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The Athletic had a really great piece about heading.
quote:Is heading absolutely necessary to the game of football?
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# ? Aug 15, 2021 16:28 |
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# ? May 4, 2024 07:07 |
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if we are being realistic, but lol good luck at getting those out
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# ? Aug 15, 2021 16:54 |
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Good thread OP. Have been thinking about it on and off since they decided to limit headers in training the other week. Feel like they're starting to have the same issues that they have in modern rugby where every player on the pitch is stronger and quicker than they've ever been and the forces involved in a clash of heads are starting to cause problems. Would be very weird for the first few seasons seeing players giving away indirect free kicks because they're instinctively going up to flick on a goal kick or whatever, but then in 20 years you'll have a new generation of players who've been trained from the beginning that using your head is like using your hands.
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# ? Aug 15, 2021 17:18 |
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Every player should be allowed to do 1 header per match and any after that is an indirect free kick
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# ? Aug 15, 2021 19:30 |
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as always, we should just follow the wisdom of Kevin Keegan
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# ? Aug 15, 2021 20:23 |
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the sex ghost posted:Good thread OP. Have been thinking about it on and off since they decided to limit headers in training the other week. Yeah I think this is right. The toughest thing is always making a rule change because everyone currently playing the game has always played it the current way, but ultimately as long as the rules change consistently players will adapt. In the end it's football not headball and maybe it is worth trialing no headers outside the penalty area. I have a feeling the game of football would be fine without them. Also this part of the article in the OP quote:Players who can control the ball effectively with their chest might become more vaunted. just made me think that somewhere in the world Marouane Fellaini's ears perked up
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# ? Aug 15, 2021 20:51 |
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what if only one person was allowed to head the ball, a designated headerer that comes on for corners and set pieces like the kicker in american football, only he's a massive unit with prior brain damage so nothing's lost
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# ? Aug 15, 2021 20:54 |
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Eau de MacGowan posted:what if only one person was allowed to head the ball, a designated headerer that comes on for corners and set pieces like the kicker in american football, only he's a massive unit with prior brain damage so nothing's lost Angling for a career change are we?
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# ? Aug 15, 2021 21:18 |
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That’s an interesting article and a good idea for a thread. What they fail to really address (and it’s probably because the data doesn’t exist) is if those headers outside the box are what’s majorly contributing to these long term injuries. It seems like me and you recycling our beer cans when the coal electricity plant 50 miles away is spewing poo poo in to the air 24 hours a day convinced we are helping. It does matter but are the gains going to be that big? I guess if even one person doesn’t get a lifelong brain injury it’s a success but there will have to be more done. I think it’s absolutely worth trying, and maybe not heading outside the box will lead to less heading in general by future players. I just don’t expect it to do much in the near future and I hope the studies continue.
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# ? Aug 15, 2021 21:41 |
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Famethrowa posted:
I honestly wonder if this would work to prevent the damage in question. Everyone was making GBS threads their pants about the halo device in F1 before it was implemented and now nobody says anything. It has saved lives, and the racing hasn’t gotten any worse (because of the device anyway).
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# ? Aug 15, 2021 21:43 |
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Gigi Galli posted:I honestly wonder if this would work to prevent the damage in question. Everyone was making GBS threads their pants about the halo device in F1 before it was implemented and now nobody says anything. It has saved lives, and the racing hasn’t gotten any worse (because of the device anyway). I can't imagine it hurting. Reading the article, my mind went to those awful jarring falls that happen just as part of normal play. Especially when they land flat on back and risk bumping their head through momentum. I also am really struggling to imagine football without nod-ons. What would a 50-50 look like? Would it still be dangerous having players potentially running and jumping with their chest?
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# ? Aug 15, 2021 21:54 |
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iirc they found the effects of CTE in NFL players was not so much from the concussions, which obviously didn’t help, rather the thousands of times helmets/heads hit one another in mundane activities, not dissimilar to headers in training. I agree with the comments about the rule changes, it’ll be fascinating to see what if any meaningful steps are taken to address it, as particularly in England, I think The Big Strong Center Forward (or CB) archetype is particularly admired so culturally I could see significant resistance and the “game is gone” mob to protest.
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# ? Aug 16, 2021 01:16 |
Gigi Galli posted:I honestly wonder if this would work to prevent the damage in question. Everyone was making GBS threads their pants about the halo device in F1 before it was implemented and now nobody says anything. It has saved lives, and the racing hasn’t gotten any worse (because of the device anyway). If you look at NFL stuff if anything adding pads encourages people to go in harder. Slightly different here but people might be less cautious during corners etc.
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# ? Aug 16, 2021 08:20 |
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Famethrowa posted:I also am really struggling to imagine football without nod-ons. What would a 50-50 look like? That's one of the main problems in implementing anything like this. Do defenders just have to allow goal kicks go passed them? What about free-kicks? Can the wall not jump? Does a player on the line just have to let the ball go over his head? No idea what the answer is to any of these, but any changes would fundamentally alter the game. I was listening to a podcast the other day where they were taking about how football was the only sport they could think of that uses the head and how insane that is when you take a step back.
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# ? Aug 16, 2021 09:58 |
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Mickolution posted:That's one of the main problems in implementing anything like this. Do defenders just have to allow goal kicks go passed them? What about free-kicks? Can the wall not jump? Does a player on the line just have to let the ball go over his head? No idea what the answer is to any of these, but any changes would fundamentally alter the game. I think all those things would lead to adjustments in play rather than fundamental changes. You'd probably see defensive lines a yard or two farther back so that those long goal kicks land on defenders' chests instead of heads, for example, and against teams that don't adapt to this well you might see more goals scored by lobbing the ball past the defensive line. But since the rules would be the same for both teams, they could both benefit or suffer from the change equally. As sex ghost said, it would probably be deeply weird for the first season or two as players who spent their whole careers heading the ball away failed to adapt, but over time they would be replaced by players for whom controlling a goal kick with their chest or foot was as natural as heading it away is for defenders today. I think the current efforts to make changes at youth levels first before they trickle up to the professional game is part of this, that you start training young players in new ways first so that they're used to them when you change the rules at high levels a few years later. sticksy posted:iirc they found the effects of CTE in NFL players was not so much from the concussions, which obviously didn’t help, rather the thousands of times helmets/heads hit one another in mundane activities, not dissimilar to headers in training. I think this was the idea behind the change to limit headers in training. If you're doing a defensive drill, you're probably doing way more headers in that drill than you do in an actual 90-minute game of football, and that's much more of the repetitive low-impact trauma that causes serious long-term damage.
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# ? Aug 16, 2021 15:27 |
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vyelkin posted:I think all those things would lead to adjustments in play rather than fundamental changes. You'd probably see defensive lines a yard or two farther back so that those long goal kicks land on defenders' chests instead of heads, for example, and against teams that don't adapt to this well you might see more goals scored by lobbing the ball past the defensive line. But since the rules would be the same for both teams, they could both benefit or suffer from the change equally. As sex ghost said, it would probably be deeply weird for the first season or two as players who spent their whole careers heading the ball away failed to adapt, but over time they would be replaced by players for whom controlling a goal kick with their chest or foot was as natural as heading it away is for defenders today. I don't know about that. What you're describing is like when the backpass rule came in. That was a minor adjustment that players got used to very quickly and didn't fundamentally change much. With headers though, you're basically saying that if the ball goes over a certain height, defenders can't stop it. I don't know what the answer is, but I would be very surprised if we saw any reduction in the amount of headers.
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# ? Aug 16, 2021 15:36 |
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The attacker can't control it or interact with it with their head either, though. I read the article in the OP and while watching Villa and Watford on Saturday it was striking how much heading was pretty low value "two guys go up together" situations in the middle of the pitch. It would be interesting to see the no heading outside the box trialed in a lower league.
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# ? Aug 16, 2021 16:32 |
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:The attacker can't control it or interact with it with their head either, though. the attacker has the ball travelling in the direction they want though. they can run onto the ball in the direction of the goal a lot easier if the defender can't just head it clear instead
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# ? Aug 16, 2021 22:02 |
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What happens if the ball is played from the opposition right back in towards your penalty area, and the attacker takes a deft touch to control it after it goes over your head, but as you try to regain balance you slip on the surface and have to drag yourself towards your goal and your only chance of stopping a one on one is to head the ball? Could you head it then?
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# ? Aug 16, 2021 22:48 |
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Total Meatlove posted:What happens if the ball is played from the opposition right back in towards your penalty area, and the attacker takes a deft touch to control it after it goes over your head, but as you try to regain balance you slip on the surface and have to drag yourself towards your goal and your only chance of stopping a one on one is to head the ball?
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# ? Aug 16, 2021 23:10 |
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I could see a rule similar to that of offside where it depended on the "phase of play" to determine whether or not it was permitted and for it to inevitably be plagued by all of the same stupidity and arguing as VAR has.
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# ? Aug 17, 2021 03:53 |
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Jose posted:the attacker has the ball travelling in the direction they want though. they can run onto the ball in the direction of the goal a lot easier if the defender can't just head it clear instead true, it would definitely advantage the attacker but that would be fun and good maybe
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# ? Aug 17, 2021 13:10 |
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Mickolution posted:With headers though, you're basically saying that if the ball goes over a certain height, defenders can't stop it. I mean, isn't this already the case? The suggested change would just lower the bar a bit
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# ? Aug 18, 2021 06:20 |
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Replace headers with Higuita style scorpion kicks
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# ? Aug 20, 2021 10:27 |
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Every midfield aerial 50/50 to be contested via bicycle kicks
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# ? Aug 22, 2021 00:35 |
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sebzilla posted:Every midfield aerial 50/50 to be contested via bicycle kicks Quagliarella extends his career for 10 more years then. I’m in.
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# ? Aug 22, 2021 02:04 |
I still find it funny that near 7ft Peter Crouch was better at overhead kicks than he was at heading
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# ? Aug 22, 2021 10:48 |
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I remember once when I was a teenager we did header practice for a whole training session and every single one of us were complaining about headaches...mine lasted for probably a day. Our coaches were all like IT IS PERFECTLY SAFE YOU PUSSIES. anyway They should just play a bunch of top-level friendlies with no headers and no other rule changes and see what happens. Then we'd at least some data to work off of. I'm inclined to think that banning headers outside the area is a good compromise plus it would put very good technical players at more of a premium which is probably a good thing for the entertainment value of the sport. Suddenly the smaller and more skilled center half that can reliably bring a long goal kick down with his chest and then make a good pass is the most sought after player type in the game. sticksy posted:iirc they found the effects of CTE in NFL players was not so much from the concussions, which obviously didn’t help, rather the thousands of times helmets/heads hit one another in mundane activities, not dissimilar to headers in training. Its both, really. You can think of the large numbers of lower force impacts as small concussions with the same effects. The big change in the science is recognizing that they are ALL bad. The "good news" as it were is it looks like rotational impacts (ie, a boxer/MMA fighter getting punched such that their head rotates rapidly) are far worse than linear impacts (ie, a header), and soccer is virtually devoid of regular rotational impacts now that Joey Barton and Vinnie Jones retired. The bad news is head protection really doesn't do a great deal to mitigate the problem. Helmets are good for preventing lacerations or impact injuries to the skull, but they don't do a whole lot to slow down the acceleration of the brain INSIDE the skull, which is the mechanism that does most of the damage. American football helmets have gotten better thanks to gobs of money and research but no helmet can prevent the G forces acting on the brain...unless it is like a giant air filled sac or something that gives the head a huge amount of room to slow down gradually. bewbies fucked around with this message at 14:04 on Aug 22, 2021 |
# ? Aug 22, 2021 13:53 |
bewbies posted:I remember once when I was a teenager we did header practice for a whole training session and every single one of us were complaining about headaches...mine lasted for probably a day. Our coaches were all like IT IS PERFECTLY SAFE YOU PUSSIES. anyway The big issue with NFL helmets is that it encourages people to lead with their heads as they think they are protected.
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# ? Aug 22, 2021 14:29 |
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Gigi Galli posted:That’s an interesting article and a good idea for a thread. What they fail to really address (and it’s probably because the data doesn’t exist) is if those headers outside the box are what’s majorly contributing to these long term injuries. If it's the same study linked in this article (same research lead, at least!) they did attempt to sort the causes: I assume 'objects' are the ball and the goalposts (excluding the refs). But it's only a single study, so I agree more would be good.
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# ? Aug 22, 2021 20:08 |
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I reckon most top level players will die of heart attacks & strokes from years of cocaine & PEDs before dementia ever sets in
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# ? Aug 25, 2021 12:02 |
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Nuno's answered the question of what we're going to do about headersquote:"That’s why we have training sessions without nobody seeing us,” Nuno said. “I’m concerned with the situation of dementia and what heading the ball can cause. It’s a big concern for us but it’s part of the game. Honestly, I will not lie to you. I don’t count how many times our players head the ball. Maybe I will get myself in trouble for this. But football is jumping, heading. It’s part of the game.” Shameful lack of care for player safety. Bielsa would be there with separate header counters for each player
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# ? Sep 25, 2021 09:55 |
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the sex ghost posted:Nuno's answered the question of what we're going to do about headers Bielsa could probably tell Nuno how many headers each Spurs player did in training.
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# ? Sep 25, 2021 15:26 |
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Hoping for more players trying to shoulder slam the ball like Big John Carew.Gigi Galli posted:That’s an interesting article and a good idea for a thread. What they fail to really address (and it’s probably because the data doesn’t exist) is if those headers outside the box are what’s majorly contributing to these long term injuries. It seems like me and you recycling our beer cans when the coal electricity plant 50 miles away is spewing poo poo in to the air 24 hours a day convinced we are helping. It does matter but are the gains going to be that big? I guess if even one person doesn’t get a lifelong brain injury it’s a success but there will have to be more done. Old post but I don't think it's about what is the biggest contributor but decreasing anything that contributes. The affects of a header and the subsequent development of CTE are similar in long term development to having high cholesterol and eventually developing coronary artery disease. It's about limiting a bunch of small events over time rather than the rate big crash that happens to an individual player maybe once or twice a season.
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# ? Sep 26, 2021 18:56 |
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A new NY Times article about CTE and headers. An MLS footballer who died in 2020 likely had football-induced CTE. I didn’t know MLS had introduced “concussion substitutes.” It kinda makes sense. There’s so much pressure on players to stay on the pitch when there are no subs left. But that’s obviously not enough if you’re really looking to tackle CTE in football. quote:A high school and college all-American who played four seasons in M.L.S., Vermillion had spent the last decade of his life withdrawing from his family as he struggled with substance abuse and progressively erratic behavior.
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# ? Jun 28, 2022 17:06 |
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Only allowed in the 18yd boxes while they figure out how to best eliminate them there. I know this isn’t a tough guy or traditionalist position but who cares, we’ve been playing without the other two upper body appendages for years.
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# ? Jun 28, 2022 17:28 |
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A Buffer Gay Dude posted:Only allowed in the 18yd boxes while they figure out how to best eliminate them there. The problem with this is that you now have to coach out heading entirely which means that something like this really couldn't even go into effect for 15-20 years when the players who are currently 16 and breaking into first teams are retired and the next generations of players aren't even taught how to head the ball. Comparing heading to handball isn't really a good argument. Handling the ball is and has been against the laws of football since 1906. No one comes into football thinking they can pick up the ball and throw it into the goal while nearly everyone is aware that heading the ball is a very effective way to score goals. That and no one is really sure what constitutes a handball these days so what is and isn't a header when and if that argument comes up?
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# ? Jun 28, 2022 19:57 |
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Shrapnig posted:The problem with this is that you now have to coach out heading entirely which means that something like this really couldn't even go into effect for 15-20 years when the players who are currently 16 and breaking into first teams are retired and the next generations of players aren't even taught how to head the ball. Counterpoint: it’s pretty easy to just not head the dang ball outside the box. And in the box, yeah that’s the whole point of a phase in. It will probably take a while because of the tactical effects on both sides of the ball and having to train it out. But you gotta start somewhere. I know fifa and other governing bodies are loathe to have different rules for different levels but it seems to me that starting at the lower age groups first would be useful.
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# ? Jun 29, 2022 11:56 |
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Looking forward to the VAR calls to determine whether or not a header was inside the box or not.
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# ? Jun 29, 2022 17:26 |
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# ? May 4, 2024 07:07 |
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ozmunkeh posted:Looking forward to the VAR calls to determine whether or not a header was inside the box or not. Honestly I don’t see that being an issue. The box’s line is imho a good divider between the two broad categories of headers (knocking around possession types vs attacking/clearing in the box types) but neither set really happens anywhere close to the line with any frequency. A rule could be very generously written to err on the side of not making a call, and be fine. I’m sure there will be unintended and unforeseen consequences of any “no header” rule but I also don’t think they’d necessarily be BAD consequences.
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# ? Jun 29, 2022 23:41 |