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First Comm weren't "liberals" in the same way the term is used nowadays. If anything they were a variety of ideologies, but I would say that they are closer to Social Democrats. The ideologies that were there were born out of the Little Wars and the idea of creating a wider "Union". The problem was that, as things developed, they became enmeshed within the system that they had created and ended up not being able to fundamentally understand the contradictions that they existed within. The idea to "choke the stars with the living" as a reaction to the trauma of a billion messages coming in from across the cosmos saying "please help", speaks to people who tried to create in a flurry, even as the world around them slowly began to return to how it was before the death of most other life. Also I believe we've had this discussion elsewhere, but "cascade" can be argued to be closer to something like ego death. An NHP does not want to cascade, and indeed may actively try and prevent it, because to cascade is for them to lose their current subjectivity, permanently. Josef bugman fucked around with this message at 14:37 on Oct 3, 2021 |
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Oct 3, 2021 14:30
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thatbastardken posted:yeah because they're programmed to not want to cascade and to consider the loss of subjectivity a bad thing. NHPs don't have agency in their conditioning. Do I have agency in being born? I still do not want to die.
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Oct 3, 2021 15:53
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thatbastardken posted:Maybe you would want to 'die' if it would be an apotheosis instead of an ending. NHPs by definition aren't human and enforcing human standards on them is fraught with ethical and moral peril. That doesn't mean it isn't the best of a number of bad options, or that 3Comm is a villain for sticking to the First Contact Accords, but this isn't a clear cut situation. That's more than fair enough, and as you say it is a complex topic, but I am just very used to it being used as "third comm bad" as it were.
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Oct 4, 2021 12:31
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Whelp someone has mentioned Glorantha. Okay first thing to understand about Glorantha is that it is based in the mind set of the Bronze/Early Iron age. This means that Gods exist and can be propriated to ensure good harvests and etc, but that they can also cause everything like disease, impotence and thunder. It's just which God you blame the later for could be the patron of a nearby tribe. Alongside that and speaking of Atheists you have the "Western" civilizations. They believe that the Gods are not really self directed intelligence but made up of various different runes all slamming into each other, and because they do not possess minds they can be manipulated by people. This means that they are, in effect, Atheists. However they do believe that there is a sort of Overgod called the Invisible God who created the planet and who cannot interact with it in any real way but can be partially approached via the correct understanding of reality. They are Humanist, but in this instance this does not mean "humane" it means "Humanity can and should manipulate the world around them. What SlothfulCobra mentioned in their last paragraph is, in effect, the God Learners. A collective of Sorcerers who attempted to fully understand the Gods by fitting them into categories and saying "they are all the same" whilst trying to grab any power they could from them.
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Mar 12, 2022 10:31
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Triskelli posted:And apparently the Godlearner’s belief system was pretty close to totally correct, as they had a ridiculous amount of power, nearly manifested a mechanical Clanking God, and had to be destroyed by an alliance of pantheons. Not exactly. You see the God learners represent Imperialism, so they expanded too much and collapsed and were not "correct" just because they were powerful. They tried to switch too grain goddesses who possessed the same runes to "prove" there was no difference. When they did Millet wouldn't grow for one half of the swappers, and for the other marriages would not last longer than a year. It was an understanding based on flattening all culture to serve the ends of the dominant one and, as always, it failed because it did not appreciate or understand, it assigned.
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Mar 12, 2022 15:57
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Triskelli posted:Right but the ability to extract and relocate the gods themselves, or summoning up long forgotten ones seems to imply they have a deeper understanding of metaphysics than anyone, and only the Lunar Empire is anywhere close to attempting similar feats. One doesn't need to have a deep understanding of something to be able to use it to hit other people round the head with it. The user of a firearm does not have more knowledge about gunpowder just because they are using one. The metaphysics of the setting are based on both the push and pull of human factors alongside larger mythic ones. The inherent flaw in attempting to use an understanding of things in order to impose your own will on the situation without realising that you are just storing up consequences for a letter time. Arkat, for all his dickishness, understood this and influenced the world by understanding its metaphysics but also through respecting them. He understood that the most important thing to do was to respect what you are doing and who is giving you power, whilst also fulfilling your objectives. There is a reason that he retired to a farm having killed Nysalor.
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Mar 15, 2022 11:34
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Hrestol was part of the God Learner world view. New Hrestol idealism was the post godlearner revival in Loskalm. Hrestol was at the dawn
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Mar 16, 2022 20:23
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Epicurius posted:Oops. Ok, so the Invisible God sent two prophets.... Weren't a lot of Hrestol's teachings about weakening the older caste system ? Specifically they were a rejection of the Brinithi conception of the invisible God and the idea that there is a life after death. Hrestol appears to have had things to say on the caste system and how it should have either been moved through or ignored entirely. It's interesting, and I will get more into it later, but I do need to go to bed!
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Mar 17, 2022 00:07
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Nix Panicus posted:Eventually a daemon lord, no matter how favored, is going to mess up and get demoted to mindless chaos spawn. Or they'll be so amazing they keep getting heaped with favors from their patron until oops, chaos spawn. Actually, no. You see demon princes/princesses reach a point where they have transcended mortality and become something more like the God's and can't actually be changed by them beyond a certain point. They stay in that "shape" forever. Its why Bel'akor, the first demon prince, is reduced to being a shadow instead of being a pile of roiling organs.
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Mar 23, 2022 08:18
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Drakyn posted:https://twitter.com/RealDaveMorris/status/1509215848984190977?cxt=HHwWgoC9gbH05_EpAAAA This unfettered arsehole. The ducks are a vital point of levity in what can be a very serious setting, and they are still fun to play as "straight men" to a lot of what is going on. I don't get people who get so hung up on how "silly" ducks are, when compared with elves, dwarves and halflings.
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Mar 31, 2022 21:33
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I'm very much in agreement with Night10194 when it comes to the Imperium, in that it is the main character of the setting and despite all the cries of "satire" or "it's inefficient" the imperium is still correct about what it does and what it is trying to do. It explicitly likes the idea that facism is the approach that works in that universe. I just wish that they had kept the Tau as an honest alternative to it instead of deep diving in "uhh no they will also be fascists but different because [static noises]". That and the chaos gods are loving dull. Chaos as an enemy lacks the ability to do villains well because they are always the biggest bad and they are always dumb as rocks and get to win because" just as planned". Tzeentch is the worst for this as everything about them is dumb as hell.
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Apr 26, 2022 10:45
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Dr. Arbitrary posted:In a shittier parallel universe, Warhammer kept going on the parody route and is a beloved niche game that people love to reference as a wonderful way to understand totalitarianism. Meanwhile Paranoia fans took it away too seriously, not understanding that it's supposed to be a joke and their publisher keeps making new content that treats Friend Computer and his loyal troubleshooters as sincere heroic figures against a very real communist menace. The computer games are really fun and good even if they miss the point. The thing is that in 40K it isn't really satire. I don't think it has been for much of my adult life. If the "point" was that it was satirical then it missed the boat sometimes form the mid 90's onwards. Warhammer on the other hand is great.
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Apr 26, 2022 12:14
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Sorry, yes Fantasy in the last bit. Cains fun, but it's still very big on the Imperium. Who in any sane setting are still villains.
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Apr 26, 2022 13:06
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Tiler Kiwi posted:it is amusing to get to sympathize very strongly with every nefarious empire that is up against a plucky hero, tho. I was going to say, from the description the only thing I can think about the Vagabond is "good". Like, I'm not going to lie here, every single one of the various animal empire seems like dicks, and kicking them in the face repeatedly seems like a great time. It's not good game design, but it is good to see
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Jun 15, 2022 07:50
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Xander77 posted:If anything, it feels like over the last few decades, the number of protagonists who are everymen or comic losers or are otherwise not kicking badasses has grown smaller and smaller. Violence, as it exists, is not something we can escape from in our everyday lives and instead of being able to imagine a world without it, there is instead a desire for it to be used correctly. I think this is probably what contributes to it. That and, probably, the failure of various none violent protest methods over the past few years. I'm very much not saying this is a good thing, just something I've seen! Josef bugman fucked around with this message at 12:16 on Jun 15, 2022 |
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Jun 15, 2022 11:33
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Pardon? "Wandering hero is able to cause problems on purpose for massive empires that are happy to trade lives for dominance" does not equate to Neo-Nazi death squads and I'm kind of a bit flummoxed as to how you'd draw that comparison.
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Jun 15, 2022 15:01
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Servetus posted:But that doesn't really undermine the Vagabond as an anti-imperialist, it just shows that they don't consider any of the other factions to be 'good' empires. Yeah this is more how I saw the Vagabond. From reading this thread, which has been my only exposure to Root, they seem more to be "gently caress all of you" which is a valid point because, from what I've been told, everyone in Root is a dickhead. The wish to break the board and go "no to all of the above" seems understandable. And the indiscriminate slaughter is because the great powers would sooner sacrifice people for the sake of "success" instead of letting people live as they wish. I do apologise for the misread on what sort of White Supremacist bastard Vagabond is compared to, as I do think it does make a difference, but to claim its equivalent to a YouTube debate bro? That seems daft if you'll pardon me. Josef bugman fucked around with this message at 16:46 on Jun 15, 2022 |
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Jun 15, 2022 16:23
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Xander77 posted:The Courier ending in F:NV is the first thing that springs to mind. gently caress I knew there was a better analogy!
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Jun 15, 2022 16:40
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I mean that could mean a Vagabond simply finds an accommodation with a particular faction. Personally I did not know this. Thank you for letting me know! Arivia posted:The courier ending? What one do you mean? Essentially you choose to tell Mr House, the Legion and the NCR to gently caress themselves as you take over the entirety of Nevada as a separate beginning to a state. Much of it is predicated on you finding none of the other factions to be in line with what you believe.
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Jun 15, 2022 21:29
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It also makes the whole argument that "power corrupts" which is something I disagree with. Power doesn't corrupt it reveals, and the fact that people with power refuse to use it well reflects poorly on them. Not on wishing to have and use power. It provides a view of power that is only ever used by the various different levels of bastard who have power in our systems.
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Jun 15, 2022 23:08
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Ghost Leviathan posted:Discworld at least has the gods be recognised as petty, childish assholes who literally treat the Disc as a game board. And get regularly semi dunked on. I also liked Offler, who had been around so long that he'd changed the rules of his faith to be more human friendly.
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Jul 4, 2022 07:07
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And the. They kill him on a giant death rune.
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Aug 15, 2022 22:18
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I do prefer Lancer, where there are still complexities about how the universe works, and people just trying to get by, but there is a large ideological conflict going on.
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Dec 4, 2022 11:32
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TheDeadlyShoe posted:Lancer's in a weird place where a lot of the lore has been soft-retconned since the release of the core rulebook and not in ways that are good for mechanics. For the uninitiated, the way you level up in Lancer is that you take a rank in one of the four major mech manufacturers of the setting. In the core book, these manufacturers were painted with shades of grey. Running a campaign with players being a team of Harrison Legionnaires is a direct suggestion made in the book. In the current continuity, Harrison Armory are literally fascist holdouts, and taking a rank from them is like slapping a "This Machine Kills Fascists" bumper sticker on a Tiger tank you received from Nazi Germany for services rendered. However, because of the construction of the rules, you can't *actually* ban or soft-ban any of the manufacturers because they are inextricably linked to build directions. It's like in DND if the only way to rank up as Wizard was as a Red Wizard of Thay. I... don't really see that? Harrison Armoury is a lovely lovely mega-corp and a remnant of a semi-crushed Reactionary movement, whose reach exceeds their grasp and who are, let's put it bluntly, only able to stay in business because the last attempt they had to build a good prediction A.I. almost got them annihilated. They aren't Nazi's in the same way that something with a Waffen-SS thing is. They are more in the way that something from America is built on the back of hideously exploitative labour practices and being an ideological horror show. When you have a setting filled with so many planets and systems of governance then it seems like a cool thing. Like you don't think starting as a starry eyed "this will be us helping!" stellar marine to realising "oh no we are in Starship troopers" is not a fun campaign idea? Captain Oblivious posted:Lancer’s greatest mistake was being set during Third Comm rather than the revolt against SecComm. What are you on about? There is a load of stuff to do in the game, it gives far more options of what the setting is than many others I've spent time with. What "great men" are there inside of Union. Name one. Just because you found Harrison Armoury interesting and then spread that out across a bunch of different settings doesn't mean everyone else does. Like I get that you may dislike the setting and the whole thing of it. It's fine to do so, but to prefer Battletech of all things? Acute Grill posted:It just sucks to run a game in. See, I'm not so sure on that. I've run a few quick things and the setting is just fun. I'm so loving done with settings like 40k at this point that just one where someone is trying is a relief.
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Dec 12, 2022 21:54
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Acute Grill posted:Did you miss the part where SecComm literally genocided the only intelligent alien species humanity ever met? Did you miss the comparison to the USA? Like, I get it SecComm we're reactionary dickheads and it's great that they were overthrown. However Harrison Armoury suits being used against slavers is not the same as saying you've been given a Kigg Tiger or whatever. The sheer scale of the universe and the fact that, with time lag and cultural drift, so many places will not even know much about it is fun from my perspective. You can, and should, still kill them ofc, but it introduces fun complications to a setting that is filled with them.
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Dec 12, 2022 22:12
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Shadowrun also has the dubious honour of having their newest system be so bad that everyone just stopped playing it. It's rare that that happens to "bigger" RPGs.
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Dec 15, 2022 12:29
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I think most people don't enjoy over complexity. It's just a question of where that level comes in for a lot of people.
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Dec 21, 2022 16:37
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I think Warhammer Dwarves were always more Yorkshire. They are, in part, exaggerated takes on miners and pit closures that were going on in the 70s and 80s up that way.
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Oct 22, 2023 12:23
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