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TulliusCicero posted:
Means testing is a hell of a thing to be put through. Every time the democrats means test aid - whether by some arbitrary poverty cap based on 1950's economic data or one's desire or ability to have a child, they leave a struggling person behind. Every time the democrats leave struggling people behind, some nonzero portion of those people swear off the democrats.
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Nov 1, 2021 20:55
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How are u posted:The poster has previously expressed frustration that the child tax credit doesn't do anything for them and their partner, who have no children. So yes I believe so. I can answer for myself, bud, but thanks. Thom12255 posted:Is this calling out the child tax credit? Yes. I have not, and will continue to not be shy about my feeling that the child tax credit is not enough of a reparative measure for all Americans, simply based on the fact that it is a "child tax credit" and not a "tax credit for everyone." Kirios posted:Their hope is is they act enough like a child on the internet they will qualify for the child care tax credit. My hope is that the democrats will do something to discharge the $40,000 worth of medical debt I took on during the pandemic.
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Nov 1, 2021 21:06
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Delthalaz posted:Student loan discharge won’t directly help the 87% of americans without student loans but the government should still do it. 100% of all non-business-related loans should be forgiven imo, just, absolutely gently caress the banks, every single one of them. student loans? gone. car loans? gone. personal loans? gone. mortgages? gone. small business loans? government takes them over, small business tyrants now pay a tithe to the government
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Nov 1, 2021 21:48
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Solkanar512 posted:I'm still waiting to hear how children are means tested, thanks. Children aren't means tested. The aid (money) is means tested. The metric by which the aid is means tested is "is the potential recipient have a dependent child?"
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Nov 1, 2021 21:59
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Professor Beetus posted:No not really. I agree completely that medical debt should be wiped out entirely; it doesn't require the framing that somehow the CTC is a bad thing to advocate for or desire that. The government could clearly afford to do all these things and more since there's infinite money for the military industrial complex and bank bailouts. It's not bad, it's simply insufficient means to repair the American working class. Would you like to respond to that rather than the post you think I'm making?
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Nov 1, 2021 22:57
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What would be wrong with replacing the child tax credit with an equivalent amount for all Americans? Let's say that the tax credit magically becomes permanent overnight, and is expanded so that every person residing within the borders of the united states is given $600 a month, what have parents lost?
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Nov 1, 2021 23:52
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Killer robot posted:Just to be clear, Lib and let die posted:every person residing within the borders of the united states is given $600 a month I'm not sure how much more specific I can be on this. A child residing within the borders of the united states is...a person residing within the borders of the united states, right? I'd argue in fact that my way would provide more for parents - $600 for each parent, and then $600 for each kid, credited to the parents.
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Nov 2, 2021 00:02
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Killer robot posted:Of course that would be more, that's my whole point. If that was your proposal to start, why didn't you make it then? If you'd led with how you'd rather see UBI starting at birth, there wouldn't be ambiguity whether you meant you wanted UBI for all adults instead of the current UBI for children Is your issue that my criticism that the democrats aren't doing enough is wrong or that I didn't present it in the proper manner? I'm happy to debate the merits of means testing aid but I'm not interested in engaging in a signal:noise disrupting derail on whether or not I paid appropriate fealty to the table scraps we (some of us at least) have been given.
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Nov 2, 2021 00:32
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Killer robot posted:I think the parts of my post that you selected and deleted in making the reply are relevant there. To put it another way, why did you repeatedly frame aid to children as being aid to breeders or whatever, if your argument was actually that a program that helps both children and adults could be better? It still sounds by your "it could be argued" that you only even picked up on that possibility after doubling down on the "why shouldn't a couple without kids get the same help as one with" sort of talk? I'm not asking you to love the CTC and kiss it and marry it or anything. It just feels really weird and unclear what you even think it is, or alternatively what you think "means testing" is at least in any negative sense. The free pre-K is also means-tested based on whether you are at any point in your life a child, I suppose. It seems like you're doing an awful lot of typing to justify your initial, maybe intentional, maybe not, worst possible interpretation of my position that the child tax credit isn't doing enough to help everyone. This is, again, a sidebar to the criticism itself that's unhealthy to the thread's signal:noise ratio.
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Nov 2, 2021 01:19
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Killer robot posted:Universal Pre-K and the CTC are both currently part of the reconciliation bill and yet only one of the two gets called out on "Meh, why this thing that's means-tested based on reproductive status, doesn't help me none." And it's the less focused one that benefits more people. People without kids don't need Pre-K. People without kids do need help crawling out of debt (eta: people with kids can also need both!). If the Pre-K is means tested, that's even more of a disappointment - I haven't probed the particulars of the UPK part of the bill (since it's not relevant to my situation) so "actually, that part is means tested, too!" isn't doing it any favors in my evaluation.
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Nov 2, 2021 01:40
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Discendo Vox posted:Because it allows the user to derail the discussion to address an endlessly shifting counterfactual, and abuse any recognition of any good thing in preference to the unreal (and any user who expresses understanding of what is happening). I will request politely, once, that you keep your words in your own mouth. I'm fully capable of speaking for my own motivations, and if I wanted your words in my mouth I'd slap them out of yours and scoop them up out of the dirt myself.
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Nov 2, 2021 13:13
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CommieGIR posted:Could we not do this? Can we "not do" both parts? I'm perfectly happy not to engage with DV so long as they're willing to not take shots about what "the poster" is saying in place of me speaking for myself.
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Nov 2, 2021 13:36
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Willa Rogers posted:Lmao, called it. We were never going to get something good like help with keppra or insulin injectors without the owners clawing a share of their handouts back. Hopefully Medicare having the ability to negotiate prices will have a savings effect downstream, but who knows any more. I wouldn't put it past Pharma interests to jack up prices for non-Medicare plans and run media blitzes against the democrats for it.
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Nov 2, 2021 20:42
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:Short answer. Yes. Insurance does not protect you from financial ruin if you actually have to use it. It can depend on your insurance obviously, but the bronze and silver plans are not protecting people that get cancer from bankruptcy. Cancer? They hardly even cover physical therapy. A $100 office visit being $90 if you have insurance isn't helping anyone!
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Nov 2, 2021 22:21
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Old James posted:I've been wondering how Progressives could scare the party leaders into paying attention to us. What about a coordinated effort to get Progressives to change their registration to Independent before Jan 1, then switch back in time to make an impact on the Primaries? We could just stop voting for democrats. It's not that hard. I did it right here in broward county last time I voted. when faced with a dwindling voter base and an increasing share of electoral losses, the hope is that democrats change (lol) or crumble and be replaced by an actual leftist movement (also probably lol) No, I don't care to hear the "but creeping fascism!!!!" doomerism nonsense. be optimistic 
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Nov 3, 2021 14:54
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Willo567 posted:If Trump got reelected in 2024, could America actually survive another term with him after he tried to do an insurrection? He's too mentally unhinged and his fanbase is full of cultists Definitely maybe.  I mean it's not like we've done this dance before.  It's not a line of thinking we've heard year in, year out.  Our "faves" haven't been abusing dire language for over a decade  And the idea of America being one election away from fascism is clearly not a partisan thought  War criminals haven't used it to extend their time at the helm  I don't know. Maybe we can't survive another bad election.  Jury's still out, I guess. 
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Nov 3, 2021 15:08
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CommieGIR posted:I thought tides were already turning against DeSantis? If they are, it's not being exploited in South Florida/Broward. Not even the local Progressive Politics Podcaster is covering much of a "resistance" to DeSantis. You'd think a year out, a Democratic challenger would have emerged and gotten some press but unless I've somehow done the impossible and managed to actually get removed from every democrat mailing list ever, there's hardly a peep about running someone against him next year.
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Nov 3, 2021 16:22
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MixMasterMalaria posted:If they run Crist again then I'm just going to assume that the fl dem party is managed opposition at this point because there's no way an organization staffed by adult human beings could be so incompetent. I know I'm not a representative slice of the Average Florida Voter, but I would absolutely break my "I will never vote for a democrat again" oath if they ran Andrew Gillum again based solely on the fact that a meth-addicted, bisexual prostitute connoisseur would govern better than any democrat or republican that's electorally viable.
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Nov 3, 2021 16:32
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Darkrenown posted:"Hello, I don't care about diabetics dying because they can't afford drugs, or trans people being murdered. Wake me up when I can have some weed. Yes, I am the true leftist here" Aren't there quite literally hundreds of thousands of otherwise-innocent nonwhite people in jail because weed is illegal? What, exactly, is so deplorable about your line in the sand being "hey, these guys don't actually want to end racist social construct laws?" (e: quoted the wrong post)
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Nov 3, 2021 18:02
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Kraftwerk posted:I wonder how many *voters* have issues with health insurance or medical bills... or alternatively avoid the healthcare system entirely due to cost/bureaucracy... Would be nice to see how many people in America would support M4A just from those pain points alone. Like if we had hard data about who these people are, where they live and who they currently vote for, and if they'd change their votes to someone who offers an alternative. This has been said after every election cycle I've paid attention to, and while the intent is absolutely there at the start, it becomes complicated when noise gets introduced into the playbook. Let's say that the walking, talking avatar of this mindset, Healthcare Reformerman gets an interview on CNN on, I don't know, who's on the tube these days besides Maddow and Carlson? Is Ellison still there or that Cillizza idiot? Take your pick, whichever millionaire rear end in a top hat manufacturing consent for the billionaire network owner of your flavor, and Mr. Reformerman just say "No, I'm not going to answer that. You pay for war and you pay for police so don't give me that nonsense about 'how are we going to pay for it?'" I'd guarantee you that in less time than it takes the news cycle to, well, cycle, that the narrative that "Progressive Dems/3rd Party Candidate Healthcare Reformerman Can't Even Explain How to Pay for Complete Overhaul of US Healthcare System" would solidly take hold - and that's just among liberal outfits like CNN or MSNBC. I could only imagine the very start of "LIBERAL COMMUNISTS WANT TO PILFER POLICE POCKETS TO PROVIDE SEXUAL REASSIGNMENT SURGERY FOR ILLEGAL ALIENS!" on FOX and poo poo.
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Nov 3, 2021 18:43
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Hellblazer187 posted:It's weird that we're talking about weed in the "dems didn't do anything FOR ME" discussion because Yeah, and I'm willing to give credit on state-level victories where we can get them - we managed to pass medical marijuana down here in Florida (on the same ballot year that got DeSantis elected lmao) but it certainly hasn't been pretty. Because of the way it's handled federally, it's still largely a cash-only operation except in places where they accept, I think it's called, CanPay which forces you to round your purchase up to the next $5 because of Reasons, and it's largely just a handful of privately owned, monopolistic dispensaries (all of which except one seem absolutely dedicated to that asinine inventory model where you count poo poo that's in transit as in stock), and it'd be nice if it was just recreational and it was federal, and didn't cost hundreds of dollars a year to maintain your license to toke but...we did it, in some capacity. But then also straight up asinine poo poo happens, like the state overwhelmingly voting to restore the right to vote to citizens returning from the incarceration system and then the republican governor (again elected the very same ballot year, lmfao) going "actually, no." and then...that being the end of it. in summary, florida politics is a land of contrasts. eta: please for the love of god do not associate my disappointment with the child tax credit not being a universal tax credit with...whatever the gently caress lionarcher is on about eta2: to be clear, these were not policies brought on by the democrats' party, these were policies voted on directly through ballot initiatives Lib and let die fucked around with this message at 19:02 on Nov 3, 2021 |
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Nov 3, 2021 18:55
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Darkrenown posted:No, I'm not. They made the point in a way that showed they're a horribly selfish person who only wants things which benefit them while any good things which don't benefit them directly don't matter and I'm reacting to that. Unless TA was not stating their views but instead posing as a hypothetical generic voter? It didn't seem like that though. As of a 2019 Gallup poll, ~12% of Americans regularly engage in a federally criminal offense: https://news.gallup.com/poll/284135/percentage-americans-smoke-marijuana.aspx. Federal legalization of marijuana would decriminalize the behavior of ~39,000,000 people. Nearly 60% of the American population is some flavor of nonwhite. You keep deriding people who won't vote for centrist shitlibs as selfish brats that just want to sit at home and smoke weed and take naps, so I thought some actual numbers might disabuse you of this notion. This is, of course, only representative of those comfortable enough to self-report as smoking marijuana.
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Nov 3, 2021 19:15
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Darkrenown posted:The poster in question literally said they don't care about insulin costs or bathroom bills, but would be motivated to vote for weed. I look at it like this: a President can, with the stroke of a pen, essentially legalize marijuana, or erase student debt. There's no fight in that. The President has the authority. If I can't expect someone to do something good with a stroke of a pen when there's little to no institutional path of obstruction to it, how can I expect them to go to the mat on issues where they're going to have to fight the far-right culture war machine? If you won't even use your office to objectively improve lives with minimal pushback, do you really expect me to believe you'll fight when it matters?
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Nov 3, 2021 19:30
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Epicurius posted:I assume that ideally, you'd like to see the loans forgiven, but (and this is a serious question. This isn't a gotcha or a rhetorical thing) assuming that doesn't happen, when should the deferments expire? What should the trigger be to restart it? The death of Henry Kissinger, he who can never die would be an acceptable trigger event.
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Nov 4, 2021 13:09
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A definite step backwards from Obama. It's a real shame those aid workers got war crimed by a white guy instead of someone that looks more like the victims. Trump must pay for this!
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Nov 4, 2021 14:58
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Conservative democrats are conservatives, hth. Take Rhode Island state Rep Patricia Serpa, an elected Democrat who has consistently voted against abortion rights in Rhode Island despite being an elected Democrat. She is a conservative.
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Nov 4, 2021 15:30
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How are u posted:It's a big tent party. Anti abortion dems are few and far between these days, but they still exist. Except when socialists want in, if recent events in New York are any indication of who's allowed in the tent.
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Nov 4, 2021 15:45
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How are u posted:It's always evolving. Could you elaborate on this a bit? Are you expecting at some point in the future that the democrats' party will welcome socialists with the same open arms it welcomes anti-abortion and pro-austerity conservatives like the Representative from RI I've had the unfortunate displeasure of sharing a holiday dinner table with for years? Do you have some sort of frame of reference on when this, "causality" in which socialists become welcome into the democrats' party we can look to?
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Nov 4, 2021 16:04
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Darkrenown posted:You seem to have real trouble with the idea someone could disagree with one of the tweets you posted. I'm not "debate clubbing" you, I think pulling up a 2009 donation from a man who was a dem at the time and was not yet known to be a "Cheeto benito" as you put it is completely pointless and doesn't invalidate an anti-Trump stance. Wow. Trump was a dem in 2009? drat, if I didn't know any better, I'd think that both parties were mostly ideologically consistent and their actors largely interchangeable and put on some sort of public facing kayfabe to hide their mutual service to the gods of capital. Thank God we have a functioning democracy in America and something like that could never happen!
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Nov 4, 2021 17:01
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How are u posted:There's plenty "the dems" do that I don't defend. The terrible shitshow at the border / refugees / asylum seekers, the imminent respooling of student loan payments, state machine politics, etc etc. HAU I didn't reply to that poster because I believe in hearing things straight from the source. I'd like to restate my ask of you, since it seems it got lost in the derail. Lib and let die posted:Could you elaborate on this a bit? Main Paineframe posted:That's because reconciliation is supposed to be a rare and limited track only available in certain special cases, not the only way for any bill of consequence to pass. The power of the parliamentarian is a side effect of the Dems trying to one-weird-trick their way out of the constraints of our broken legislative system while pretending the system is basically healthy. The parliamentarian wouldn't have veto power on anything if the Dems could either round up enough votes to pass bills through normal order, or change the rules to reduce the number of votes needed to pass things normally (or, more accurately, reduce the number of votes needed to circumvent obstacles like the filibuster). Did the lunch-time talking points just drop or something?
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Nov 4, 2021 17:38
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How are u posted:Democratic Socialists / socialists / left progressives have been getting elected to various offices as Democrats for years now. I don't expect to see that trend reversing. India Walton in Buffalo losing to a write-in campaign doesn't suddenly reverse the whole trend of younger voters being more progressive and wanting more progressive candidates. Sure, they keep getting elected, and then they get bullied into voting for pro-fascist bills that send billions of dollars to the apartheid Israeli government by their establishment betters, so they ultimately end up being part of the machine, using the power we gave them to support, rather than challenge, the status quo. Bernie Sanders, for example, has just as much power as Joe Manchin does, but instead of wielding it to get and get more, he's using it to try and push for the laughably insufficient package that's being offered now. If you're fighting for table scraps when you have the power and agency to demand more, YOU ARE PART OF THE PROBLEM. YOU ARE WHAT MUST BE OPPOSED. Sure, someone might walk into the tent as a socialist, but I've yet to see someone come out the exit door with the same principles.
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Nov 4, 2021 17:50
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Sarcastr0 posted:Never being satisfied is how progressivism has proven effective for the past 100 years - keep moving the goalpost. But don't mix that up with the goalposts never moving. I mean, the goalposts have certainly moved, but it doesn't feel like it's in the direction you're implying. It feels like we don't have a defensive line at all, and our guy is just getting sacked for a loss of yards every play. We've gone from a proposed $10T infrastructure bill to something that's only 10% of what was initially promised, excludes a number of campaign items that were promised by Biden on the campaign trail, and it hasn't even left negotiations within the democrats' party. Yes, the goalposts are moving, and all of a sudden it's 3rd and 39 and you're angry at anyone that's considering free agency after the team's piss-poor performance as a whole.
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Nov 4, 2021 18:10
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Sarcastr0 posted:My timeline was quite clearly decades, yours is like months. Um...economic inequality has been on the rise since the post world-war 2 economy. World War 2 concluded in the 40's, that was more than just a few months ago, bud.
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Nov 4, 2021 18:20
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Sarcastr0 posted:Economic inequality is hardly the only metric of social improvement. Sorry, I just don't buy the idea that an oppressor class that is as racially/ethnically/religiously/gender...ly/sexual identity...ly homogenous to the oppressed class makes the oppression any better. there is value in raising oppressed peoples up to the level of oppression of the "most privileged" of the oppressed class, but this discussion frequently overtakes any discussion of class justice, exactly in the manner in which you've just demonstrated. "how can you say things are bad for everyone, when things got better for Group X?"
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Nov 4, 2021 18:37
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Main Paineframe posted:Well, I typed it into Google search instead of Twitter search, and Reuters says that the Nicaraguan government has arrested "dozens of opposition politicians", including several "presidential hopefuls". Sure, I only did a whopping ten seconds of research into the subject, but that's ten more seconds than you or any of these posters bothered to put into it: You don't even need to leave the google search result page to know why we're sending interlopers to Nicaragua. Why is the US loving around in Nicaraguan elections? Well, 
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Nov 4, 2021 19:16
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Tibalt posted:Man, it's almost like things kept happening in Nicaragua over the last 40 years and didn't freeze in place in 1979. Economic sanctions cause suffering among the most vulnerable portions of a population of the government they're imposed upon. Given the choice, I'd personally rather take a .45 to the back of the skull at the hands of an invading soldier than starve to death at the hand of an invading economic force.
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Nov 4, 2021 19:33
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Bellmaker posted:CNN has been knives out since Afghanistan withdrawal and it’s been very tedious What should the media be? It sounds like a lot of people are expecting fawning coverage with a footnote that some things aren't going as well as planned. For me, I want to see the media holding the people "we" elect accountable, not doing PR work for them. Adversarial coverage is good, and it shouldn't have stopped the moment Trump was voted out. But at this point, I'll settle for them taking the knives out over the price of milk, because they're not going to cover anything of worth that could damage Biden, because doing actual damage to Biden is doing actual damage to Capital. This just reads like "WHY ISN'T SHEP SMITH BEING NICE TO MY PRESIDENT TRUMP!?!?!" but from the other aisle. eta, since it was posted while i was typing: Solkanar512 posted:Why in the hell aren't they shopping at Costco? Isn't this just blaming the victims of a predatory economy? Why is it on average citizens to price map out the various distributors around them and then waste and burn fossil fuels hopping from store to store chasing the prices they can afford? Seriously, what the gently caress? Lib and let die fucked around with this message at 20:01 on Nov 4, 2021 |
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Nov 4, 2021 19:57
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Bellmaker posted:I agree with this in theory but the media has been transparently obvious that they want more conflict abroad, they went from blowing rainbows up Biden’s rear end to full on adversarial the second the withdrawal happened. The only disagreement I might have with this sentiment is the word "transparently" because if it were that transparent, it probably would just be "obvious" to a small, terminally-online slice of politically-active people, but yeah it's absolutely transparent to anyone paying actual attention. But again, I'll take a transactional ally. It's coverage that touches on class issues like material needs, and damages Joe Biden's image as bringing back the economy.
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Nov 4, 2021 20:12
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Solkanar512 posted:Christ, you're loving dishonest. The price of milk hasn't been that loving low in forever. You cut that part out of my quote on purpose. I pointed out that everyone mocking them ignored the fact that they're fostering 6-7 kids. You cut that out as well. You didn't get upset at any of your buddies who were mocking them for drinking too much milk. Regardless of the specificity of the price, you're still shifting responsibility onto the consumer to hunt for a more reasonable price. Don't do that. Address your victim blaming or don't, but I'm not doing the pedantry derail with you. And you're doing this about people that have adopted half a dozen kids! In the very same D&D forum in which I was told if I started taking in homeless people, then I'd be worthy of federal aid lmao!
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Nov 4, 2021 20:32
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Sanguinia posted:I need to get out of this hellhole country. I'm not going to lives the rest of my professional life teaching fascist-mandated propaganda and hurting LGBTQ kids for a paycheck. My wife quit teaching in Broward County a few years back. The hysteria that had been instilled in the 3rd graders she was teaching just absolutely broke her heart. Being forced to teach kids in a moldy, damp trailer where she could simply gently push a hole through the damp wall didn't help either. I can only imagine the poo poo that's going to end up in the curricula. It's too bad she doesn't keep up with many of her former coworkers, I'd be really interested in finding out how much, if any, panic still exists among the Hatian communities with Trump out but Biden kicking Hatians out at record rates up until just last month.
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Nov 4, 2021 20:50
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