Metroid Dread Metroid Thread

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Simply Simon: Nov 6, 2010; 📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔

Fedule posted:

At the very least they should have put something in the sunken frigate really early on that gates on the Gravity Suit. It's hosed up they let you go so far in before blocking you and then you have to climb the whole way back out, without the Gravity Suit. Absolutely psychotic game design.

I actually love it lol getting back out felt so loving good, it's like going down the Catacombs in Dark Souls, resting in the Tomb and going "oh

oh no"

Also hi I've read like two thirds of this thread after beating Dread, then forgot about it, then new posts because of the Remaster happened, I bought that, and finished reading the thread. Metroid is good

# ¿ Feb 15, 2023 17:02

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# ¿ May 16, 2024 02:26

Simply Simon: Nov 6, 2010; 📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔

Super Metroid came out 3 years before SotN, it's clear that the latter was influenced by the former. However, I'd argue that SotN was equally as influential, with the much snappier movement defining expectations of how much action such a title should have, and a much more expanded item/build system being the basis for a lot of other games in the combined genre.

# ¿ Feb 22, 2023 23:15

Simply Simon: Nov 6, 2010; 📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔

Shout-outs to the Quadraxis scan that's "his head again, but stunned this time"

# ¿ Feb 23, 2023 17:05

Simply Simon: Nov 6, 2010; 📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔

mastajake posted:

Would have been fixed by a boss rush mode.

"Why is there an Ice Shriekbat and Aqua Drone teamup round"

# ¿ Feb 23, 2023 19:38

Simply Simon: Nov 6, 2010; 📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔

Blackbelt Bobman posted:

Research scans were stuff like health/missile/power bomb pickups, morph ball bomb slots, spinners (for use with boost ball), missile door barriers, the barriers that appear on doors to lock you in until you kill all the enemies, stalactites that you can knock down. Those are all I can think of off the top of my head so yeah they were kind of weird and random. But you didn’t need to scan any upgrades thankfully.

A devious one is map stations because you can only scan them unused and eventually you run out of map stations

You also didn't list spider ball tracks and grapple points, both only valid entries after you get the relevant items (not missable tho)

# ¿ Feb 24, 2023 10:31

Simply Simon: Nov 6, 2010; 📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔

Yeah, Fusion is an exceptional game, and I think that is not despite its linearity, but because it embraces and utilizes it. It starts out seemingly on rails, but very soon asks you to find your own solution to problems as the sleek plan that the federation/the game designers seemingly laid out for you starts to go wrong.

Despite of how little you can break out of the intended sequence, I might have gotten lost or stuck for a while more in Fusion than any other Metroid. Of course, knowing now that you (structure spoiler) absolutely do have to find the progression in your current sector and there's no hidden path in some other one, forcing you to backtrack makes it much more constrained and "obvious" what you have to do, but on a first playthrough without people on the internet whining about ~linearity~ for 20 years, you don't know that!

# ¿ Mar 3, 2023 09:21

Simply Simon: Nov 6, 2010; 📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔

Finally got around to sorting and posting some impressions

First, really liked the ending here:

https://twitter.com/SimonSimplex/status/1631678202312798209?t=72pELtyBx_CSf_h3h0kvdg&s=19

Secondly, this is proper sequencing:

https://twitter.com/SimonSimplex/status/1631678579124879362?t=PUOObBwGbVJtY3_h9_Yuuw&s=19

Finally:

https://twitter.com/SimonSimplex/status/1631678752756482048?t=a1EBjvbmC7ZUljRxtfFDIw&s=19

# ¿ Mar 3, 2023 16:40

Simply Simon: Nov 6, 2010; 📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔

ChaseSP posted:

Tbh power bomb expansions always feel way more disappointing than missiles or etanks just from barely using them in the first place.

I was happy about every single one of them because fighting splitting metroids in the crater sucks so much rear end and I was bad at Metroid Prime & the platforming so powerbombs were a godsend

not so much in the 2D ones beyond "oh I'll jst check the whole room for destructable blocks, hyuck"

But yeah a big issue in every Metroid is that the missile upgrade to get you from 240/255 to 245/255 is not the most exciting reward and some games hide that better (e.g. by having less stuff in total to collect) or make it feel more worthwhile (Prime with the buster combos and Dread with the actually good storm missiles for sure), while others struggle hard to make them relevant.

Sadly enough, Zero Mission both fails at making upgrades relevant late and makes them impossible to collect earlier, so the final collection loop just feels really bad!!

This is btw something where the Castlevania side of things is usually better: collecting stuff with late-game upgrades in early-game areas feels perfectly fine in e.g. Dawn of Sorrow because
- you could always get another soul drop that you don't have yet or makes one you use better, same for other drops
- the upgrades are more varied due to the flexible equipment system
- you level up as you kill your way through the enemies
- there's often a secret final boss or a superboss that makes leveling up relevant
- money drops from candles if you have full MP, you don't need to spend MP to kill early-game enemies, so you get a bunch of cash on the way for free

Not to say that Metroid necessarily is worse, it's just easier for CV games to avoid that problem!

EDIT: vvvvvv :hfive:

# ¿ Mar 4, 2023 17:40

Simply Simon: Nov 6, 2010; 📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔

Conversation's getting a little circular, may I just add tho: why would I ever watch an attract mode of any game? I've already bought it, there's no need for attraction.

# ¿ Mar 4, 2023 17:58

Simply Simon: Nov 6, 2010; 📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔

Bleck posted:

That's fair, but I also don't think that your earlier feelings of "it's too designed" are really compatible with "they should design the whole game so there's a really good speedrun route."

I also feel this way, but I personally think this is less a problem with the placement of the Power Bombs and more of an indictment of the concept of Power Bombs in the first place - I don't think I'd mind going back and getting new more items if the final upgrade that let me do so was something a little more fun than "press the button and the special block goes away."

If the final upgrade were something more active and less tedious, I don't think the backtracking would ring out as quite so boring. For me, at least.

Power Bombs are just not a good final upgrade. They come actually super early in Super, every time I replay it I'm surprised a little - before Grapple! - and because the next step is actually a kind of random room quite a ways off, you have a lot of time to play around with them immediately and of course for the whole rest of the game. Prime puts them directly before grapple as well, as well as requiring them for x-ray, and there's a lot of backtracking and optional uses in between those spots. Prime 2 has them relatively late, and oh! they're less interesting. Them being at the very end in ZM - a necessity due to the remake nature, of course - makes them very, very awkward.

Screw Attack, notably, is a much better final upgrade because it makes backtracking through enemy-filled rooms where fighting is just a chore suddenly a breeze and it's just fun to go through them like a buzzsaw, and it's honestly also brilliant in Fusion that it opens up the map all of a sudden, giving it tons of uses apart from the combat thing and an awkwardly screw attack block gated upgrade here or there!

# ¿ Mar 4, 2023 18:14

Simply Simon: Nov 6, 2010; 📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔

In other news, this fight used to give me sooo much trouble, but now? Well

https://twitter.com/SimonSimplex/status/1632120307577409537?t=DWW32QMfeQIj6UcIM1wqaw&s=19

# ¿ Mar 4, 2023 22:05

Simply Simon: Nov 6, 2010; 📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔

scary ghost dog posted:

nice to see someone else using pointer controls

They are so good

# ¿ Mar 5, 2023 00:18

Simply Simon: Nov 6, 2010; 📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔

That final grapple swing using the flying creature in lower phazon mines still sucks absolutely rear end, no matter how much better at videogames I am now

# ¿ Mar 5, 2023 12:21

Simply Simon: Nov 6, 2010; 📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔

https://twitter.com/SimonSimplex/status/1632490048326369280?t=arBWmCA_iEBmgkg5IJQ0yA&s=19

# ¿ Mar 6, 2023 00:56

Simply Simon: Nov 6, 2010; 📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔

Blackbelt Bobman posted:

I think it�s scan says something about its belly being vulnerable to bombs. It can be a tough boss for that point in the game, for sure.

When you come back later it�s a regular enemy, but you can torch it with the Plasma Beam

I used to have big issues with it when I first (and second...) played because I did read the "use bombs" thing but that's a good way to get frozen into a ball, get stomped on, etc...

It took me until this playthrough to read the "vulnerable when it's doing the ice breath" line and just put missiles into its mouth until it died rather quickly. whoops

Anyway I noticed some stuff in the gallery...

https://twitter.com/SimonSimplex/status/1632489100463976448?s=20

this is really cool:

https://twitter.com/SimonSimplex/status/1632489424633364480?s=20

# ¿ Mar 6, 2023 10:56

Simply Simon: Nov 6, 2010; 📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔

3's motion controls never really bothered me, but the giant slogs through the sky station world which should be fun, and is, once, did. Also the awful, AWFUL first big boss. I absolutely think MP3 has enough flaws to solidly put it in the bottom.

In fact, I like 2 so much that I squarely put it at the top! Higher highs and lower lows. Like with Dark Souls 2 :haw:

# ¿ Mar 6, 2023 18:10

Simply Simon: Nov 6, 2010; 📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔

Bleck posted:

I used the Light and Dark beams whenever I wanted, because I knew the game gives you ammo pickups so that you can keep using them.

Aren't you a smart one

I didn't use them much in my first playthrough - I really feel in love with the Super Missile there - but once I realized that you'll get plenty of ammo with the box-destroying technique, the game just got even better! Hell, I've started using Annihilator and turns out it's actually much better than I gave it credit for. On my first playthrough, I was very disappointed however that it simply is not nearly as good of a moment as getting the Plasma Beam is.

# ¿ Mar 6, 2023 18:19

Simply Simon: Nov 6, 2010; 📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔

Waffle! posted:

I beat Prime on GameCube, and not once do I remember using the flame thrower. I thought they just added in a new weapon or something...

One has to keep in mind regarding this clip that just using a charged Plasma shot instantly kills the pirates, so Flamethrower is markedly slower at killing them as well as having much less range.

Compare it also to the Wavebuster which is p good at killing Wave Beam pirates, which often come in pairs, locking one down as you dodge the other, then jumping to the second immediately; Flamethrower doesn't lock down poo poo when facing Plasma Beam pirates, and they take markedly longer to die using it than if you just fired three charged shots.

# ¿ Mar 6, 2023 19:41

Simply Simon: Nov 6, 2010; 📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔

Xenomrph posted:

I beat Meta Ridley, that fight was a slog, especially the second half when he�s on the ground.

I defeated the first form of Metroid Prime, only to get taken out by the second.

The most irritating part is now I have to go through the platforming section with the infinitely respawning fission metroids, easily the most annoying enemy in the game.

this is the sole reason to have collected powerbomb upgrades

# ¿ Mar 12, 2023 01:07

Simply Simon: Nov 6, 2010; 📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔

Blackbelt Bobman posted:

I can remember where two of them are off the top of my head, but I think there’s only 4 total.

There’s one in the lava room with the grapple points if you power bomb the far wall. Another is under the statue you got the Warrior Artifact from in Magmoor Caverns, power bomb it.

Melt an ice sheet in Phendrana

# ¿ Mar 12, 2023 01:26

Simply Simon: Nov 6, 2010; 📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔

Prime 2 rules, it does have its issues but I think its highs are higher than any other Prime's. It's also very bold with how hostile it makes the dark world, and I admire that in a game.

# ¿ Mar 13, 2023 14:17

Simply Simon: Nov 6, 2010; 📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔

Natural 20 posted:

I'd really really be interested in Prime 2 with remaster controls. I never got round to Trilogy on my Wii U and pointer controls just make everything so much smoother.

I feel like that will really help how incredibly slow the game feels when you're moving from light point to light point at what feels like an absolutely glacial pace.

I played the hell out of Prime 2 on Wii and it really, really does. Being able to just flick your wrist a bit and shoot a well-targeted shot onto the next light orb without ever stopping the platforming feels amazing. It also really helps that my first Wii playthrough was a replay, so I knew by that point that I absolutely did not have to wait in every light zone to let my health sloooowly regenerate.

# ¿ Mar 13, 2023 14:46

Simply Simon: Nov 6, 2010; 📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔

Bottomless pits are a similar principle to lava pools except you don't have to wade through hot sauce to ascend a stairwell of shame after screwing up a Grapple, so the pits win in my books

# ¿ Mar 13, 2023 19:12

Simply Simon: Nov 6, 2010; 📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔

Other M has issues that go beyond even the ones mentioned - the game simply hates the concept of the player having fun. I don't think people have even mentioned the asinine pixel hunts yet, but basic traversal is also deliberately clunky and annoying.

My go-to example for this philosophy is various long corridors connecting sections. I suspect they hide loading screens, but it's still always a slow walk down an empty tube. However, the game has a speed booster, so after you get that, it should be quicker? Wrong, because there's ridges in the floor that make Samus trip just before reaching booster speed. There's even an extra animation for her stumbling iirc.

SlothfulCobra posted:

Does Prime do the old Metroid trick of "oh some lava's just not real and you only know when you jump in"?

No. In fact, no suit ever protects you from lava, so there's also nothing hidden inside lava pools.

# ¿ Mar 14, 2023 08:50

Simply Simon: Nov 6, 2010; 📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔

mastajake posted:

I had a great time with Samus Returns. It's weaker than the previous two 2D Metroids (Fusion, Zero Mission), and it's certainly weaker than the Super competitor Dread, but bad? Come on.

Samus Returns is a lot of fun, yeah it won't set the world on fire, but I replayed it a few times and got the endings and all the things, it's perfectly serviceable. Boss fights are the best thing about it. My wife (who isn't much of a gamer) also liked it!

ExcessBLarg! posted:

I can tolerate the game for about 30 minutes every week.

I hateplayed Other M getting drunk with friends and I don't know if it was the alcohol, but we spent at least 20 minutes on one of the pixel hunting screens just losing our entire minds trying to point the remote on the thing that would magically propel the dumbass plot forward. It was magical. Generally I recommend playing the game like that btw

# ¿ Mar 14, 2023 14:42

Simply Simon: Nov 6, 2010; 📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔

Omnomnomnivore posted:

I 100%'ed Other M so I must not have minded actually playing it that much, and most of my hate was for the story and cutscenes. I have no desire to ever play it again, though.

I 100%'d it because I have a sick love for terrible games (see also: doing a 100% Let's Play for Sonic 06), and the gameplay isn't that bad, I don't even mind the point to shoot missiles that much, you can have a little fun blasting stuff, some of the secrets are neat to find, there's a little bit of a good game in there. However, even that gets buried under mountains of minorly bad design decisions, like the aforementioned speed bumps that make backtracking just a tiny bit more frustrating, enemies that are actually quite annoying to fight with the slow-rear end missile controls, the general sense of pointlessness regarding upgrades in general because your dodge is so strong and you can always refill missiles so why even get more health/ammo, and so on.

Hell, the superboss is cool and a pretty fun fight. The game could be good despite the imposed control limitations. It's just not at all on top of that.

# ¿ Mar 16, 2023 17:38

Simply Simon: Nov 6, 2010; 📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔

Yakuza, the plant boss (Nettori? Maybe?) and Nightmare before were extreme roadblocks for me as a kid. Took me forever to clear them. The lack of savepoints before the first two really didn't help to get me motivated for more attempts...

Hot Stunt posted:

Oh yeah that one hosed me up the first time. Hiding in morphball in the corners so it couldn't grab me worked pretty well second try. The boss that gave me the most trouble was the one where you are shooting at the chozo statue while plants are shooting spores at you. Could never get out of the plants when I fell in.

big same, that is super rude. I used to do a careful rhythm of powerbomb to clear the spores, then shoot a single charged shot, powerbomb again...why no missiles? Well, they're limited quantity ofc but also how could they possibly be better than a charged laserbeam? Pew pew

# ¿ Mar 19, 2023 13:31

Simply Simon: Nov 6, 2010; 📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔

Bismack Billabongo posted:

Taking my time with Prime Remastered. Just got the spider ball. Did they not add the ability to boost ball off a spider track until Echoes? Or is it only in certain spots. I can’t remember

It's not in Prime 1, purely an Echoes invention (and it rules, I looove Echoes' ball puzzles).

I did also try it in the Remaster tho

# ¿ Mar 20, 2023 08:16

Simply Simon: Nov 6, 2010; 📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔

CuddleCryptid posted:

I can't remember if in the OG game Samus would fire three shot bursts with every button press, I remember just hammering the button continuously but that might have just been to avoid the pause between bursts. If someone remembers better than me, are you able to just jump directly into the charge beam rather than having to let out the three-short first in any way? I thought you could but that might be from later games.

No, that's a new feature of the Remaster and a frankly kind of bizarre addition.

# ¿ Mar 20, 2023 15:39

Simply Simon: Nov 6, 2010; 📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔

TaurusOxford posted:

I think the logic is that it prevents the need for button mashing which isn't exactly comfortable to do on triggers.

Still should be a selectable option in the menu though.

Oh that explains a lot, I'm playing with motion controls so I'm not even using the triggers. It makes sense that they added it for those!

# ¿ Mar 20, 2023 16:38

Simply Simon: Nov 6, 2010; 📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔

Bismack Billabongo posted:

What about the Ligma Samus figures?

What's Samus?

# ¿ Apr 14, 2023 21:13

Simply Simon: Nov 6, 2010; 📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔

CuddleCryptid posted:

The armor guy from smash bros

No that's Marth

# ¿ Apr 17, 2023 22:00

Simply Simon: Nov 6, 2010; 📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔

Metroid 2 is more like Link's Awakening in that it is just a very good GB game that doesn't have to hide from the main series titles.

Castlevania The Adventure otoh has a phenomenal first stage track and otherwise nothing redeeming about it. I let's played it out of spite because I have a morbid fascination with awful games. Move faster Christopher

# ¿ Jan 2, 2024 01:05

Simply Simon: Nov 6, 2010; 📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔

Just give me 1.5 hours of Dread cutscenes where Samus only speaks Chozo, Angry and Gun

# ¿ Jan 3, 2024 09:34

Simply Simon: Nov 6, 2010; 📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔

There's a Super Metroid Romhack LP going on right now with charge speed, overall damage, number of space jumps and other upgrades, that's really cool and sounds like your ideas

# ¿ Jan 7, 2024 14:39

Simply Simon: Nov 6, 2010; 📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔

Hollow Knight rules because instead of Missile Upgrade #23468123, dicking around in the weird corners of the map lets you find sick boss fights, entirely new endings locked behind sicko platforming, and actually meaningful upgrade material that you have a plenty of reasons to need for said bosses, in an arena etc. - I have no idea what planet you're from where exploring that game isn't the bee's knees (sometimes literally).

# ¿ Jan 8, 2024 20:17

Simply Simon: Nov 6, 2010; 📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔

Yeah Hollow Knight bosses are amazing and Super Metroid ones are barely passable. They got a lot better later - Dread's bosses are amazing! - but that's definitely where HK wins for me.

I do like exploration in most Metroids generally more than in HK, but the original argument started with rewards for exploration, and the HK ones are more unique and feel individually more important than another number. Especially if exploration leads you to an entirely new area, with a boss or two as well! You rarely have full optional bosses in Metroid that give you a significant upgrade for a tough as hell fight.

# ¿ Jan 11, 2024 19:24

Simply Simon: Nov 6, 2010; 📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔

Honestly I've always hated the Grapple in Super and I was glad it wasn't in the GBA games. It's great in Dread, however, the quick select and free aim really helped.

# ¿ Jan 11, 2024 23:13

Simply Simon: Nov 6, 2010; 📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔

Corn Burst posted:

Counterpoint, you can grind E-tanks where it became a war of attrition.

Didn't really help against Yakuza (awful runback too!) and that plant fucker (Nettori?)

# ¿ Jan 12, 2024 06:53

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# ¿ May 16, 2024 02:26

Simply Simon: Nov 6, 2010; 📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔

The compass charm discussion is a fascinating example of how psychologically loaded the impression of a game mechanic can be. It is very easy to say - someone itt did, but dismissed it as not a good argument immediately! - that the compass being a charm to remove frees up a slot for if you don't need it (backtracking, boss fight, replay). That's simple positive framing, and it doesn't even presume that you don't absolutely need it when going into an area blind.

And yet, it's almost always phrased as it "taking away" a charm slot.

The game devs obviously know that the charm is highly attractive to players, so they want to make it a real choice to put it on or not. Now think about this possible scenario: when testing late in development, they realize that having your position on the map is basically mandatory for most players. So they do what is demanded by some itt and bake its effect into the map. But they balanced the game around the tradeoff between a slot taken for orientation or for combat, and don't want to have the player be too powerful. So they just cut off a starting charm slot.

In effect, for players that do consider the compass charm mandatory, nothing changes. For everybody else, they lose a slot. Nobody would ever know however unless they reveal the design process. So this entire discussion wouldn't exist, everybody would be happy, but with a factually worse solution.

This is all because some feel that it's unfair that they need this slot and others don't and so the others have an advantage. But that doesn't actually make the game worse for you! It's a single player game! It's all in your head!

# ¿ Feb 12, 2024 20:24

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