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Mellow Seas posted:I get salty with people because of personality issues, not because of policy issues, and I'm not really interested in having to-the-death debates about policy issues. I really just want to talk about the news, and I don't want people expressing schadenfreude at my expense. I don't really read CSPAM so this is an honest question - how do people who are, for lack of a better term, "pro-AOC and Bernie Sanders", get along with the posters who are constantly making GBS threads on them? How do you keep that disagreement from spiraling into hostility? Is one side dominant over the other? Does it come down, thread by thread, to just who can shout the loudest? I mean yeah, D&D fights are obviously often about personality and wanting an audience and CSPAM's big "secret" is that they're more inclusive of different thoughts and ideas. You hit the nail on the head.
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Oct 26, 2021 16:43
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Mellow Seas posted:Maybe this is asking a lot but could you maybe link an example of a discussion going well in CSPAM that you think would go poorly in D&D? If your answer is "gently caress off, go find one yourself" that's fine. The entire CSPAM paranormal thread. It's an interesting mix of true believers, people who are looking at paranormal things mostly from a sociological perspective, or don't believe but are interested. I do not think that thread would do well at all in D&D and would quickly become little people showing off how much they don't believe in dumb baby poo poo.
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Oct 26, 2021 16:54
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Pentecoastal Elites posted:I have no idea what goes on in the megathreads (Trump, Climate, Covid, etc) but if you're a lurker reading this who wants to talk about politics and C-SPAM seems too mean or whatever: come post in C-SPAM. It's actually a very good place to post, especially now that thanks to da toe killa the worst and dumbest threads are gone. My favorite is the Marxism thread, which flips seamlessly between friendly and funny shitposting and legitimately insightful analyses and discussions by some incredibly smart and well-read posters CSPAM has never told me that my actual beliefs were just me trolling so I'm a lot more willing to post in CSPAM. I feel like that's another big difference between the two. If you believe something dumb CSPAMs attitude tends to be that yes you believe it and also that you're dumb for it. If D&D thinks you have a dumb belief it seems to default to this idea that there's no way you actually think that and you must be making it up to troll people which is honestly a lot more insulting and hostile than just being told it's dumb.
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Oct 26, 2021 16:58
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Mellow Seas posted:That's funny, because a lot of people have told me my actual beliefs are trolling the last few days. (The guy who made the post below me, too.) So you think I'm being insincere in my belief that d&d constantly assumes that disagreements and thinking that doesn't fit into the mainstream is insincere and actually meant to troll them instead of being a person's actual beliefs? At least it's consistent.
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Oct 26, 2021 17:09
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), so I'm not surprised you've taken a sensible, personable approach to posting in CSPAM; thanks for sharing your thoughts.
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enki42 posted:Does this depend on thread though? I was going to post that the only threads I really post in in C-SPAM and pay any attention to are the canada one and the COVID one. Oh totally but even in that regard cspam is more likely to just have 2 threads about the same subject with different opinions while d&d mods traditionally don't like multiple threads like that and are a lot more picky about threads existing.
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Oct 26, 2021 17:14
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Mellow Seas posted:Should there not be a place to post where "Dem party loyalism" (which, to me, is just a pragmatic take on "how do we keep Republicans out of power as much as possible") is acceptable? Where it's not something people get attacked for, or have their opinions, observations or even outright fact-based statements treated as invalid for? That all seems fine but the label should be fixed than. Call it the laughing at chuds sub instead of d&d. Hell I think an actual debate forum is a dumb and stupid idea and we would be better off of we were just honest they there's a politics forum for the far left and a politics forum for liberals but we should actually be honest about it. If you want a place to laugh at chuds and laugh at wrong think feel free, just call it that.
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Oct 26, 2021 17:30
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Another good way to post political opinions without anyone having the ability to comment about them is to not do it in public. That is also a suggestion if having people see your opinions and also have opinions is tough. A text message chain or discord is useful if you just want to yuck it up with a couple of close friends who agree with you.
Gumball Gumption fucked around with this message at 17:39 on Oct 26, 2021 |
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Oct 26, 2021 17:37
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Mellow Seas posted:Sometimes it feels like when people say "the CSPAM thread about [x] is better" they're saying "the CSPAM thread about [x] has less posts that I disagree with." A lot of your problem seems to keep circling back to you being unable to believe the things people tell you at face value. You ask for what people like about cspam, they tell you, and then you decide they they must be lying and actually it's this thing you figured out and that they couldn't figure out about themselves. Maybe just listen to people and believe them.
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Oct 26, 2021 17:52
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Mellow Seas posted:Dude, you're all over the place. Done discussing this with you. Have a nice day How are you this rude to other people without any self awareness?
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Oct 26, 2021 18:30
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Thorn Wishes Talon posted:While I'm not a fan of CommieGIR "posting through it", as the saying goes, in all fairness they have been attacked relentlessly by dozens of posters for the past week and I can't blame them for getting increasingly more defensive and flippant. So the problem is actually your posting enemies?
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Oct 26, 2021 20:28
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Pentecoastal Elites posted:literally "no one deserves to be heard unless they are more polite to me and my posting pals" The D&D/CSPAM divide is just the words " The tone is more important than the message" but in two different tones.
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Oct 26, 2021 20:31
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fool of sound posted:Since none of you fuckwits can apparently abide by the "don't debate each other in this thread" rules, I'm putting down the red hammer: you will be probated for a week if you quote/subtweet a non-mod in this thread, or if you try to cutely circumvent this rule. This rule will go into effect 5 minutes after this is posted. If you're in this thread to wage ideological war with other posters, leave and don't return. If you're here because you love to join every bit of drama that appears on this entire website, autoban yourself and don't return. Yeah I'll just say it again the most exhausting thing about D&D is the constant rules about good faith while assuming any criticism or disagreement is coming from an insincere place.
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Oct 26, 2021 20:45
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fool of sound posted:Because I'm stupid enough to keep believing that people can discuss changes like reasonable adults instead of overgrown children screaming and throwing fruit in the produce isle and challenging the shift manager to a fight. fool of sound posted:Since none of you fuckwits can apparently abide by the "don't debate each other in this thread" rules, I'm putting down the red hammer: you will be probated for a week if you quote/subtweet a non-mod in this thread, or if you try to cutely circumvent this rule. This rule will go into effect 5 minutes after this is posted. If you're in this thread to wage ideological war with other posters, leave and don't return. If you're here because you love to join every bit of drama that appears on this entire website, autoban yourself and don't return. Why do the people demanding decorum also talk to everyone like this?
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Oct 26, 2021 20:49
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USPol being popular also seems like your biggest headache so you might have the solution there.
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Oct 26, 2021 21:44
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What if you just made USNews insanely strict since it sounds like there is something really specific you want there. It's just got news, nothing else. You post the article, post your editorial, and if anyone wants to respond they can spin out a new thread if it doesn't exist and respond there. Or just something like that. It sounds like a bunch of goons use USNews like it's an RSS feed and it seems like you want to preserve that but it also flies in the face of what USnews is, a discussion thread.
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Oct 26, 2021 22:40
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I also think there might just be a high horse the mods need to get off of when it comes to what USPol and D&D is. There's a lot of ideas they keep throwing around about discussions and how to encourage more and the true purpose of USNews and making sure it's catering to the posters and the lurkers. And also the current discussion is a "Name the band" joke.
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Oct 26, 2021 23:12
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fool of sound posted:Threadbans and forumbans were specifically an admin directive. The idea is that by using them instead of harsh punishments, someone who is a problem in one place but not others isn't denied access to the entire forums because they can't contain themselves in one specific area. I'm... torn of the efficacy really. For some posters it's absolutely worked, for others it's just encouraged a bad poster to be bad elsewhere instead, and for some others they'd probably have been fine to come back after like a week or something via normal probations. I do think that threadbans in particular have been overused lately tbh. This might be outside of this thread but if they're an admin decree why have they been given no technical support? It's very odd and feels silly to avoid using the tools we have, probes and bans, to use these adhoc tools that you're not even really keeping track of and then also not give you any way to make it a real system. It's really weird and something that I never understand about SomethingAwful. We're a gated community yet really hate the idea of using that gate.
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Oct 27, 2021 00:26
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I also have to be honest, it's kind of funny that the thread started out with thisCommieGIR posted:At the end of this whole thing, lemme be clear: The community owns D&D. Not the mods. and now it turns out multiple bad d&d ideas are admin decree that seem to be a hands tied situation.
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Oct 27, 2021 00:28
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GreyjoyBastard posted:re: the technical underpinnings of mod tools: He has yospos in his name for gods sake! What a sloppy shop
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Oct 27, 2021 00:34
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fool of sound posted:Ok, I think this does need to be said. The idea of having a functioning admin team actually overseeing the mods and developing consistent policy really didn't exist prior to 2019, afaict. Like before that there were 1-2 boss admins at a time who specifically handled big executive decision stuff but otherwise mods were left to their own devices with no oversight. The whole fyad drama into lowtax situation in rapid succession kinda upended everything and there has kinda been a (glacially slow) effort to figure out what consistent policies and practices on the site should look like. There has been some experimentation, and the lack of an admin who is particularly familiar with the politics forums has made things kind of difficult. Not to mention the codebase for this website is a loving disaster that's still being cleaned up pretty heroically by astral. This isn't really intended to be a "this is the admins' fault" post because the D&D mods have made poor and inconsistent decisions too, but some of the inconsistency and inertia does happen above our heads. Yeah that's not my point and not what I think you're suggesting. I also definitely think we should just use the tools we have and be more willing to make people pay ten bux over making new thread ban tools. I just really do find it funny that the thread started with this big promise but it's not actually true because this website is really dysfunctional and doesn't know what it's doing. "Hey guys we see you and hear you and the community makes the decisions. Unless it's one of the weird things the admins decided. In that case we'll try but like sheesh it's gonna be tough"
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Oct 27, 2021 01:15
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The D&D mods are literally incapable of not mixing it up and getting into fights in the feedback thread. That might be one of the problems.
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Oct 27, 2021 16:54
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The problem isn't even that it's Calvinball it's they if you point out it's Calvinball D&D has to launch intoA Buttery Pastry posted:Forced assimilation is genocide, just not the exterminatory kind. Letting people use another term to describe what is happening in China, the meaning of which overlaps with variants of genocide, isn't really a rule change. Now if what had been enforced was that it was genocide denial to claim that China did not have extermination camps, and now it's alright to describe it solely as forced assimilation, then it obviously would be a rule change. Instead of just going "Yeah, it's is Calvinball. Deal with it" like the rest of SA does when it comes to rules.
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Oct 27, 2021 17:13
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Definitely not how you fix honesty and trust problems.
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Oct 27, 2021 17:42
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fool of sound posted:Going to break kayfabe for a moment to say that I'm not super interested in the trust or respect or opinions of posters that I think should be banned. If you have a problem with that complain to the admins. No one knows who you're talking about. To everyone except you this looks like you're tilting at windmills.
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Oct 27, 2021 17:50
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A Buttery Pastry posted:What? I'm definitely not on the "D&D side" of this, I just think it trivializes the many reasonable complaints about the moderation to try to own fos on that poo poo. I've called for the resignation of every single one of the D&D mods, that doesn't mean I'm gonna back every argument in favor of that end. People badly arguing for your position sucks. Yeah that wasn't meant to be a specific call out of you and that might not of been the best example. I just think a lot of the D&D problem is a lack of honestly, especially when they honestly would go against an idealized version of D&D, and more specifically that it's always around dumb poo poo like the rules. The rules are dumb Calvinball that are arbitrarily made up by the mods. Which is totally fine, that's how well of SA runs, but because this is D&D the mods feel this need to project being neutral and arbitrary. It really would be progress here to at least acknowledge that D&D is Calvinball just like the rest of the website.
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Oct 27, 2021 18:05
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The feedback thread is now about who's justified to provide feedback and was lead there entirely by a mod. That is classic stonewalling techniques.
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Oct 27, 2021 18:42
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So there's a list of posters who meet the criteria for valid opinions and no you can't see the list and no you can't know the criteria?
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Oct 27, 2021 19:07
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Famethrowa posted:Honestly, USPOL should be a CCCC thread, right? The mix of horserace politics and funny conservatives tweets combined with serious discussion about controversial stuff has never really gelled. Honestly yeah, that would also solve a lot of the problems D&D has according to this thread and the mods.
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Oct 27, 2021 19:08
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Deteriorata posted:USNews is a single thread, with a different set of rules specifically for that thread. It's fairly common on most forums. Are you new to the SA forums? Your reg date suggests you've been around long enough to know this. D&D bring this rude about everything is also something that sucks about D&D.
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Oct 27, 2021 21:06
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It's going to be funny when Jeff makes another post and it turns out you're both reading the admin tea leaves wrong because that's the cycle this always takes.
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Oct 27, 2021 22:20
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Being a mod being an impossible task that just gets you harassed is also a long standing problem in SA that we've mostly dealt with by trying nothing and being all out of ideas. Those sort of problems really stack up.
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Oct 27, 2021 23:38
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:Yes it is clearly the dnd posters that want to purge their posting enemies. Everytime the mods decide someone else doesn't deserve to talk your posts get even funnier.
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Oct 27, 2021 23:59
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It's a Hitler gang tag about him as an artist, not as a genocide architect. Oh it reminds you of the genocide? Have you tried getting smarter you baby?
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Oct 28, 2021 15:27
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I think the Sherman tag is just an amazing example of the awful attitude in d&d. The same argument for many other historical figures wouldn't fly. You'd rightfully laugh out Hitler the artist, wernher von braun the scientist, Andrew Jackson, Revolutionary war hero. Pro-chairman Xi and no one is allowed to mention the genocide and it's called disingenuous if they do, I'm sure d&d would love that. But the Sherman tag is the one thing that arbitrarily gets a pass of "It's not about his genocide, it's about his actions during the war" which mind you was also horrific. It's just a great example of the hypocritical lovely attitude in d&d that assumes all disagreement comes from a disingenuous place. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 28, 2021 17:44
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Mellow Seas posted:Dude, he's had that gangtag for ages, and SUDDENLY it's SUPER OFFENSIVE when we're in the middle of a pile-on? It's really hard to take that poo poo seriously, and it's also hard to take your constant pleas for It's not a plea for decorum it's pointing out that the go to attitude in d&d, and a big problem with it, is the attitude that any criticism or disagreement is insincere and you've mostly met it by telling me I'm insincere. It's consistent I'll give you that.
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Oct 28, 2021 18:22
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seriously when you called me an idiot in QCS for liking a popular rock album.
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If you voted for someone who was credibly accused of rape you should probably expect people to sometimes ask "hey what's up with that?" and if the question sucks and feels bad, yeah. The whole thing sucks and it's a good sign that it makes you feel bad since it would be a whole lot worse if you didn't care. Sorry the world sucks.
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Oct 29, 2021 18:54
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CommieGIR posted:That, however, does not make them rape apologists. What makes them rape apologists is trying to downplay and or attack Tara Reade or other rape survivors. If I thought it did I would say it did. Again, this is my main complaint with D&D that it's impossible to ever have what you say taken in earnest. It is always assumed there is a motive or a lie.
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Oct 29, 2021 19:02
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CommieGIR posted:They are going to called out on it, is what I meant. Strongly. What's the official number of deaths according to D&D? Because that's primarily the "genocide denial" that's being talked about. People discussing that the number of deaths is a very complicated figure to find the truth of.
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Oct 29, 2021 22:19
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CommieGIR posted:Number of deaths does not a genocide make, and that's a very poor way to classify genocide. And, within this context of rule discussion: Are you saying you disbelieve the people coming from Uighur communities saying this has happened, or people who were at Tianamen square who said it was cracked down on? And forced conversions/mass re-education is very much cultural genocide, even if mass death is not the primary end goal. Oppressing or erasing the cultural traces of a minority group, even if you do not kill them, is cultural genocide. No, my point is that when people talk about cspam denying genocide in Tianamen square what cspam was talking about was that the death toll is a very disputed number and it's tough to understand what an actual historical account is because everyone involved lied to benefit themselves.
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Oct 29, 2021 22:34
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CommieGIR posted:We're gonna let an admin mull this over, but okay my bad if I misunderstood it was just in that context specifically. I guess here is the easiest way to put it. If someone said they believe less than 10000 people died in Tianamen Square and they think the number is smaller and isn't a jackass about it how does that get handled? Because that's the number you'll find if you Google it's the number you'll see in recent news articles, and is also highly disputed like everything else with the death toll. There's a lot of grey between "nothing happened" and "none of the official accounts are actually factual" and that grey area is usually what people are talking about and what gets those accusations of genocide denial so I think it's worth figuring out and codifying when that grey turns into black and white in D&D so that people don't accidently end up there and so these cries of genocide denial can stop being used as a way to win arguments.
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Oct 29, 2021 22:48
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