D&D Modding

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Killer robot: Sep 6, 2010; I was having the most wonderful dream. I think you were in it!; Pillbug

I think part of what this thread has really shown is that the people who think D&D need a dramatic reinvention seem to have an even less workable idea of what it should be than anyone else.
I don't even mean the transparently false "I am being silenced!" persecution complex on a forum with such a long leash for anyone who can at least bother to drag their median coherence up now and then, or the idea that criticism of the Democratic Party is forbidden just because most people don't think AOC is CIA.
More specifically, lots of posts suggesting that CSPAM gets more traffic so it should also be the model for D&D, or just to burn it all down and move everyone to CSPAM: what does that do that isn't satisfied by people who can't handle D&D just posting in CSPAM? Is discussion forbidden there or something? And if so, in what way?

Big kudos to the people who admitted they want to be able to formlessly vent more but in D&D because the "libs" who post in CSPAM don't have the decency to act owned enough. Or those who just keep letting slip that they feel D&D looks down on them or something and it gives them a sad. Their honesty helps illustrate the problem with just going free for all or letting the hatereaders run the show.

More seriously, there's definitely been a problem with ideological moderation, or really more to the point "Someone is winning an argument against me" moderation. There definitely needs to be more space between the argument and the person wielding the button, and if a wider mod pool does that than great. If there are more mods, hopefully that means they're doing less work apiece. It's not good if it means the moderation gets heavier. It more needs to be smarter, more consistent, less personal, and less prone to probing people who call out bullshit or patterns of bullshit from toxic posters than the toxic posters themselves.

A couple other posts I'd endorse:

1337JiveTurkey posted:

When it comes to what's forbidden in D&D the main things in comparison to C-SPAM are slurs, advocating political violence and genocide denial. That's what C-SPAM has fought for and like hell anyone should ever forget it.

^^^^^^And also what James Garfield just said.

Above all:

Valor posted:

Also before any admin makes any decisions about D&D they should actually read and participate in the forum for a month. This is true of any forum. You don't need to be a D&D regular or anything, but, like, stop taking people's words for what's going on (even mine!) and just read the forum. Think about how different the Flavius poo poo would've gone when instead of just closing the first QCS threads complaining about him an admin said "hm this seems to be a problem" and just read his posts for a few weeks. He would've been removed far earlier.

# ? Sep 7, 2021 02:43

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# ? May 5, 2024 07:26

Harold Fjord: Jan 3, 2004

I think the new mod should be selected based on objective qualifications.

# ? Sep 7, 2021 02:44

Jizz Festival: Oct 30, 2012; Lipstick Apathy

Make fluffdaddy admin over only D&D so his sparkling wit and good humor isn't spread too thin over the entire forums as is sadly the case right now.

# ? Sep 7, 2021 02:46

D-Pad: Jun 28, 2006

I would like to second the calls for an admin who actually reads D&D. That admin should spend a lot of time in the local/international politics threads and then also spend time in USNews. The contrast is stark and it's easy to see the type of posting that is causing the issues. I'd like to once again endorse this post 1000x:

Valor posted:

I've been reading D&D for 15 years and at this point have entirely written off the forum because right now the atmosphere is worse than probably any other time in SA, mostly due to how worthless the admin staff is.

The actual problem is that there is a group of insane brain poisoned dipshits who spend all their time hate reading D&D and screaming about how horrible the posters in D&D are. And if anyone tells them (rightfully) to shut the gently caress up, they proceed to melt down all over QCS about how they've been silenced by evil Democratic cheerleader mods. And for some reason the admins allow this to happen. If your goal as an admin staff is to help create a positive atmosphere or grow the site or whatever the gently caress, maybe do something about the posters screaming about killing other posters or trolling for probations to cry about.

It has nothing to do with politics and everything to do with being an insufferable brain poisoned terminally online idiot who needs to log the gently caress off, but because this is about politics, and not video games, for some reason its tolerated because politics are so important! Its insanely stupid and toxic and if this was any other era of SA it would've been either shut down immediately - either by admins actually issuing punishments, or by other posters being allowed to troll them into oblivion.

Its so loving boring and tedious and it sucks all the air out of the room and leaves no place for any sort of actual conversation. I don't really give two fucks if you think Biden is worse than Trump, but having that opinion and seemingly never being able to shut the gently caress up about it and how everyone is silencing you is the worst poo poo in the world. Just... shut the gently caress up. D&D was once a place where you could come to learn about foreign politics or find interesting perspectives, but, lol, no more.

This thread is actually the perfect example of this. Allowing people who are forumbanned from D&D to give suggestions on how to moderate a forum that rejected them (and who seemingly spend hours a day hatereading D&D and buying hundreds of dollars worth of avatars, which is loving pathetic) is insanely stupid. Stop assuming people are posting with good intentions, especially when you can just read their post histories and see them literally brag about trolling the forum they're deeply concerned about.

(I also want to point out how hilariously ironic it is that despite the key admin lesson of the last two years being "don't listen to extremely online morons who claim how their forum enemies are actually evil racists who silence everyone against them" the admin staff still doesn't seem capable of actually reading D&D and making opinions on the content and moderation and instead relies on second hand evidence. Instead of listening to the people crying about the mean mod who gave them their 150th 6'er, just read USNews for a week and see how moderation works.)

And finally, in the spirit of this thread and everything hosed up about this stupid sub-forum I'm quoting one of the all time great quotes in SA history:

quote:

A better analogy would be if someone walks into a championship tournament, says "GEE I THINK I MAY HAVE TRANSCENDED THE UNDERSTANDING OF SOME OF YOU GRANDMASTERS HERE, WANT TO JOIN MY NEW SCHOOL OF CHESS STRATEGY?", then loses by scholar's mate twice in the first round.

This person then refuses to leave his seat, claiming that he needs additional proof that the queen in f7 actually ontologically exists before he will admit defeat, and that the rules of the CHESS ESTABLISHMENT were unfairly biased against him by disallowing the possibility of his king being able to leapfrog pieces.

Then he pulls out an ancient shopping list from 1905 and claims that "1. Eggs" means 'The King', "2. Butter" means 'can', and "3. Milk" means 'leapfrog'. This is admissible evidence for his case because he has lived according to the dictates of this list since he was a teenager, and it has drastically improved his quality of life. When the referees tell him that this makes no loving sense, he drags them into a three hour debate over the precise meaning of the words 'makes', 'no', 'loving', and 'sense'.

When people point out that there is more than enough evidence to suggest his list is just a scrap of paper from some long-dead housewife's purse, he rather proudly points out how close-minded they are in dismissing outright the possibility that the list was in fact a secret coded message on the best way to live life, originally formulated by Atlanteans and passed down through the ages disguised as everyday documents. After all, if one starts with the presupposition that such a document exists, then it would be very fair to argue that it is indeed in the form of his shopping list.

Never mind that his previous interpretations of the list led to three convictions and time served for robbery, hate crimes, and murder. These were just unfortunate misinterpretations on his part of the list's true intentions, he says. The list itself is blameless. In fact, the Atlanteans deliberately obfuscated the true meaning of the list in this way, so that it would require multiple failed misinterpretations before one would happen across its TRUE meaning, and in doing so appreciate it all the more.

In fact, he does have some evidence to back up his claims. Why, just last week during his daily meditation on the list, he felt it telling him that something good was about to happen in his future. And yesterday, wouldn't you know it, he found a twenty dollar note on the sidewalk! Evidence of the list's prophetic powers if I ever saw one. And believe him, he has many more stories where that came from.

By now, the debate has splintered off into innumerable tangents, with the one man against literally every other player and referee present at the tournament. Finally, he graciously accepts the possibility of defeat in some of the myriad topics now being covered. OK, maybe the tallest player doesn't always get to go first. Fine, I will concede that there isn't much evidence to support my third-invisible-knight hypothesis. But that's all irrelevant. What he wants to concentrate on, and what nobody has yet been able to disprove, he adds, is the ability of the king to leapfrog over other pieces.

The argument drags on for weeks. Finally, one afternoon, the beet-faced referee exhausts his last reserves of decency and throws his arms up in frustration and despair. "YOU loving RETARD, HOW CAN YOU LAY CLAIM TO KNOWING ANYTHING ABOUT CHESS STRATEGY WHEN YOU DON'T EVEN GRASP THE MOST BASIC RULES!?" He shouts, just as a new entrant walks through the door. "I'm sorry," replies the man calmly, "I simply cannot discuss the rules of chess with such an 'official' if you insist on using such strong and uncouth language. Please retract your insults or I will be forced to plug my ears whenever you say anything from now on."

Seeing only this last exchange, the new entrant pipes up. "He's right, you know. If he did something wrong, then you as the referee have every right to tell him he is so, but it should be done with a patient and thorough explanation of the details of his error. Hurling ridicule at him solves nothing and won't change anyone's mind."

The lazy eye of the retarded List-following, King-leapfrogging man twitches almost unnoticeably, as he cranes his head towards the source of this new voice. A welcoming smile cracks, inch by beaming inch, across his face. He licks his lips. He clears his throat.

"So glad to know decent people like you still value a polite discussion. Care for a game?"

# ? Sep 7, 2021 03:08

Terminal autist: May 17, 2018; by vyelkin

A lot of people seem to be coming at this as a c-spam vs DnD issue which is just not the case, this is explicitly succ zone against USPOL. Again disingenuous framing when people say the politics forums generate more reports than the rest of the forums but when its just actually these 2 threads. Its also strange to claim a lot of people hate read DnD when we know that certain posters max out their daily reports on the succ zone and I can guarantee you its not any one who posts in the thread doing the reporting.

All of the people asking for a DnD admin know that no amount of modding can fix the fact that DnD is the most toxic forum on this site by a mile and the posters want it that way, they want an admin to punish their posting enemies nothing more. Its just continual escalation and gas lighting from Ralph and the regulars, look at the perfect circle venn diagram of people who want the_steve demodded and see no problem with any of ralphs probes.

Im regards to the moderation its horrible and as many have mentioned ralph is a horrible mod but thats what makes him perfect for the version of DnD that the regulars want. I think fool of sound is a solid mod and would actually make a good admin fwiw but they seem to good for this place in its current iteration. Going to echo my previous endorsement of making how r you a mod not because hes a good poster but the complete opposite and would be a perfect mod for DnD.

# ? Sep 7, 2021 03:45

the_steve: Nov 9, 2005; We're always hiring!

One of the larger issues I've noticed is that there are a number of posters who very deliberately stick to the "I'm not touching you :smuggo:

" school of posting.

They will carefully poke and prod and needle their posting enemies in an effort to provoke them, but they'll make sure to stay just on the right side of not outright breaking a rule or saying something straight up probe-worthy, and count on there not being an IK or Real Mod around (since hey, some of us have lives away from the computer) to read their sequence of posts and notice the pattern, or catch it hours later when a probe would be moot or otherwise not worth the effort since it's a stale post by that point.
And then of course if they do get dinged because a mod was around to catch them in the middle of their poo poo, then they cry foul about how they weren't doing anything wrong and the mods are just out to get them.

There's something of a Catch-22 here, because in theory, more mods on hand would increase the odds of catching these shitposts and putting a swifter end to them, but you also have to deal with the fact that no mod is ever going to be perfectly objective, no matter how carefully you choose one, and more mods will just lead to more "Why was this probed!? :cry:

" complaints.

# ? Sep 7, 2021 03:48

captainblastum: Dec 1, 2004

the_steve posted:

One of the larger issues I've noticed is that there are a number of posters who very deliberately stick to the "I'm not touching you " school of posting.

They will carefully poke and prod and needle their posting enemies in an effort to provoke them, but they'll make sure to stay just on the right side of not outright breaking a rule or saying something straight up probe-worthy, and count on there not being an IK or Real Mod around (since hey, some of us have lives away from the computer) to read their sequence of posts and notice the pattern, or catch it hours later when a probe would be moot or otherwise not worth the effort since it's a stale post by that point.
And then of course if they do get dinged because a mod was around to catch them in the middle of their poo poo, then they cry foul about how they weren't doing anything wrong and the mods are just out to get them.

There's something of a Catch-22 here, because in theory, more mods on hand would increase the odds of catching these shitposts and putting a swifter end to them, but you also have to deal with the fact that no mod is ever going to be perfectly objective, no matter how carefully you choose one, and more mods will just lead to more "Why was this probed!? " complaints.

Physician, heal thyself.

# ? Sep 7, 2021 03:53

Nix Panicus: Feb 25, 2007

Main Paineframe posted:

This whole "DEMOCRAT PARTY" stuff is utterly asinine on both sides.

And yet the mod team has, several times, gone out of their way to enforce dumb word filters over things that would have died out on their own anyways. That kind of moderator interaction is actively negative for everyone involved, and is a pretty good example of the mods trying to curate the discussion to match their world views instead of just letting discussion flow and only stepping in to thump bad posters. Who even cares if 'democrat' is a secret republican shibboleth from decades ago. Is being a secret republican disallowed in D&D? And yet it became an extremely silly mod crusade for like two months. Why?

Discendo Vox posted:

The largest issue facing D&D is that the the political subforums, and to a degree the forums as a whole, lack adequately enforced, consistent moderation. This is principally due to a lack of admin support for stronger punishments, which has resulted in a level of harassment and subversion of moderation that makes the role profoundly unappealing. That so many users are declining the role, that the role has such a poor reputation, should be telling. That so many forumbanned users are suddenly appearing, making an abrupt change of tone, and suggesting their friends, should also be telling. Their underlying goals are to make moderation impossible or to take control of moderation, so that they are free to further abuse other users.Very few of the nominations that have been made in this thread were made with an eye toward improving moderation.

I can't suggest names for moderators under these circumstances because it would just paint a target on their backs. As long as moderation is viewed as thankless and futile, as long as a culture of abuse is tolerated, the situation will not improve. You need to talk to the current moderators about why they are unable to get people to mod the forum, and what changes in support they need from you so that the act of moderation is no longer a miserable, emotionally draining one. You're going to have to account for the fact that the current moderation team seem to have already internalized this abuse as well.

I feel Discendo represents a large contingent of D&D posters in urging for more iron fisted moderation, and viewing any community pushback on moderation as an attempt to take control and invoke mob rule against the good posters. You see this sentiment in most of the QCS threads about CSPAM/D&D moderation, and certainly in the old USPOL discord channel for complaining, where Discendo was an active member.

Valor posted:

I think someone edited a previous post, but I"m going to use my last post to reply to something that brought up constantly, the idea that there is an evil cabal of D&D posters who are maxing out their reports every day and are constantly PMing Jeff in Discord. Where did this come from?

Yeah, in case that was missed there absolutely was an offsite for coordinating complaints against posters and mods until it was shut down due to toxicity; they targeted Majorian and anyone else they felt was too sympathetic to the rabble. They want an authoritarian figure to moderate the debate club and award points for prolix arguments using approved sources.

Is that a thing that could exist? I guess? Is that a thing anyone wants to exist on SA, outside of Discendo and people like them? Thats the question the admins need to answer, because its at the heart of this whole problem. The disconnect seems to be between those who want a more formal debate club experience, and those who want to talk about current events but think CSPAM is too extreme for them. Which, you know, I get that CSPAM is too fast and too FYAD-lite for many.

I saw a suggestion earlier for a subforum of D&D that really was the formal debate forum. They even had a kickass name for it, AD&D 2E. Do that.

Jizz Festival posted:

Make fluffdaddy admin over only D&D so his sparkling wit and good humor isn't spread too thin over the entire forums as is sadly the case right now.

Seconding this too. Fluffdaddy is the best fit for D&D admin

Nix Panicus fucked around with this message at 04:01 on Sep 7, 2021

# ? Sep 7, 2021 03:57

Solkanar512: Dec 28, 2006; by the sex ghost

If you can�t stop yourself from endlessly complaining about the people who post in D&D, you shouldn�t be a mod here.

If you can�t stop yourself from constantly being a raging rear end in a top hat to everyone else, if you cannot stop yourself from believing the worst in everyone else you see, you shouldn�t be posting here.

If you want to fix things, find an admin who will actually back up the mods and actually read things around here.

# ? Sep 7, 2021 03:59

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# ? May 5, 2024 07:26

Athanatos: Jun 7, 2006; Est. 1967

Thanks for everyone's input.

I'm going to be slowly going through PMs and responding them. Might take me a while but I will get to yours.

Again, I understand that adding more mods is not the solution to every issue in forums. I do think lots of eyes and opinions on problems make better choices. The more mods who are there to discuss things, the more opinions can be brought forth and better decisions made. This is also a reason I want to get away from IKs and just add mods. So my hope here, is I add some of the names you've mentioned (who have not already turned it down), the new group runs a feedback thread, and takes what they learn from that to mod the way the community who contributes to D&D can live with.

Not everyone is going to be happy and I'm sorry there are no unicorn solutions to making every forum exactly what every person wants it to be. That's just the way the world works. I say this a lot, and know it's loving stupid, but seriously "do things you enjoy." Don't waste your time on bullshit you don't like reading. Value your own time.

Like I said earlier in the thread, I'll go through the names here, see who are seraph alts, see who has declined already in here or PMs, see who has been constructive and contribute to making D&D better instead of just making it worse, and then reach out and see if they are up for it.

Maybe I blow it, it happens. I'll try and fix it if I do, or find someone else who is willing to try. Like some of you said we don't have a "politics" admin. That aint me and I'll never be that person who enjoys reading those things (going back to the 'do things you enjoy'), so I'll do my best reading the words ya'll threw at me and go from there. That might change in the future, but for now you get my dumbass.

Also, don't forget to contribute to the D&D Feedback thread when that goes up. The mods did read this, and I shared some PM suggestions about D&D (names retracted) with them already. It makes a difference in how things are done.

Have a good rest of your day, go do something you enjoy if you have time, checkout Pathfinder - Wrath of the Righteous if you like those types of games, and don't forget to love each other.

# ? Sep 7, 2021 17:25

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