UKMT Winterval 2021 - Jesu Redemptor Omicron

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > UKMT Winterval 2021 - Jesu Redemptor Omicron

therattle: Jul 24, 2007; Soiled Meat

Re leftwing antisemitism, my brother is a very committed Zionist. He, for example, believes that the threat to Jews is far greater from the left than the right (I feel pretty strongly otherwise). He brought up this as an example (and while searching I also found the second example, which is a bit more nuanced):

https://forward.com/news/476921/sunrise-dc-zionist-jewish-groups-voting-rights-rally-israel/

https://momentmag.com/star-of-david-pride-flags-unwelcome-at-dc-dyke-march/

To me those are where anti-Zionism starts bleeding into anti-semitism (in part because the Israeli government has enthusiastically promoted the link between Judaism and Israel, but also in part because I think that some left-wing groups can be over-zealous in policing Zionism - for reasons which may be anti-semitic but may not.)

I have been wrestling with why Israel gets such a disproportionate focus. I know some of the explanations (it's an American imperialist proxy, it's colonialist and anti-colonialism is so hot right now etc), and human rights violations by other countries do get protested but not to the same degree. I am just not 100% convinced. There is no active and vigorous BDS campaign against China for what is cultural genocide against the Uighur* and Tibetans (and most other minorities); against Saudi Arabia (we know why); Turkey for its treatment of Kurds, etc. Now I know: i) my responses result from years of conditioning which are hard to shed; and ii) there are causes which become more popular than others for whatever reason, eg apartheid in the 80s, Tibet in the 90s - and right now the focus is on Israel. But I still can't escape the little voice at the back of my mind that part of the amount of focus from the left on Israel, and its sheer vociferousness, is in some cases anti-semitic.

* This is well worth reading

# ¿ Dec 1, 2021 12:30

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# ¿ May 9, 2024 12:39

therattle: Jul 24, 2007; Soiled Meat

Tesseraction posted:

To be honest I think it's mostly because Palestinians were displaced and many of them moved to western countries where they were able to have a more visible presence as a wronged party. Like I first learned about I/P because a close family friend was having trouble because when his kids were born they kept trying to put the father's place of birth as "Israel" on the birth certificate and he kept saying no, he was born in Palestine, and it was only after a very emotional argument that they correctly put his place of birth.

Which was also a dumb argument just because the Soviet Union dissolved doesn't mean you weren't born in the e.g. Latvian SSR.

That makes sense, thanks.

Bobby Deluxe posted:

China is also turning into a huge global market that nobody wants to piss off. They're also investing massively in shareholder stakes in media companies that they can't otherwise influence by witholding access to their markets, which is why given the choice of mentioning Tianemen Square or getting money, most companies will keep quiet.

multijoe posted:

You also don't get called a sinophobe by the entire media and political establishment for criticising China whilst your country continues to provide material economic and military support to their ethnic cleansing

Like if someone's on the fence on crossing over from anti-zionism to anti-semitism don't you think the entire Labour Party front bench being members of LFI and Keir Starmer saying he wants to hug and kiss Israel very much and if anything they're not defending their colonies hard enough from the beastly natives don't you think that's just going to pushing them over the edge into thinking (((something)))'s going on there

I see that. But if you look at the post I quoted above there is also something going on with China that doesn't get the same focus.

Borrovan posted:

I absolutely agree that the disproportionate focus on Israel is often antisemitic (but also often isn't - people often have legitimate personal reasons for really caring about one particular cause). But:-

In the first link, was anyone turning up with Turkish or Chinese national symbols? In the second, were any explicitly pro-Turkish or pro-Chinese groups present? To take an example closer to home, there aren't parliamentary groups called Labour Friends of Turkey, China, Saudi Arabia or whomever explicitly lobbying for the Labour Party to foster closer connections with those states. Considering a large part of what LFI does is to deliberately conflate anti-Zionism with antisemitism, of course it's going to generate more pushback, and of course it's going to generate more attention because LFI deliberately want it to.

The irony is that some of that pushback & some of that attention is going to lead some people in an antisemitic direction & also create a smokescreen for "wilful" antisemites to say "nuh uh I'm just an antizionist". But I don't think (iirc overwhelmingly non-Jewish) LFI give a gently caress about that.

(incidentally I'm also not sure it's possible to be a committed Zionist and not think that the greatest threat to Jewish people comes from the left, since the belief that only Zionism can protect the Jewish people is kind of intrinsic to it & the left absolutely is a bigger threat to Zionism, since the right loving love ethnonationalism & also all the Jews leaving)

With respect to the two links above, I don't think people were turning up with Israeli flags but with Stars of David, which are primarily a religious and not a nationalist symbol. I don't know if Chinese or Turkish groups were included or excluded. Interestingly, there does appear to be a Labour friends of Turkey group, but neither it not LFI are listed on the Labour Friends page...
https://labour.org.uk/people/labour-friends-of-group/current-labour-friends-of-groups/
I do agree with your point about LFI conflating anti-semitism and anti-Zionism, although I also think that there can be different good-faith perspectives on whether anti0-Zionism is antisemitic or not.
And yeah, the whole commingling of the two issues does get exploited, by both sides, I think.
I also agree with your last point.

Anyway, thank you all. It's good to have a bit of a sanity check. It is hard to know how much of my reaction is an emotive response based on conditioning and how much a somewhat accurate perception of things.

# ¿ Dec 1, 2021 13:52

therattle: Jul 24, 2007; Soiled Meat

ThomasPaine posted:

Your brother sounds like he's a bit silly. The reason Israel gets specific attention in the West is not because of anti-semitism* but because it is the only country in the world that is 1) a de-facto (and increasingly de jure) race state, 2) actively pursuing apartheid policies towards an ethnic minority population that it considers, at best, to have effectively zero equal rights within its borders, and at worst to be outright subhuman, and 3) is a colonial project with its roots firmly in euro-american imperialism, which our countries directly enable and benefit from. Honestly, the view we get of Israel is, if anything, extremely sanitised, and I'm not just talking about the gratuitous clips you see of war crimes being committed. It's somehow even more disturbing to see things like mass rallies on prestigious university campuses, with huge numbers of the country's most educated and (supposedly) thoughtful people waving Israeli flags and literally calling for the mass expulsion and/or murder of Arabs.

Yes, other countries are also doing bad things, but I can't think of any other nation-state that is so self-consciously built on weird race science that, ironically enough, you'd think we'd have put on ice after the second world war. Even the US pays lip service to the rhetoric of racial equality, however hollow it might be. What Turkey is doing in Kurdistan and what China is doing in Xinjiang are both aggressively authoritarian responses to perceived separatist threats. The main opposition ideologies to central government (national liberation PKK stuff in Turkey, Islamic radicalism in Xinjiang) lead to the conflict developing a racialised subtext, for sure, and suppressive policies affect ethnic minorities disproportionately as a result, which obviously can potentially spiral in very unfortunate ways. However, neither conflict originates in the genuine ideological belief that X ethnic group is, by definition, inferior at an existential level.

* Though I accept that there are small pockets of anti-semitism, explicit and otherwise, on the left. You do see for example some very sus conflation between 'Israeli' and 'Jewish' interests from some of the more tin-foil hat lefties, though ofc this is deliberately encouraged by the former to implicitly undermine criticism and I genuinely do believe a significant portion of the people who do this are just lazy dumbasses who don't think sufficiently before they speak rather than active racists.

Sorry, saw this after I wrote my previous post.

I take your point 1. Point 2 applies to ethnic minorities within a number of countries. point 3 also does to a degree in that China for example is a colonial project but not rooted in western imperialism (and which we benefit from).

With regard to Turkey, China etc I think that to separate the separatist threat and the racial subtext is not right, and that the racist subtext (or text) has been present for a very long time. in Xinjiang I think it can be argued that state repression has fuelled conflict far more effectively than any separatist movements did, and that there is widespread Han prejudice against Uighur. I also believe that there is a long history of Turkish racial discrimination against Kurds.

I also think that you are overstating the degree to which the conflation of Israel and Judaism among far-left tinfoil hats is encouraged.

I would like to see you argue with regard to other forms of racism that it's just lazy dumbasses who don't think sufficiently rather than active racists.

# ¿ Dec 1, 2021 14:30

therattle: Jul 24, 2007; Soiled Meat

Borrovan posted:

I think it's very hard to engage in any good faith debate on the topic, because of how many people there are deliberately poisoning the debate.

There is a tendency on the left to automatically assume that anyone saying anti-Zionism is antisemitic is acting in bad faith though, which is kind of annoying imo since it just isn't true. Lots of Jews sincerely believe that the only way to protect the Jewish people from *gestures at recorded history* is a Jewish state, meaning that opposing Zionism is opposing the safety of the Jewish people. But frankly it's hard to engage in good faith debate with those people anyway, since why would they want to debate with people they regard as racist against them (& in any event it's essentially an emotional argument, which you pretty much can't debate anyway).

That's really true, completely agree.

Bobby Deluxe posted:

I think my point (or at least part of my intended point) was that China's economic power is deliberately leveraged to supress a lot of criticism of the government. There's not the same economic fear of criticising the Israeli government and losing access to their markets / investors as there is of losing out on Chinese money.

Even journalists have to be careful because if their paper / station is publicly traded, the owners might get a quiet word in their ear if the article is too critical.

Yes, I also agree with that. But it's also a "conspiracy"of sorts, just of a different kind.

Anyway, I think that's enough for now. Thanks for engaging with this.

# ¿ Dec 1, 2021 14:34

therattle: Jul 24, 2007; Soiled Meat

Mugsbaloney posted:

Anyone got a link to Uighur stuff that isn't 2 degrees of Kevin bacon from Adrian Zenz?

Read this. The New Yorker may be liberal but its fact checking is second to none. It�s a really terrifying article.

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2021/04/12/surviving-the-crackdown-in-xinjiang

# ¿ Dec 2, 2021 17:20

therattle: Jul 24, 2007; Soiled Meat

Whoops, didn't know who Zenz was or that they were quoted in that NYer article. Nonetheless there is some first-hand experience and plenty of other sources that are quoted there; it's not like the piece hinges on the Zenz allegations.

There is this in Al Jazeera, which relies hwavily on an Australian report, albeit one that has scraped public Chinese data

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/10/20/xinjiang-aspi-report-uighurs

And I don't know if Human Rights Watch is considered too Western a source.
https://www.hrw.org/report/2019/05/01/chinas-algorithms-repression/reverse-engineering-xinjiang-police-mass

therattle fucked around with this message at 11:40 on Dec 3, 2021

# ¿ Dec 3, 2021 11:21

therattle: Jul 24, 2007; Soiled Meat

Jakabite posted:

I�m not sure if this will end up going through - I can imagine the prison service kicking off big time if they�re suddenly having to deal with heroin withdrawals on a mass scale

That's a good point. I was quite (pleasantly) surprised to see Border Force staff saying they'd refuse to do pushbacks. Maybe Prison Service staff will do the same. This is an even worse policy than depriving prisoners of books.

# ¿ Dec 3, 2021 12:09

therattle: Jul 24, 2007; Soiled Meat

Borrovan posted:

e: ^^^ my partner's done a whole bunch of research into the psychology of prison wardens that can be summarised as "Basically They're Just Cunts", wishful thinking imo

imo this is one of those situations where writing off sources as being "too Western" just leads to tankiedom. Very few sources beneath state-level actors even have the means to investigate, and state-level actors have such a vested interest in the issue that they're pretty much gonna dominate the discourse. But what's the alternative, trusting the Chinese state? The key is to recognise the inherent bias in every source, look at the methodology &c, & accept that there is going to be some uncertainty. There's a bunch of iirc publicly accessible information like satellite imagery & first-hand accounts to show that there is definitely a bunch of heinous poo poo going on, but I don't think much more than that can be said with certainty.

I totally agree with that (and with the assessment of prison officers. I have always wondered who the hell becomes one, unless people are just desperate for work) . But I wasn't the one asking for non-Western sources. That's why I mentioned first-0hand accounts in the NYer piece and the report referred to in the ALJ article which was based on scraping publicly-available Chinese sources.

Cookie Cutter posted:

The same Human Rights Watch that's run by a former federal prosecutor and pushes for US sanctions against Nicaragua and Venezuela and supported the far-right coup in Bolivia, you mean?

I guess so. it appears that they have since acknowledged that there was a coup in Bolivia. Even if you think they are biased that doesn't automatically disqualify their reporting. It just means it should be taken with a pinch of salt. But if they are so untrustworthy and biased I suppose you therefore also discount their characterisation of Israel's policies towards Palestinians as apartheid?

Guavanaut posted:

I read an interesting thing last month about the false logic of 'risk compensation' and how it provided an ideal argument to the reflexively anti-everything brigade for everything from "I don't want to wear a seatbelt" in the 70s to "I don't want to wear a mask" last year, and how that ties into the reactionary mindset of "actually welfare increases poverty because" and "actually birth control increases unwanted pregnancy" and so on, and you can see very similar bad arguments in this plan.

Very similar in that they all start with "but I don't like..." and work backwards, but also because as in many of those cases the thing they don't actually like is other people and society.

57mm, so 2¼"

That's a loving 6 pounder or something

That's a very interesting article, thanks.

And that shell gives a new meaning to explosive orgasm.

therattle fucked around with this message at 12:53 on Dec 3, 2021

# ¿ Dec 3, 2021 12:47

therattle: Jul 24, 2007; Soiled Meat

domhal posted:

#freeKeir

Oh, that reminds me, my parents in South Africa recently asked me what I thought about Keith Starmer.

# ¿ Dec 3, 2021 12:53

therattle: Jul 24, 2007; Soiled Meat

Cookie Cutter posted:

You can make whatever assumptions you like about what I believe, but if that's how you choose to engage then don't expect a reply.

Fair enough; I was a bit pissy. In that case, what is your take on their assessment of the Uighur situation, since that is the subject at hand? Or are they simply an unreliable source, in your view? if so, I don't know how one can make any kind of assessment of what is going on.

Borrovan posted:

My partner's interviewed a lot of them, and has met nice ones, who without exception have been (a)new hires, (b)who were desperate for work, and (c)absolutely miserable in their jobs, so (d)either about to quit or working out their notice.

The rest of them are just petty vindictive tyrants, the kind of people who just want to push people around & feel superior to them. The ones in charge are the worst, there's a whole culture of rewarding people who go the extra mile in arbitrarily making life lovely for the prisoners. Can't go into any detail as there's very few people with her exact research interests, but trust me it's bad, especially wrt treatment of vulnerable prisoners.

It's a bit like the whole self-correcting corollary to ACAB, that in the unlikely event of a good person accidentally becoming a police they either stop being a police or stop being a good person.

Unfortunately this is not at all surprising.

# ¿ Dec 3, 2021 13:07

therattle: Jul 24, 2007; Soiled Meat

ThomasPaine posted:

I think the reason people get so defensive on this subject is that if feels like 95% of the time everyone has clearly made up their own mind already and is just trying to spin whatever new 'evidence' comes out to suit their own ends. One side thinks criticising sources that have almost all been produced by rabidly anti-communist US think tanks and insane weirdos like Zenz makes you a genocide apologist, the other thinks saying 'oh hey china might be doing a bad thing' makes you a CIA-funded psyop. It's a pointless argument honestly because it's just people yelling at each other and, weirdly enough, is very very rarely actually about the welfare of Uyghurs. It's pure ideological grandstanding.

As far as I'm concerned, this is the sequence of events:

1. China is an authoritarian country doing authoritarian country things
2. Chinese policy is disproportionately affecting Uyghur Muslims, because they as a group have become associated with separatist politics
3. There is a broad cultural trend of Han chauvinism which means most people don't much care about 2
4. Some people speak out about 1, China responds by doing more of 1, because 1.
5. The USA, which could not give a drat about 2 but very much wants to cultivate hostility towards China senses an opportunity to manipulate popular opinion.
6. US think-tanks produce research that uses selective evidence to massively exaggerate the extent of the issue.
7. This encourages the anti-china crowd to go balls to the wall, social media is filled with disturbing footage and photographs allegedly from Xinjiang. Some of this is real, some of it trivial to discredit.
8. 4 find 6 very receptive to their genuine stories about 1, are happy someone is listening.
9. 6 discovers that many of 4 don't much like China either, and are more than happy to co-operate, while others are so desperate to be heard that they are easy to manipulate into saying whatever the interviewer leads them to.
10. 6 is now comfortable claiming that China is now literally doing a Holocaust, using a variety of 'evidence' from 4 and 7 to back up this conclusion. Some of their sources are legit, many are not, or are highly exaggerated - often because 6 deliberately manufactured the most highly inflammatory testimonies they could.
11. The Western media and institutions eat up 10 because 6 are highly influential, and it becomes an accepted truth within some international organisations. Going against it is perceived as outright genocide denial, dissuading much mainstream criticism and reinforcing the story.
12. Some people realise that certain pieces of evidence and testimony are completely full of holes.
13. Most people steer well clear because 6 is now a self-evident truth and they don't want to be ostracised.
14. Tankies, being no strangers to ostracism, take this to mean that the whole thing is a fabrication and insist China is a utopia among other insane tankie things.
15. This actually benefits the the narrative of 10, because the only people rejecting the conclusion are utter weirdoes.
16. China also uses 12 to cover itself, claiming that 10 is bullshit (probably correct), and that following on from that 1, 2, and 3 are also bullshit (probably very much incorrect).
17. 16 being a dumb claim, Western institutions take it as further proof of 10.
18. We are stuck in a stupid rut where there are basically no good faith actors whatsover.

Hey, maybe years down the line I'll have my own Noam Chomsky moment, but right now I see no reason to just swallow what the PR wing of a country known for pulling this poo poo time and time again when they want to manufacture consent to intervene in foreign affairs tells me wholesale.

That�s a great analysis, although I think there is now a pretty large and incontrovertible body of evidence that China is doing a lot of awful stuff in Xinjiang. And I don�t think that the US is planning an invasion of China anytime soon.

# ¿ Dec 3, 2021 21:07

therattle: Jul 24, 2007; Soiled Meat

ThomasPaine posted:

I don't think anyone but the most terminally online tankie is refuting the idea that China is getting up to some shady stuff in Xinjiang. That can be true at the same time as 'things are being deliberately exaggerated by Western interests to manufacture consent'.

Intervention doesn't have to take the form of an outright military invasion. There is clearly an ongoing effort to drum up hostility to China and isolate it on the international stage.

No argument from me on any of that.

# ¿ Dec 3, 2021 22:05

therattle: Jul 24, 2007; Soiled Meat

sebzilla posted:

Quick inflation/maths question. I'm trying to work out real-terms wages trends since 2012 for my union ahead of pay negotiations next year, and want to make sure I'm not loving it up.

Basically my approach is taking the historic CPI rates for each year, and multiplying them together to get a "since 2012" adjustment factor.

So, for example, multiplying all the rates from 2012 to 2020 together makes around 20% (thanks, compound growth) which I'd then divide the 2021 salary by to account for all the inflation since 2012. So �43,153 in 2021 pounds is worth about �35,907 in 2012 pounds, meaning someone who's had that "raise" is actually worse off in real terms than they were on their salary of �37,960 back in 2012.

Does that make sense or am I making some horrible error?

Sounds right but how exactly do you get from 43154 to 35907?

# ¿ Dec 6, 2021 13:00

therattle: Jul 24, 2007; Soiled Meat

Borrovan posted:

Assuming it's not exactly 20%, 43154/1.2 looks about right

Looks right to me seb

About right, yep, but just checking.

# ¿ Dec 6, 2021 13:14

therattle: Jul 24, 2007; Soiled Meat

Guavanaut posted:

I was just thinking that the only positive thing about the divine right of kings was that they were expected to prove it and if some bear or wolf got them while they were out hunting that was basically the divine removing that right.

Then they got all lazy with big curly wigs and lapdogs and fancy suits and yet still claimed to be divine and got their head cut off and that was that.

That sounds like history according to Philomena Cunk

# ¿ Dec 7, 2021 17:53

therattle: Jul 24, 2007; Soiled Meat

It's worth appealing the congestion charge. it costs you nothing and they can actually be quite reasonable sometimes.

Re Carrie, she is a pretty horrible person in her own right who has chosen with eyes wide open to associate with Boris & Co . She put herself in that position, and in the public eye: she is fair game.

The Xmas party being the thing that possibly brings Johnson down is a bit like Al Capone ultimately being jailed for tax evasion.

# ¿ Dec 9, 2021 13:43

therattle: Jul 24, 2007; Soiled Meat

Answers Me posted:

Aside from just generally being a bit poo poo, I�m guessing a lot of Labour people are being sheepish about calling for Johnson�s head because they went to a shindig of their own that the tabloids are saving for a rainy day.

I�ve seen a lot of that but Labour and KS have persistently refused to call for resignations on a number of matters. It is more likely (to me) that they are just being lily-livered, rather than compromised themselves.

# ¿ Dec 10, 2021 17:17

therattle: Jul 24, 2007; Soiled Meat

Noxville posted:

I doubt Keith even gets invited to parties tbqh

Exactly!

# ¿ Dec 10, 2021 17:27

therattle: Jul 24, 2007; Soiled Meat

Just Another Lurker posted:

Think i will try making paneer next week, fancy a change.

Do, it�s easy and very satisfying.

# ¿ Dec 11, 2021 16:50

therattle: Jul 24, 2007; Soiled Meat

fuctifino posted:

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/510-million-to-crackdown-on-benefits-fraudsters

You can be sure there will be no such checking of dodgy PPE contracts

This would generate so much more govt revenue if used to give HMRC more people and expertise to target tax evasion.

# ¿ Dec 13, 2021 13:41

therattle: Jul 24, 2007; Soiled Meat

peanut- posted:

An acquaintance of mine has been in an (NHS) hospital for two weeks now while they fix the complete gently caress-up a private hospital made of his gall bladder removal.

It's cool that the privatised side of our health system gets to just wash its hands of all its mistakes and difficult treatments and let the NHS deal with it.

You could say it is�galling.

It does suck. I was wondering about making private hospitals pay for post-op NHS care if needed but it would just incentivise them to leave anything remotely tricky to the NHS.

# ¿ Dec 14, 2021 14:44

therattle: Jul 24, 2007; Soiled Meat

Guavanaut posted:

So called not in the familiar diminutive sense, but because his first show will be

We just need to start spreading the rumour on right wing sites that hot bull�s piss provides immunity from COVID.

# ¿ Dec 14, 2021 17:15

therattle: Jul 24, 2007; Soiled Meat

^^^ yeah

Endjinneer posted:

This thing has been an interesting example of how marginalised group members suffer from undue prominence when in groups that are not equally representative and (usually) have to adhere to higher standards of behaviour than the rest of the group. Not trying to excuse the wrong that he's done as an individual, but I've seen only one other person from the photo publicly identified so far. The collective memory of this is going to be that Shaun Bailey broke the rules, not "here are the 50 people including a donor (why is a donor at a staff party?), and these are their roles in your government". While the rest of them crawl back into the woodwork, it's likely that he'll suffer more.

I don't think any of the other attendees are instantly recognisable as London mayoral candidates. The only other person I've seen IDed is Nick Candy. I am guessing none of the others are high-profile at all.

# ¿ Dec 15, 2021 22:00

therattle: Jul 24, 2007; Soiled Meat

Guavanaut posted:

Laurence Fox lost like far more of a loving idiot.

God, that was satisfying.

# ¿ Dec 15, 2021 22:13

therattle: Jul 24, 2007; Soiled Meat

My understanding (limited, admittedly) of the UK-Ireland treaty of (I think) 1957 is that UK and Irish citizens have the right to be treated as if they were citizens of the other country, if residing there*. This includes the right to reside. So if one wants to live in Ireland I don't think anything is stopping one.

*For example, as an Irish citizen but UK resident I get to vote in UK elections.

# ¿ Dec 16, 2021 12:59

therattle: Jul 24, 2007; Soiled Meat

Pablo Bluth posted:

Can this be used to earn Irish citizenship for those that don't have Irish parents/grandparents, by sticking around long enough to earn it by naturalisation?

I have no idea but probably.

# ¿ Dec 16, 2021 14:48

therattle: Jul 24, 2007; Soiled Meat

WhatEvil posted:

Absolutely no need to feel ashamed or anything mate. I think you were being realistic but I can understand that being too negative ITT (even if it's based on reasonable assumptions) can make some people anxious. I sometimes have to dial it back a bit in terms of being too doompilled re: covid and climate change stuff.

Edit:

Seen some people have been making cheese. I made ricotta recently, because I forgot to buy any and I'd already started cooking an already fairly involved meal so thought "gently caress it, I have cream and milk and citric acid, I'll make some". Was fun, and turned out well. Also, if you do make cheese, save the whey liquid and use it in soup - adds a nice, slightly tangy flavour (it's used by lots of commercial soup makers including Campbell's in some of their recipes).

You can also use whey in bread.

# ¿ Dec 16, 2021 20:33

therattle: Jul 24, 2007; Soiled Meat

JeremoudCorbynejad posted:

I dunno why anyone's surprised he got 14 years for trying to torch the police. What did you expect to happen??

Totally agree. That said, I�m not sure that people are surprised as much as thinking that it�s an excessive sentence nonetheless.

# ¿ Dec 18, 2021 11:28

therattle: Jul 24, 2007; Soiled Meat

Red Oktober posted:

It�s around �45k/year here in the UK.

There�s a bit of a drive in the prisions reform space to try and get this number out more - we think that a lot of people would at least reconsider their LOCK �EM UP stances if they realised how much it cost.

You just know that some frothing Daily Mail readers will use that as justification for the death penalty coming back.

# ¿ Dec 18, 2021 11:38

therattle: Jul 24, 2007; Soiled Meat

ThomasPaine posted:

Makes me lol a bit every time I remember that in America there actually is this whole collectively accepted agreement in mainstream discourse that any crime done to a cop is automatically considered ten times more heinous than one done to anyone else. Obviously that's very useful PR for maintaining the state monopoly on violence but I like how it's also basically founded on the caricature of police being these kindly, put-upon everyday heroes who routinely risk their lives to protect the good people of the USA from the legions of criminals who would otherwise tear them to pieces, rather than, you know, a bunch of reactionary authoritarians with very little oversight responsible who are way more dangerous than most of the people they detain/shoot.* I'm glad we don't have quite that level of pathetic hero worship over here.

* God the thin blue line stuff is so interesting though. I guess you can trace the idea all the way back to Leviathan at least but it feels like such a great example of class tension in stagnating societies, and particularly of anxieties about anarchy and lawlessness. Middle America really does believe that there are a horde of psychos at the gates ready to run amok with chainsaws the second state power dwindles. You see it in so much media - look at stuff like the purge. I mean sure, if all crime were legalised tomorrow you'd probably have a few killings between people who already had grudges, but who the hell actually believes we'd all go full mike myers on each other? Humans don't generally have much interest in loving each other up just for the sake of it. What does it say about you that you think they do?

I�ve thought about this a bit before, and I think it�s because America is founded on blood, slavery and genocide. The people with money there know at some deep level that they obtained it at the expense of others and the are terrified that those others (often racialised, as those were/are the groups that were most exploited) are going to come for what�s theirs.

Edit: I wonder if something similar is at play with the gammon fear of immigrants, particularly brown ones.

# ¿ Dec 18, 2021 13:02

therattle: Jul 24, 2007; Soiled Meat

kingturnip posted:

I think that if the filth are out and about kicking, bludgeoning and horse-charging protesters, the protesters have a right to fight back.
If for no other reason than that PC Andy McRoidrage isn't explaining what crime he's protecting people from as he attempts to smash someone's skull in. Or when those TSG cunts cover up their ID numbers - at that point, you're not being suppressed by a police officer; you're getting assaulted by some psychotic apeman looking to see how much blood he can get on his riot shield.

If the police want to be protected by the law as they carry out their duties, they should actually attempt to follow the law as they carry them out.
If not, they're fair game.

In our eyes, sure, but the courts take a different view (unsurprisingly).

# ¿ Dec 18, 2021 13:26

therattle: Jul 24, 2007; Soiled Meat

smellmycheese posted:

https://twitter.com/jacob_rees_mogg/status/1472256250650009606?s=21

That�s quite a subtle knife in the back now that Brexit is turning out to be about as poo poo as we thought it would.

# ¿ Dec 18, 2021 23:14

therattle: Jul 24, 2007; Soiled Meat

Endjinneer posted:

I'd read it as a desperate attempt to crawl back into party favour again after the second jobs thing, but you're right it has a lot of the "friends, romans, countrymen" about it.
A new challenger has entered the leadership competition.

Yours is an equally valid take. Who can know?

# ¿ Dec 18, 2021 23:38

therattle: Jul 24, 2007; Soiled Meat

Jaeluni Asjil posted:

Maybe bozo is going to resign tomorrow morning?

Just landed on the Graun about 15 mins ago:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/dec/19/boris-johnson-and-staff-pictured-with-wine-in-downing-street-garden-in-may-2020

The people all standing around casually with drinks and no files or papers are clearly working, I don�t see what the issue is.

# ¿ Dec 19, 2021 20:10

therattle: Jul 24, 2007; Soiled Meat

Jaeluni Asjil posted:

Well obviously, as they have had their 5G chips inserted, they don't need files and papers, or indeed computers to do work. They just wirelessly communicate from head to head over the 5G.

Wrong! This was pre-vaccine.

# ¿ Dec 19, 2021 20:21

therattle: Jul 24, 2007; Soiled Meat

There�s a Jerusalem fartichoke shortage? We were just talking about getting some.

If you eat them with potatoes they aren�t quite as flatulating.

# ¿ Dec 20, 2021 14:08

therattle: Jul 24, 2007; Soiled Meat

Failed Imagineer posted:

Kale is good when you marinade it in a lil soy sauce/tamari (actually I prefer to use Trader Joe's Soyaki sauce or something similar), and then bang em into the air-fryer until they're a lil crispy. God tier zero-cal snack

We just sensuously massage kale with oil then roast it in a low oven until crispy. Delicious.

ROAST your sprouts (and broccoli and cauliflower). Roasting is best.

# ¿ Dec 20, 2021 18:55

therattle: Jul 24, 2007; Soiled Meat

Jedit posted:

To be fair, he is a better choice for PM than Boris. In the same way that Biden was a better choice for President than Trump. There are very few people who belong less in the position than either of them, but in both cases one of them is/was the incumbent.

Yeah. Better PM than Boris is hardly a high bar to clear.

# ¿ Dec 22, 2021 12:38

therattle: Jul 24, 2007; Soiled Meat

Barry Foster posted:

Agreed.

Much heartened by LC and Skulker's accounts, though. Good on that bus driver. Good on you, Skulker.

Totally. If someone deliberately coughed in m y face I would hit them. (I say that but I would probably be too scared, but VERY tempted).

The local shops have been pretty good about masking. Our local Tesco is usually pretty bad for masking but when I was there a couple of days ago it looked like about 99% mask-wearing, which was a pleasant surprise.

# ¿ Dec 23, 2021 18:23

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# ¿ May 9, 2024 12:39

therattle: Jul 24, 2007; Soiled Meat

RockyB posted:

It's Christmas, not April fools.

I know, but I think I�d cream myself if Johnson lost his seat.

# ¿ Dec 25, 2021 21:07

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > UKMT Winterval 2021 - Jesu Redemptor Omicron

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