts availability? You mention a stereo install, can I recommend a good bluetooth speaker? We picked up this 126 around Thanksgiving and have been really enjoying it. Towed it to WI and played in the snow, plan on towing it on our next FL vacation to run around as well. We did run into an issue when the alternator died and had to source one from Italy which took a while, otherwise it has been absolutely great to run around in. 
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May 16, 2021 11:02
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NitroSpazzz posted:We picked up this 126 around Thanksgiving and have been really enjoying it. Towed it to WI and played in the snow, plan on towing it on our next FL vacation to run around as well. We did run into an issue when the alternator died and had to source one from Italy which took a while, otherwise it has been absolutely great to run around in. Cool car, just remember to keep the underbody clean in winter, 126(any fiat until the punto 2 era really) don't like salt at all.
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May 16, 2021 11:15
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SlowBloke posted:Cool car, just remember to keep the underbody clean in winter, 126(any fiat until the punto 2 era really) don't like salt at all. We pressure washed the undercarriage a few times after the WI trip, snow and salt isn't a big concern most of the time in TN.
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May 16, 2021 12:00
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NitroSpazzz posted:Great looking 500, I've always loved them but like the Isetta prices started rising quicker than expected and I missed out on those. That extra power from the 675cc has got to wake the car up a bit. How have you found parts availability? You mention a stereo install, can I recommend a good bluetooth speaker? Parts availability is great. mrfiat.com has everything and the prices are very reasonable (my other cars are a 2004 VW R32 and a 1985 VW Vanagon Westy with an EJ22 engine swap so let that calibrate "reasonable").
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May 16, 2021 14:21
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I almost forgot, if you have a car that is too old for 2-din radios and you don’t want to destroy too many panels, alpine does a kit called freestyle which let you spread the parts around the chassis without having to dig a crater in the center console.
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May 16, 2021 14:53
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NitroSpazzz posted:You mention a stereo install, can I recommend a good bluetooth speaker? Do they make wired (powered) Bluetooth speakers? Sounds a little silly I guess but I'm not really looking for a head unit as much as I'm looking for installed speakers. SlowBloke posted:I almost forgot, if you have a car that is too old for 2-din radios and you don’t want to destroy too many panels, alpine does a kit called freestyle which let you spread the parts around the chassis without having to dig a crater in the center console.
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May 16, 2021 17:16
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We've just got a little one that fits in the 'glovebox', could be powered in the sense you could run a wire from a cigarette lighter or hack up a phone charger and hook it to a 12v feed.
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May 16, 2021 20:41
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Tiny peoples car squad assemble! Bluetooth controller if you want mounted controls, bluetooth enabled amplifier if you just want to use your phone. https://www.sonicelectronix.com/ci2735-marine-bluetooth-controllers-kits.html https://www.sonicelectronix.com/ci2839-utv-atv-sxs-bluetooth-kits.html https://www.sonicelectronix.com/ci1702-all-car-amplifiers.html?category_id=1702&filter_f_op_2351_10051=1 https://www.sonicelectronix.com/ci1743-mini-amps.html
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May 16, 2021 22:59
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Wow some old school goons reappearing in this thread Nice cars there Bulk and Ropekid!
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May 17, 2021 01:43
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 I took the car for an extended drive down PCH and up Laguna Canyon yesterday and made some observations. First, the car is so, so much more stable at high (read: 60 mph+) speeds with the wider tires. The front disc brakes stop so much better than the drums that I really have no concerns about needing to panic stop at highway (note: not freeway) speeds. I mean, other than being in an ancient car that would crumple like an aluminum can if I hit anything. Second, there's still a really annoying rattle on acceleration and left hand turns. It comes from the engine bay area, passenger side. I thought it might be the heat shield but removing it didn't make the problem go away. I ground down areas that could touch the exhaust but it didn't make any difference.   My mechanic thinks it's something in the suspension. I need to raise the rear about 3/4" anyway because I'm getting rear tire rub on bumps and I can't roll the epic Bondo fenders any more. Third, and this is something I noted with the new engine shortly after I got it, when the engine is warmed up, if I let off the accelerator, the engine keeps getting gas for a second or two as though I didn't let off the accelerator. This is less alarming than it may sound. We're talking about a 30hp vehicle, albeit one that weighs 1,100 lbs. Still, it's not great. When the car is able to keep moving, the engine bay stays surprisingly cool. The large oil pan does a great job and it can cruise at ~50mph at relatively low RPM in 4th with the taller tires. In stop and go the engine bay gets quite warm but not alarmingly so. Still, I think I'd like an oil temperature gauge at some point. Fiat 500s don't have conventional oil filters so I can't use a sandwich adapter. I'll have to actually tap into the sump, which is a little alarming, but alas,
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Jun 1, 2021 17:00
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Driving this 500 down the PCH must be a dream Does it have a fan? Could an electric one be added? My only aircooled experience is with a ZAZ (you should get one if you ever get bored of your reliable 500) and there's a big fan blowing across the cylinders and as far s I know, it normally doesn't overheat.  or maybe steal an oil cooler from something modern?
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Jun 1, 2021 17:10
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rope kid posted:Fiat 500s don't have conventional oil filters so I can't use a sandwich adapter. I'll have to actually tap into the sump, which is a little alarming, but alas, Most historic 500 used in racing events tend to use the sensor used in the lancia / auto bianchi a112 abarth or a relatively similar unit(like the one used in the mk1 panda). Part was cheap to source last time I checked(give or take 14€). SlowBloke fucked around with this message at 18:15 on Jun 1, 2021 |
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Jun 1, 2021 18:11
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mobby_6kl posted:Does it have a fan? Could an electric one be added? As for temp probe and gauges we have the larger pan with a temp probe hole, would be easy for any decent welder to add a bung with the right threads to the pan you have. This goes to gauges on the dash, supposedly Veglia Borletti gauges in a Alfa GTV housing. I really like having oil temp and pressure visible on old stuff, even more so on something air cooled. 
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Jun 1, 2021 18:26
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do fiat 500s have that gently caress awful transverse leaf setup found on the 126?
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Jun 1, 2021 18:48
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I thought it was supposed to be Big Iron? no really though this is a great thread; I love seeing car choices I'd personally never make and this car is great.
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Jun 2, 2021 01:41
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If you ever want to go for overkill, I think there is a kit to fit a modern Fial TwinAir 2 cylinder in the fiat 500. It is good for about 70 HP. The other option that I though of a few years ago but lack both the Fiat and the engine is putting a for 1L 3 cylinder turbo in the back. Those engines are anywhere from 100-140 HP. I see how the rear tires are cambered, is that because the 500 has a swing axle suspension? The 600 that I have seen and drove did not have the rear wheels at that kind of camber.
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Jun 2, 2021 05:59
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Toupee Groupie posted:If you ever want to go for overkill, I think there is a kit to fit a modern Fial TwinAir 2 cylinder in the fiat 500. It is good for about 70 HP. The other option that I though of a few years ago but lack both the Fiat and the engine is putting a for 1L 3 cylinder turbo in the back. Those engines are anywhere from 100-140 HP. 70hp in this one would be terrifying 140hp would be incredible (witness/valhalla yadda) and wpuld probably make it do wheelies.
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Jun 2, 2021 10:18
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How did I manage to miss a tiny car thread? 
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Jun 2, 2021 12:06
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Rope Kid, or others, we've been chasing an overheating issue on our 126 since April and I'm running out of ideas. I drove the car to work in late February, alternator died and that was the last time it ran well. Took until mid to late Apriil to source and replace the alternator. We were throwing belts for a while, eventually fixed that with new alternator pulley and correct length belt. Since then the car runs great but after 5-6 miles the temp starts to creep up and will continue past 270F, where our temp gauge maxes out, if I were to keep driving. Thermostat and air flat are working as they should. Fresh oil change with Castrol 10w40, fresh transmission fluid as well. Timing is correct. Doesn't feel like we have any brake drag, parking brake is correctly adjusted. Next on my list of stuff to check is verify fan isn't slipping on alternator shaft and making sure air feed to that is clear of any obstructions. Car will idle for 45 minutes in the driveway when it's 90 degrees out and won't hit 190 on the temp gauge but I know even reving in the driveway is much different than driving down the road.
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Jul 31, 2021 22:16
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On my 500, the air intake was initially missing and it made a huge temp difference. Also, IDK 126s but do you have heat shields in the engine bay? Are they in place?
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Aug 1, 2021 02:46
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NitroSpazzz posted:Rope Kid, or others, we've been chasing an overheating issue on our 126 since April and I'm running out of ideas. If I had to take a wild guess, when you replaced the alternator something got bent/pinched/ moved and after a bit of driving it will deform/slip and start blocking the cooling circuit. I would suggest pulling out the engine and do an overall system inspection. SlowBloke fucked around with this message at 10:28 on Aug 1, 2021 |
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Aug 1, 2021 09:42
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I don’t know much about these cars, but is it possible the carburetor is lean in whatever circuit you operate on @ that driving condition??
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Aug 1, 2021 15:52
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Lean is possible, might be worth pulling the carb for a cleaning. All heat shields, ducting, etc are in place and appear to be installed correctly. Trying to avoid pulling the engine but who knows, I'm close. On the advice of someone on the air cooled Fiat FB group I did a test run this morning without the air filter. Bit under a 10 mile loop and it just barely hit 230 towards the end going up a hill, it was only 70 degrees though.
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Aug 1, 2021 16:35
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BTW the car is in the process of having a bearing replaced on the rear passenger side; it's the presumed source of the increasingly loud rattle/godawful noise on acceleration/left-hand turns. It's also getting raised a bit in the back because I'm still having bad problems with tire rub. I tried to take some friends out for brunch and the extra weight in the back made it impossible to drive.  If I can't get adequate clearance in the back with these changes, I'm going to have to more seriously consider replacing the rear fender panels. It seems extreme, but going back down in tire size will negatively affect the gearing and the rear fenders are too Bondo-ed to roll anymore.
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Aug 2, 2021 22:39
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Roll them fenders!
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Aug 3, 2021 23:21
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I won't go into all of the dumb details but my mechanic fixed a bunch of worn parts in the axles/wheel bearings believing that was the source of the noise. It was not. It turned out to be what I thought it was: the custom exhaust/bracket/heat shield rattling against the engine bay sheet metal during left hand turns. He had my car for a month and didn't fix the thing I brought it in for. When I said, "Hey the sound is still there," he pushed on the exhaust until he saw it flexing into the engine bay metal, then used a crowbar to push the sheet metal away. Problem solved. Anyway the tire rubbing is still not fixed so I have to decide which of the following I am willing to do: * Size down the rear tires slightly. This would make the gearing worse but maybe not that bad. * Swap out the rear shocks for aftermarket units so I can create more clearance that way. When I bring this up with my mechanic, he is oddly silent/evasive about it. * Cut the Bondo fenders out and weld flared fenders in, then repaint those panels
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Sep 10, 2021 21:17
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What's the rear suspension set up like? Springs would affect ride height, the rear looks pretty low but I don't know what the recommended heights are.
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Sep 10, 2021 23:27
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It the stock rear suspension. My mechanic has put some spacers in and it helped a little. There are coilovers available, so theoretically I could raise the right height, but it would create more positive camber and there aren't (AFAIK) camber correction kits. The positive camber is already pretty significant so I don't really want to screw around with that too much. We're going to try going down from 145 tires to 135s in the rear + rolling the fenders as well as he can given the Bondo. I think the gearing will probably be fine. More importantly, it's a relatively inexpensive approach to fixing the issue. In other news, the rest of the car seems to be doing well. Now that the exhaust rattle is gone and the rear axles have been replaced, it's a much smoother, quieter experience overall. If the tire size fix works, hopefully I can leave this project alone and focus on my van for a while.
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Sep 23, 2021 21:11
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Spacers, a li'l fender rolling, and smaller tires did the trick. It's driving great now with no rubbing at all. Acceleration is a little quicker and I don't really care about the top end as long as it's stable at country highway/PCH speeds.   
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Oct 5, 2021 18:52
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rope kid posted:Spacers, a li'l fender rolling, and smaller tires did the trick. It's driving great now with no rubbing at all. Acceleration is a little quicker and I don't really care about the top end as long as it's stable at country highway/PCH speeds. I see you are a man of taste and sophistication.
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Oct 6, 2021 15:27
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That looks really nice.
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Oct 13, 2021 07:45
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Your car is great. But have you considered that it is missing what’s clearly a jaunty OEM cappello?
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Oct 14, 2021 13:01
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I took it out for the second weekend drive in a row and it's great, no issues. It was an expensive road to get to this point so hopefully I can take it easy and just enjoy it for a while. Also hooray "45" thousand km. 
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Oct 17, 2021 04:56
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