|
Raenir Salazar posted:The CIA thing is interesting because the best places to discuss topics like that currently in practice tend not to be D&D or CSPAM, like LatwPiat's recent effort post in TFR is the kind of post that's not really possible or all that welcome by a vocal minority of posters in D&D, but in a completely different subforum these posts get made by passionate interested people and actual discussion that's really interesting can actually happen. Hm? Nothing about that post looks like it wouldn't be welcome in D&D. CSPAM wouldn't give a poo poo because nobody who regularly posts in CSPAM is going to bother to effortpost on the validity of a very specific book about a very specific topic when the takehome is "the CIA didn't do a horrible thing," but there have been a good number of history effortposts in both forums.
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2021 21:22
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 27, 2024 20:22 |
|
|
I thought my point of "D&D will never be a calm debate space due to the innate hostility between leftists and liberals" was going to be harder to prove, but then we had liberals falling over themselves to defend the legitimacy of an organization which kills leftists. We even had one poster concoct a scenario to get mad about where he imagined that I would say "gently caress joe biden for not dismantling it yesterday". The prosecution rests.
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2021 21:23
|
|
|
Bishyaler posted:I thought my point of "D&D will never be a calm debate space due to the innate hostility between leftists and liberals" was going to be harder to prove, but then we had liberals falling over themselves to defend the legitimacy of an organization which kills leftists. We even had one poster concoct a scenario to get mad about where he imagined that I would say "gently caress joe biden for not dismantling it yesterday". who is saying "the CIA is good"???? jesus we can't even have a pedantic discussion about word definition without someone shouting THIS MEANS YOU SUPPORT MURDERERS OF LEFTISTS
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2021 21:30
|
|
|
Main Paineframe posted:who is saying "the CIA is good"???? jesus The poster you're quoting was banned from D&D after this absolutely psycho post: Bishyaler posted:I'm starting to understand why leftist revolutions shot so many people. Half those D&D posters would be against a wall before they finished their first smug diatribe The prosecution rests.
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2021 21:33
|
|
|
Bishyaler posted:I thought my point of "D&D will never be a calm debate space due to the innate hostility between leftists and liberals" was going to be harder to prove, but then we had liberals falling over themselves to defend the legitimacy of an organization which kills leftists. We even had one poster concoct a scenario to get mad about where he imagined that I would say "gently caress joe biden for not dismantling it yesterday". Remember, the conversation wasn't only about whether the CIA performs intelligence activities in addition to its crimes (which no one disputed.) It also involved claims that crimes by non-CIA intelligence agencies don't count because reasons.
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2021 21:33
|
|
|
Bishyaler posted:I thought my point of "D&D will never be a calm debate space due to the innate hostility between leftists and liberals" was going to be harder to prove, but then we had liberals falling over themselves to defend the legitimacy of an organization which kills leftists. We even had one poster concoct a scenario to get mad about where he imagined that I would say "gently caress joe biden for not dismantling it yesterday". This is not an argument anyone made and a perfect example about how someone tries their best to warp a conversation into an attack on their enemies. A big flaming stink posted:i'm actually really offended by this post's implication and it perfectly sums up the ridiculously corrosive effect that dnd's draconian moderation has on conversations. My rap sheet has a series of probes in which mods punished what they believed were low-effort or white noise posting. I'm not going to spend too much effort to argue with a sixer, and most of them were indeed sixers. Then those sixers became proof of me being a bad faith poster, and what would be a sixer offense became a 3 day offense. Suddenly, I was a habitually bad faith poster, and mods used their own actions as evidence that I needed to be more harshly punished. You literally posted misleading articles or ones you didn't even read because they make the opposite point you claim they did several times a week for months every single time it derailed the thread as everyone had to explain your own article to you, how does that not make you a habitually bad faith poster, hell the mods were simply asking you half the time to read the article and explain why you were posting it but that seemed too much for you.
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2021 21:33
|
|
|
BRAKE FOR MOOSE posted:Hm? Nothing about that post looks like it wouldn't be welcome in D&D. CSPAM wouldn't give a poo poo because nobody who regularly posts in CSPAM is going to bother to effortpost on the validity of a very specific book about a very specific topic when the takehome is "the CIA didn't do a horrible thing," but there have been a good number of history effortposts in both forums. I didn't say it wouldn't be welcome in D&D; but like the Media Literacy thread, someone going for a more in depth and nuanced analysis of the organization will result in ruffled feathers. Bishyaler posted:I thought my point of "D&D will never be a calm debate space due to the innate hostility between leftists and liberals" was going to be harder to prove, but then we had liberals falling over themselves to defend the legitimacy of an organization which kills leftists. We even had one poster concoct a scenario to get mad about where he imagined that I would say "gently caress joe biden for not dismantling it yesterday". I think this is a pretty good example of a fairly toxic post; because it isn't quoting or responding to anyone in particular; its referring to an overly broad generalization of posting enemies without being specific; it's misrepresenting the views of some of the powers, and seems to have settled on the most uncharitable interpretation of an exchange; and then did all of this in order to grand stand and engage in oppression olympics as the implied accusation here is their posting enemies are fine with harm being inflicted to their in-group. e: Thorn Wishes Talon posted:The poster you're quoting was banned from D&D after this absolutely psycho post: That post TWT quotes is exactly why my hackles rise whenever some posters try to gatekeep who is or isn't on the left, for that reason. Raenir Salazar fucked around with this message at 21:38 on Oct 30, 2021 |
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2021 21:34
|
|
|
'This forum will never be a calm debate space because of my white hot hatred for anyone an inch to the right of me' is one hell of a self-fulfilling prophecy. e: but I do think it basically hones in on the real problem
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2021 21:35
|
|
|
One major issue is that liberals and leftists have some big and very irreconcilable core ideological differences, which gets compounded by many liberals identifying as leftist(and labeling leftists as fringe extremists) and can end up with new leftists thinking they're liberals and oh lord it's a huge clusterfuck. Not helping is the consistent labeling of these core differences as petty disagreements, like the weird "strange that you dislike someone who agrees with you on most things" arguments I don't actually know how to sort though that tangle though, it's a fuckin mess
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2021 21:42
|
|
|
socialsecurity posted:This is not an argument anyone made and a perfect example about how someone tries their best to warp a conversation into an attack on their enemies. Mods, this is the environment you have created. I made low effort posts, and a good deal of them were bad, I do not deny. Now I am irrevocably cast as "bad faith", and it is extremely cool and good to attack me out of the blue. Is it any wonder fewer and fewer people want to post here? A big flaming stink fucked around with this message at 21:46 on Oct 30, 2021 |
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2021 21:43
|
|
|
Thorn Wishes Talon posted:The poster you're quoting was banned from D&D after this absolutely psycho post: So what's worse, the real actual violence carried out by the CIA or the imagined violence in my head? I'm going with the first one.
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2021 21:46
|
|
|
Bishyaler posted:So what's worse, the real actual violence carried out by the CIA or the imagined violence in my head? I'm going with the first one. Doesn't seem relevant to this thread.
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2021 21:48
|
|
|
Koos Group posted:Doesn't seem relevant to this thread. Perhaps it isn't, but I'm not super thrilled with ad-hominem attacks in response to my argument.
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2021 21:50
|
|
|
Bishyaler posted:So what's worse, the real actual violence carried out by the CIA or the imagined violence in my head? I'm going with the first one. Are Mensheviks, "capitalist roaders" and Trots also only in your head?
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2021 21:50
|
|
|
Yinlock posted:One major issue is that liberals and leftists have some big and very irreconcilable core differences, which gets compounded by many liberals identifying as leftist(and labeling leftists as fringe extremists) and can end up with new leftists thinking they're liberals and oh lord it's a huge clusterfuck. This is a good observation. One irreconcilable difference I can think of right off the bat that lies at the root of most heated disagreements today is the insistence of leftists that Democrats (especially Biden) should just flat out ignore laws they don't like (because it's what Republicans do when they are in power). When they get pushback from D&D regulars, they get increasingly more frustrated and that sometimes results in a probation. Essentially, one side believes that ends justify the means and the other doesn't. It's a fundamental disconnect that has no solution.
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2021 21:51
|
|
|
Yinlock posted:One major issue is that liberals and leftists have some big and very irreconcilable core ideological differences, which gets compounded by many liberals identifying as leftist(and labeling leftists as fringe extremists) and can end up with new leftists thinking they're liberals and oh lord it's a huge clusterfuck. Want to repost this portion of a prior response, bc it really lays out the issue clearly: Ytlaya posted:The best example of this is the fact that someone could make the exact same posts in the succ zone thread and USNews and only be perceived as "acting like an rear end in a top hat" in the latter (with the reasoning that they should have known that their opinions would annoy/anger other posters in that context). In the same way as a liberal USNews poster has an understanding of politics that results in their casual chat being dismissive or mocking towards Republicans/Trump supporters, the same is true for leftists, only with the umbrella also encompassing Democrats/liberals. So there's a fundamental conflict between genuine views; just like a liberal USNews poster isn't posting in "bad faith" when they talk about disliking chuds, the same is true for some leftist who dislikes your average liberal.
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2021 22:02
|
|
|
Raenir Salazar posted:The CIA thing is interesting because the best places to discuss topics like that currently in practice tend not to be D&D or CSPAM, like LatwPiat's recent effort post in TFR is the kind of post that's not really possible or all that welcome by a vocal minority of posters in D&D, but in a completely different subforum these posts get made by passionate interested people and actual discussion that's really interesting can actually happen. TFR is a shitshow in its own way, though.
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2021 22:03
|
|
|
Yinlock posted:One major issue is that liberals and leftists have some big and very irreconcilable core ideological differences, which gets compounded by many liberals identifying as leftist(and labeling leftists as fringe extremists) and can end up with new leftists thinking they're liberals and oh lord it's a huge clusterfuck. Maybe the leftists you keep calling liberals don't like being mislabeled? Maybe you aren't the sole arbiter of what makes a person a leftist and people get annoyed when you rush to give them a label so you can hate on them?
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2021 22:06
|
|
|
Leftists annoying other leftists by labeling them as liberals is a phenomenon as old as leftism.
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2021 22:08
|
|
|
Liberals calling themselves leftists for various reasons is a thing that happens. Leftists calling leftists liberals for disagreements right down to because they have priorities #4 and #5 backwards on their top ten list is a thing that happens. So is leftists calling leftists "liberals" because they're embarrassing to be associated with for reasons not actually dependent on their ideology. None of them are particularly rare things, even, and were well-tread ground years before this forum birthed its first political slapfight. That's part of why arguing the label is always gonna be dumb.
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2021 22:13
|
|
|
socialsecurity posted:Maybe the leftists you keep calling liberals don't like being mislabeled? Maybe you aren't the sole arbiter of what makes a person a leftist and people get annoyed when you rush to give them a label so you can hate on them? Could you clarify where you got these assumptions from? I was not specifying anyone in particular and did not mean to offend you. Killer robot posted:Liberals calling themselves leftists for various reasons is a thing that happens. Leftists calling leftists liberals for disagreements right down to because they have priorities #4 and #5 backwards on their top ten list is a thing that happens. So is leftists calling leftists "liberals" because they're embarrassing to be associated with for reasons not actually dependent on their ideology. None of them are particularly rare things, even, and were well-tread ground years before this forum birthed its first political slapfight. That's part of why arguing the label is always gonna be dumb. It might be a difference of priority #4 and #5 to one person, but a huge deal to another. My main problem with the "we agree on most things" argument is that the oft-unspoken disagreement can be very substantial. Yinlock fucked around with this message at 22:18 on Oct 30, 2021 |
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2021 22:14
|
|
|
Cease to Hope posted:Leftists annoying other leftists by labeling them as liberals is a phenomenon as old as leftism. Purity purges never end. Once one is done another one starts with a new definition of insufficiently pure. This thread and the past feedback threads are just the latest bits of evidence on a mountainous pile.
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2021 22:18
|
|
|
Cease to Hope posted:Leftists annoying other leftists by labeling them as liberals is a phenomenon as old as leftism. But seriously, instead of dancing around this subject for months(/years?), how about people just lay out their political views in a concise manner so people can interrogate those? Being evasive about your actual views just results in a bunch of innocent strawmen getting massacred.
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2021 22:21
|
|
|
Yinlock posted:It might be a difference of priority #4 and #5 to one person, but a huge deal to another. My main problem with the "we agree on most things" argument is that the oft-unspoken disagreement can be very substantial. Believe me I hate the "we agree on most things" argument too, but the solution in that case is to interrogate those differences instead of just declaring an insurmountable gulf exists. State your beliefs clearly, argue with other peoples' stated beliefs. Don't let labels do the talking.
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2021 22:22
|
|
|
fool of sound posted:Believe me I hate the "we agree on most things" argument too, but the solution in that case is to interrogate those differences instead of just declaring an insurmountable gulf exists. State your beliefs clearly, argue with other peoples' stated beliefs. Don't let labels do the talking.
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2021 22:26
|
|
|
fool of sound posted:Believe me I hate the "we agree on most things" argument too, but the solution in that case is to interrogate those differences instead of just declaring an insurmountable gulf exists. State your beliefs clearly, argue with other peoples' stated beliefs. Don't let labels do the talking. Not if the goal of the user is to ruin discussion or abuse others. In that case, being vague and saying discussion of specifics is pointless, or tossing out deliver inflammatory falsehoods, is highly effective… unless the people doing it are stopped by the people with the responsibility of doing so.
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2021 22:27
|
|
|
Cease to Hope posted:Leftists annoying other leftists by labeling them as liberals is a phenomenon as old as leftism. You liberals always say this to divide leftists!
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2021 22:30
|
|
|
A Buttery Pastry posted:The fact that the "D&D clique" is failing to do this calls into question their leftist credentials. fool of sound posted:Believe me I hate the "we agree on most things" argument too, but the solution in that case is to interrogate those differences instead of just declaring an insurmountable gulf exists. State your beliefs clearly, argue with other peoples' stated beliefs. Don't let labels do the talking. One problem arises where people are being honest about their beliefs but are accused of having some kind of Secret Agenda, for an example see the mess that led to the creation of the #metoo thread where people(and by people I mean "current moderator GreyjoyBastard") constantly insisted that posters were just pretending to be mad about the Reade situation to own their posting enemies, whatever that means e: See also any talk of "Virtue Signaling" or "Purity Tests" which I have only ever seen used to excuse heinous poo poo Yinlock fucked around with this message at 22:36 on Oct 30, 2021 |
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2021 22:31
|
|
|
fool of sound posted:Believe me I hate the "we agree on most things" argument too, but the solution in that case is to interrogate those differences instead of just declaring an insurmountable gulf exists. State your beliefs clearly, argue with other peoples' stated beliefs. Don't let labels do the talking. I mean, the difference between "Dems should govern lawfully" and "Dems should ignore laws they don't like because that's the best way to wield political power" is quite irreconcilable, for example. And every time it comes up it results in flame wars and poo poo gets nasty.
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2021 22:32
|
|
|
Thorn Wishes Talon posted:I mean, the difference between "Dems should govern lawfully" and "Dems should ignore laws they don't like because that's the best way to wield political power" is quite irreconcilable, for example. And every time it comes up it results in flame wars and poo poo gets nasty. It’s also not at all a “leftist” vs “liberal” opinion
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2021 22:36
|
|
|
Yinlock posted:Could you clarify where you got these assumptions from? I was not specifying anyone in particular and did not mean to offend you. The difference between the Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1879 and the Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912 might indeed be substantial to them, but if they consider the other, the Catholic, the Mormon, and the Gnostic all to be equally "heretic" bystanders aren't obligated to treat them all as gravely serious as the speaker.
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2021 22:36
|
|
|
Owlofcreamcheese posted:It’s also not at all a “leftist” vs “liberal” opinion I mean when you say blackmailing manchin probably is a bad idea you get labeled a democrat worshipping liberal so it certainly feels that way.
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2021 22:37
|
|
|
Yinlock posted:One problem arises where people are being honest about their beliefs but are accused of having some kind of Secret Agenda Another problem arises when people very clearly hold views that most of the thread consider abhorrent, and would probably get them banned. I think those people should probably be banned anyway, but, since it's not happening, it remains a problem.
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2021 22:39
|
|
|
A question I suppose it prompts is what disagreement is (a) ideologically insurmountable (b) that the majority of D&D holds and (c) Justifies labelling the majority of the users Liberals? (d) Why does this difference matter in regards to moderation? (e) Why does this difference mean respectful discussion can't happen? If the criticism of the claim that most users agree on 80% of things papers over insurmountable differences then what are they?
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2021 22:40
|
|
|
Thorn Wishes Talon posted:I mean, the difference between "Dems should govern lawfully" and "Dems should ignore laws they don't like because that's the best way to wield political power" is quite irreconcilable, for example. And every time it comes up it results in flame wars and poo poo gets nasty. It's more of a disagreement about fighting fire with fire(or rather if playing by the rules is a good idea when your opponent just ignores them entirely) but yeah there's no reconciling that one.
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2021 22:41
|
|
|
Cease to Hope posted:Another problem arises when people very clearly hold views that most of the thread consider abhorrent, and would probably get them banned. I think those people should probably be banned anyway, but, since it's not happening, it remains a problem. Ignore lists exist for a reason. No one is obligated to respond to an obvious troll. If you can't help your itchy finger from hitting reply to them, blank them out. The problem with ignore lists is that no one sees the stupid things the trolls say and they never get reported, so the mods think everyone is fine with it.
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2021 22:44
|
|
|
Yinlock posted:It's more of a disagreement about fighting fire with fire(or rather if playing by the rules is a good idea when your opponent just ignores them entirely) but yeah there's no reconciling that one. It doesn't help that "We shouldn't do X because it will undercut our moral high ground and hurt us in the long term despite short-term benefits" and "We shouldn't do X because it will materially fail and we won't even see short term benefits" are frequently treated as synonymous arguments.
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2021 22:45
|
|
|
Deteriorata posted:The problem with ignore lists is that no one sees the stupid things the trolls say and they never get reported, so the mods think everyone is fine with it. If no one sees the troll, they won't successfully derail the conversation, which means no damage is done, so who cares?
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2021 22:46
|
|
|
500 good dogs posted:If no one sees the troll, they won't successfully derail the conversation, which means no damage is done, so who cares? Considering how many people in this very thread were bragging because people ignored fancy pelosi I imagine quite a few
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2021 22:48
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 27, 2024 20:22 |
|
|
500 good dogs posted:If no one sees the troll, they won't successfully derail the conversation, which means no damage is done, so who cares? Yeah, somehow I don't think it's underreporting of trolling that's the problem, as opposed to using a clear definition of it or applying it evenly.
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2021 22:48
|
|