December 2021 CE: WTF, FL?

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Internet VFW > December 2021 CE: WTF, FL?

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mlmp08: Jul 11, 2004; Prepare for my priapic projectile's exalted penetration; Nap Ghost

McNally posted:

gdi do you know how loving busy I am?

Post link? Or find a neat musket fact? McNally has decent priorities.

# ¿ Dec 1, 2021 19:24

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ¿ May 13, 2024 23:17

mlmp08: Jul 11, 2004; Prepare for my priapic projectile's exalted penetration; Nap Ghost

Taking GG seriously is folly, but this dude is so loving funny in how hard and when he will go to bat for his buddies.

https://twitter.com/elmeiloi/status/1466104758620631046?s=21

# ¿ Dec 1, 2021 20:31

mlmp08: Jul 11, 2004; Prepare for my priapic projectile's exalted penetration; Nap Ghost

Hey, Tubi has some good classic movies!

# ¿ Dec 1, 2021 22:48

mlmp08: Jul 11, 2004; Prepare for my priapic projectile's exalted penetration; Nap Ghost

Itchy_Grundle posted:

If you can afford a gun and ammunition, you can afford to buy what you need to lock it up properly. The dad needs to answer for this poo poo.

It's not that hard--Lock up your loving guns.

There is a group of gun owners who will accuse you of extreme classism over this take.

I fall under saying lock up your guns, but no one expects you to have a $10,000 vault safe. At least make a kid deliberately break open a locked metal cabinet to access a gun.

# ¿ Dec 2, 2021 16:13

mlmp08: Jul 11, 2004; Prepare for my priapic projectile's exalted penetration; Nap Ghost

I have a pretty modest gun collection, and the cost of my locking metal cabinet is about 5% the cost of all of the items inside it, and that doesn't include some gun paraphernalia I don't bother to lock up like spare magazines, target equipment, range bags, etc. This also ignores 100% of ammo costs, which has been a LOT over the years.

I see it as the bare minimum responsible safety item to own. And while a locked pistol cabinet can literally be carried out of the house by a burglar to be opened later, it still deters a young kid and makes a teen really have to commit to "I am breaking into this cabinet now." If you own literally one cheap firearm, then yeah, the cabinet might be 30-50% the cost of your gun ownership, but that's the way it works...

# ¿ Dec 2, 2021 16:58

mlmp08: Jul 11, 2004; Prepare for my priapic projectile's exalted penetration; Nap Ghost

That Works posted:

Case in point when I was a quite poor graduate student I wanted to buy a cheap-rear end .22 rifle but lived in a city with really strict gun control laws. The rifle I wanted could have easily been bought at the time for $200.
So, I look into buying it and there is a state-mandated firearms course for basic ownership. That's $100 and can only be done M-F 9 to 5. So, I have to spend $100 and take off work. Also, you have to travel about 15 miles outside of the city to the nearest place doing the classes and its not on any transit line, so throw in another $30 for an Uber / cab there and back plus the lost afternoon of work.

Ok so then I have to take that certificate and then put in a permit application. The city states that the applications take 10-14 days to process. The internet states that the average process time is 4-6 months. So, 6 months later it gets processed and THEN I can make an appointment with the city police to get an interview and background check. This is another $100 fee and must be attended in person, again M-F 9-5 only, so another half day of work off minimum and the nearest appointment is 3 months away.

So now before even being approved to buy a gun (the criteria for approval is up to the police officers discretion) I had waited 9 months, spent $230 and had to take at least 1 day off of work. Now this was only just for a rifle. If I wanted a pistol it's a mandatory shooting test at the police range (booking appointments 6 months in advance) for a $250 fee. So for a pistol I'm looking at almost $500 and a 1 to 1.5 year wait.

So, then lets say the local legislature wants to mandate safe storage and decides that you need at minimum a storage device that costs another $100.

This is a post that points out the challenges of dealing with expensive permits, wait times, and law enforcment interview and signoffs in a May Issue area. Yeah, those sound bad, but it's a distraction from what we were talking about : locking guns in a security cabinet.

I don't think when the average poster says they think guns should be locked in a cabinet, that implies that they agree you should have to go do an in-person interview with a cop and wait 6+ months to buy a gun.

# ¿ Dec 2, 2021 17:29

mlmp08: Jul 11, 2004; Prepare for my priapic projectile's exalted penetration; Nap Ghost

That Works posted:

I went through the whole story as an example of incrementalism because its almost never a "here's a minimum no nonsense single policy" when it comes to firearm laws and as soon as one requirement is made / given then you're likely to keep getting more until it does become unaffordable (feature not bug imo).

You responded to people saying that security cabinets are a key safety feature by talking about a totally different topic: May Issue, wait periods, law enforcement interviews, and permitting.

# ¿ Dec 2, 2021 18:24

mlmp08: Jul 11, 2004; Prepare for my priapic projectile's exalted penetration; Nap Ghost

COINCEL PRO posted:

Is it a fallacy when multiple local governments already have and continue to ratchet up prohibitions and fees on firearm ownership?

One of the ways to use a logical fallacy is to try to find an exception to claim that this proves that the logical fallacy is not fallacious. So find a place that incrementally increased laws to use slippery slope. Find an authoritative figure who agrees with you and was right once and then use that to say we should argue from authority. etc.

Safe storage has a "good" problem to have in the US reference enforcement: the 4A. Most places have little or no safe storage law. Among those that do, for private owners (not FFLs), there is zero requirement that I'm aware* of to let cops come inspect your domicile. Does that make it hard to enforce the law? Sure, but it's hard to enforce a lot of laws due to the 4A and 5A, which is a good problem for Americans to have.

Texas has a safe storage law, as an example, though not strict at all. The safe storage law only applies to access to kids 17 and under, absolves the owner of a crime if the kid committed a crime to get the gun (breaking and entering, for example), or if the kid gains access in defense of home/self/others (kid smashes through a door to fend off an attacker). The Texas law also only applies if the firearm is "readily dischargeable," which means with ammo loaded. So an unloaded gun can still be just be left out, as long as the ammunition is all of 1 inch away from the gun. A gun may be stored loaded if it is "secure" as defined in the law from a child.

Is Texas deterring a terrorist mastermind with this? Hell no, but they are telling parents that leaving a loaded gun in reach of a minor is a Class C misdemeanor if the minor gains access to the weapon, and it becomes Class A if the minor then fires a shot and injures/kills someone, aside from lawful defense.

*maybe some city or locale in the USA exists where this is not the case, but I've never heard of it.

mlmp08 fucked around with this message at 19:19 on Dec 2, 2021

# ¿ Dec 2, 2021 19:16

mlmp08: Jul 11, 2004; Prepare for my priapic projectile's exalted penetration; Nap Ghost

Loucks posted:

It's good in that more vaccinated/boosted people is definitely desireable, but as far as I've seen all the official guidance has been "get boosted!" and not "wear an effective mask!" (i.e., N95 or better). The vaccines are very good, but but still demonstrably leaky. One would think that facing a new variant with as yet unknown properties public health officials doing their jobs would recommend increased protective measures.

The CDC director points to masks as the single most effective thing a person can do to prevent initial infection. In a 2-stage approach, you try to prevent infection (multiple means, with masks being top-tier) and then you try to mitigate impact if infected (vaccines).
https://twitter.com/CDCDirector/status/1456645731691925518?s=20

The CDC has pointed out that reopening schools with a mask mandate is several times safer than reopening schools with leaving masking up to individuals:
https://twitter.com/DeeGilhawley/status/1466171177047572485?s=20

https://twitter.com/handgunYoga/status/1465702970159349763?s=20

The federal facilities I work in require masks across the board, regardless of vaccination status. Local rules are more lower case liberal.

The CDC messaging has not been great throughout this pandemic. And the CDC leadership are getting pummeled from the right for pitching the idea that vaccines could potentially lead to less mask requirements. And they've done navel-gazing about whether people won't bother to get vaccinated if they're told to mask anyway, and blah blah, they should just tell everyone to do all of the above!

But yes, the CDC recommends masks. Pretty unequivocally.

# ¿ Dec 2, 2021 20:18

mlmp08: Jul 11, 2004; Prepare for my priapic projectile's exalted penetration; Nap Ghost

edit: nevermind!

# ¿ Dec 2, 2021 20:39

mlmp08: Jul 11, 2004; Prepare for my priapic projectile's exalted penetration; Nap Ghost

Proud Christian Mom posted:

https://twitter.com/dccc/status/1466494036630544394?t=M33u-Ui7F99qbc_ZPM04Cw&s=19

2022 messaging going well

Why the gently caress would the DNC deliberately embrace the idea that the president has a �gas prices� lever? Prices fluctuate, vary a lot locally, and they aren�t high compared to the last 15ish years. So don�t claim credit, good or bad!

So loving stupid.

# ¿ Dec 3, 2021 00:55

mlmp08: Jul 11, 2004; Prepare for my priapic projectile's exalted penetration; Nap Ghost

If your counter to the rising right is to disengage and stop opposing them in the political arena, I question the strategy.

# ¿ Dec 3, 2021 15:50

mlmp08: Jul 11, 2004; Prepare for my priapic projectile's exalted penetration; Nap Ghost

SMEGMA_MAIL posted:

gently caress handing these cynical assholes my vote when they�re working in lockstep with the GOP as token opposition

I don�t give a dollar to the DNC or the big-name but obviously failed candidates (like McConnell�s past opponent or Beto)

Voting is free, and if I give to anyone, I try to find someone decent who has a good chance, even if they�re from another state. The DNC is terrible, but there are individuals out there running who are decent.

And based on studies one of the most effective ways to increase voter turnout is very cheap, though takes some time: Writing personal letters about why you�re voting. There are orgs that ID close races and let you target those areas.

Or just say gently caress national politics and stay active at local level, but protest voting conservative or staying home or something isn�t great.

# ¿ Dec 3, 2021 16:07

mlmp08: Jul 11, 2004; Prepare for my priapic projectile's exalted penetration; Nap Ghost

If we surrendered to farther right-wing control out of frustration, yeah, some people could probably get by while tut-tutting about how bad it is. People like myself, a cishet white guy, might fare pretty OK while watching it crumble and hoping something better shows up in 12-40 years. But in the meantime, we'd be selling a lot of less fortunate folks down the river of further right-wing aspirations.

Accelerationism is a pretty privileged ideology, in my view. It's the assumption that you'll be fine while things accelerate, even if it's very bad for others, in the hopes of a longer-term payoff that may never come to fruition.

# ¿ Dec 3, 2021 16:15

mlmp08: Jul 11, 2004; Prepare for my priapic projectile's exalted penetration; Nap Ghost

Loucks posted:

That said, throwing away voting as useless is a mistake as, if nothing else, local and sometimes state elections can be worth the effort and result in actual Good Things happening.

Yes, absolutely agreed.

# ¿ Dec 3, 2021 16:21

mlmp08: Jul 11, 2004; Prepare for my priapic projectile's exalted penetration; Nap Ghost

facialimpediment posted:

The timeline appears to be:

"Hey... why are you searching for ammunition with your phone during school hours?"
*looks at drawings* HOLY poo poo GET THEIR PARENTS IN HERE
"Hey Mr/Mrs Fuckup, look at what we found here"
[unknown parental response]
Parents leave
Kid goes into bathroom and comes out shooting
Dad: hey my unlocked gun is missing

https://twitter.com/DavidEggert00/status/1466821141062893571

Edit: HOLY gently caress

https://twitter.com/atrupar/status/1466819872160165894

https://twitter.com/atrupar/status/1466821363935682564

Just parking my gun in a drawer where I live with a minor, then not checking to make sure it stays there longer than 3 whole days or checking its status after called in due to the school call-in.

# ¿ Dec 3, 2021 19:46

mlmp08: Jul 11, 2004; Prepare for my priapic projectile's exalted penetration; Nap Ghost

https://twitter.com/erictopol/status/1466835379093344258?s=21

Pretty bad.

# ¿ Dec 3, 2021 21:50

mlmp08: Jul 11, 2004; Prepare for my priapic projectile's exalted penetration; Nap Ghost

When you definitely understand the story of the grinch:

https://twitter.com/cbsnews/status/1466799443458543618?s=21

# ¿ Dec 3, 2021 23:22

mlmp08: Jul 11, 2004; Prepare for my priapic projectile's exalted penetration; Nap Ghost

Current Event: Abusing a rule made to keep you from getting destroyed is dumb. Seems like they�ll need to call plays dead if QBs pull this stunt.

https://twitter.com/247sports/status/1467305612212154370?s=21

# ¿ Dec 5, 2021 07:20

mlmp08: Jul 11, 2004; Prepare for my priapic projectile's exalted penetration; Nap Ghost

�Guys, I�m concerned that you�re not staying in step with my fascist beats.�

�Just play the drum, Brayden.�

https://twitter.com/andreamccarren/status/1467249119395782657?s=21

What a bunch of shitbags.

# ¿ Dec 5, 2021 17:19

mlmp08: Jul 11, 2004; Prepare for my priapic projectile's exalted penetration; Nap Ghost

https://twitter.com/sensei_leaf/status/1466955862484918273?s=21

It�s so good.

# ¿ Dec 5, 2021 19:29

mlmp08: Jul 11, 2004; Prepare for my priapic projectile's exalted penetration; Nap Ghost

PookBear posted:

Turkey is illegally occupying half of Cyprus, who is in the EU. No one would do poo poo if Russia rolled over Ukraine as long as russia gave the rest of the world just enough of pretext so they could ignore it.

It�s kinda funny that step one of getting a NATO map accepted into a conop is covering Cyprus with the legend or some other graphic.

# ¿ Dec 7, 2021 17:55

mlmp08: Jul 11, 2004; Prepare for my priapic projectile's exalted penetration; Nap Ghost

PSA: Army cops, I dunno�

# ¿ Dec 9, 2021 00:08

mlmp08: Jul 11, 2004; Prepare for my priapic projectile's exalted penetration; Nap Ghost

Basically if you unilaterally decide not to gerrymander, your opponent can just double down on gerrymandering. Who could have foreseen?

Some will say ends do not justify means.

https://twitter.com/redistrict/status/1469026659584159750?s=21

# ¿ Dec 10, 2021 01:23

mlmp08: Jul 11, 2004; Prepare for my priapic projectile's exalted penetration; Nap Ghost

The strike cell article is important. In these forums, a lot of times you'll see former soldiers/marines/etc talking about how cops can pull poo poo they couldn't have as a member of the military. Individual cops might be able to pull individual misconduct, yes, but the machine built to enable dodgy targeting can have effects that reach farther than any individual mil member, save a truly dedicated murderer like Robert Bales, could ever achieve.

# ¿ Dec 13, 2021 17:13

mlmp08: Jul 11, 2004; Prepare for my priapic projectile's exalted penetration; Nap Ghost

LtCol J. Krusinski posted:

Could someone please, PLEASE, copy and paste the strike cell article in here? I�m phone bound and can�t get around the pay-wall.

You�ll gain my eternal gratitude.

Got you. Fromatting may be weird cause of page breaks, but.. :effort:

quote:

A single top secret American strike cell launched tens of thousands of bombs and missiles against the Islamic State in Syria, but in the process of hammering a vicious enemy, the shadowy force sidestepped safeguards and repeatedly killed civilians, according to multiple current and former military and intelligence officials.

The unit was called Talon Anvil, and it worked in three shifts around the clock between 2014 and 2019, pinpointing targets for the United States� formidable air power to hit: convoys, car bombs, command centers and squads of enemy fighters.

But people who worked with the strike cell say in the rush to destroy enemies, it circumvented rules imposed to protect noncombatants, and alarmed its partners in the military and the C.I.A. by killing people who had no role in the conflict: farmers trying to harvest, children in the street, families fleeing fighting, and villagers sheltering in buildings.

Talon Anvil was small � at times fewer than 20 people operating from anonymous rooms cluttered with flat screens � but it played an outsize role in the 112,000 bombs and missiles launched against the Islamic State, in part because it embraced a loose interpretation of the military�s rules of engagement.

�They were ruthlessly efficient and good at their jobs,� said one former Air Force intelligence officer who worked on hundreds of classified Talon Anvil missions from 2016 to 2018. �But they also made a lot of bad strikes.�

The military billed the air war against the Islamic State as the most precise and humane in military history, and said strict rules and oversight by top leaders kept civilian deaths to a minimum despite a ferocious pace of bombing. In reality, four current and former military officials say, the majority of strikes were ordered not by top leaders but by relatively low-ranking U.S. Army Delta Force commandos in Talon Anvil.

U.S. forces and members of the Syrian Democratic Forces patrolling the Kurdish-held town of Darbasiyah in northeastern Syria in 2018.
U.S. forces and members of the Syrian Democratic Forces patrolling the Kurdish-held town of Darbasiyah in northeastern Syria in 2018.Credit...Delil Souleiman / AFP via Getty Images

The New York Times reported last month that a Special Operations bombing run in 2019 killed dozens of women and children, and that the aftermath was concealed from the public and top military leaders. In November, Defense Secretary Lloyd J. Austin III ordered a high-level investigation into the strike, which was carried out by Talon Anvil.

But people who saw the task force operate firsthand say the 2019 strike was part of a pattern of reckless strikes that started years earlier.

When presented with The Times�s findings, several current and former senior Special Operations officers denied any widespread pattern of reckless airstrikes by the strike cell and disregard for limiting civilian casualties. Capt. Bill Urban, a spokesman for the military�s Central Command, which oversees operations in Syria, declined to comment.

As bad strikes mounted, the four military officials said, Talon Anvil�s partners sounded the alarm. Pilots over Syria at times refused to drop bombs because Talon Anvil wanted to hit questionable targets in densely populated areas. Senior C.I.A. officers complained to Special Operations leaders about the disturbing pattern of strikes. Air Force teams doing intelligence work argued with Talon Anvil over a secure phone known as the red line. And even within Talon Anvil, some members at times refused to participate in strikes targeting people who did not seem to be in the fight.

The four officials worked in different parts of the war effort, but all interacted directly with Talon Anvil on hundreds of strikes and soon grew concerned with its way of operating. They reported what they were seeing to immediate superiors and the command overseeing the air war, but say they were ignored.

The former Air Force intelligence officer, who worked almost daily on missions from 2016 to 2018, said he notified the main Air Force operations center in the region about civilian casualties several times, including after a March 2017 strike when Talon Anvil dropped a 500-pound bomb on a building where about 50 people were sheltering. But he said leaders seemed reluctant to scrutinize a strike cell that was driving the offensive on the battlefield.

Every year that the strike cell operated, the civilian casualty rate in Syria increased significantly, according to Larry Lewis, a former Pentagon and State Department adviser who was one of the authors of a 2018 Defense Department report on civilian harm. Mr. Lewis, who has viewed the Pentagon�s classified civilian casualty data for Syria, said the rate was 10 times that of similar operations he tracked in Afghanistan.

�It was much higher than I would have expected from a U.S. unit,� Mr. Lewis said. �The fact that it increased dramatically and steadily over a period of years shocked me.�

Mr. Lewis said commanders enabled the tactics by failing to emphasize the importance of reducing civilian casualties, and that Gen. Stephen J. Townsend, who commanded the offensive against the Islamic State in 2016 and 2017, was dismissive of widespread reports from news media and human rights organizations describing the mounting toll.

In a telephone interview, General Townsend, who now heads the military�s Africa Command, said outside organizations that tracked civilian harm claims often did not vet allegations rigorously enough. But he strongly denied that he didn�t take civilian casualties seriously. �There�s nothing further from the truth,� said General Townsend, who added that as commander he ordered monthly civilian casualty reports in Iraq and Syria be made public. He blamed any civilian casualties on �the misfortunes of war� and not because �we didn�t care.�

Image
Smoke billowed from Raqqa after a coalition airstrike in July 2017.
Smoke billowed from Raqqa after a coalition airstrike in July 2017.Credit...Delil Souleiman/AFP via Getty Images
With few Americans on the ground, it was difficult to get reliable counts of civilian deaths, according to Gen. Joseph L. Votel, the head of the military�s Central Command at the time, and General Townsend�s boss.

�Our ability to get out and look after a strike was extraordinarily limited � it was an imperfect system,� General Votel said in a telephone interview. �But I believe we always took this seriously and tried to do our best.�

Tips, Intercepts and Strikes
Officially, Talon Anvil never existed. Nearly everything it did was highly classified. The strike cell�s actions in Syria were gleaned from descriptions of top secret reports and interviews with current and former military personnel who interacted with the group and who discussed it on the condition that they not be named.

The strike cell was run by a classified Special Operations unit called Task Force 9 that oversaw the ground offensive in Syria. The task force had multiple missions. Army Green Berets trained allied Syrian Kurdish and Arab forces. Small groups of Delta Force operators embedded with ground forces, and an assault team of Delta commandos were on call to launch ground raids on high-value targets, including the Islamic State leader, Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi.

Most of the firepower, though, was run by Talon Anvil. It worked out of bland office spaces, first in Erbil, Iraq, and then, as the war progressed, in Syria, at a shuttered cement plant in the north, and at a housing complex near the Iraqi border called Green Village, former task force members said.

The cell used tips from allied ground forces, secret electronic intercepts, drone cameras and other information to find enemy targets, then hit them with munitions from drones or called in strikes from other coalition aircraft. It also coordinated air support for allied Kurdish and Arab forces fighting on the ground.

Outwardly, the operators showed few signs that they were military, said a former task force member who worked with the strike cell during the height of the war in 2017. They used first names and no rank or uniforms, and many had bushy beards and went to work in shorts and footwear that included Crocs and Birkenstocks. But from their strike room, they controlled a fleet of Predator and Reaper drones that bristled with precision Hellfire missiles and laser-guided bombs.

The task force had a second strike cell that worked with the C.I.A. to hunt high-value Islamic State leaders. It used similar tools, but often tracked a target for days or weeks, and accounted for a fraction of the strikes.

Both cells were created in 2014 when the Islamic State had overrun large parts of Iraq and Syria. Within a few years, the self-declared caliphate was attacking allies in the Middle East and launching terrorist attacks in Europe. The United States was desperate for a force that could identify enemy targets, and put Delta Force in charge.

Early in the American-led offensive, which was known as Operation Inherent Resolve, the military struggled to function at �the speed of war,� as only high-ranking generals from outside Delta could approve strikes, according to a RAND Corporation report on the air war. Seventy-four percent of sorties returned without dropping any weapons, and the offensive began to stall.

Tactics changed late in 2016 when General Townsend took command and, in an attempt to keep pace with a rapidly expanding offensive, moved the authority to approve strikes down to the level of on-scene commanders.

Within Task Force 9, that authority was effectively pushed even lower, a senior official with extensive experience in Iraq and Syria said, to the senior enlisted Delta operator on shift in the strike room � usually a sergeant first class or master sergeant.

Image
Gen. Stephen J. Townsend, center, lowered the level of authority to approve strikes to on-scene commanders, increasing the number of strikes.
Gen. Stephen J. Townsend, center, lowered the level of authority to approve strikes to on-scene commanders, increasing the number of strikes.Credit...Mosa'ab Elshamy/Associated Press
Under the new rules, the strike cell was still required to follow a process of intelligence gathering and risk mitigation to limit harm to civilians before launching a strike. That often meant flying drones over targets for hours to make sure the cell could positively identify enemies and determine whether civilians were in the area.

But the Delta operators were under enormous pressure to protect allied ground troops and move the offensive forward, the former task force member said, and felt hobbled by the safeguards. So in early 2017, they found a way to strike more quickly: self-defense.

Most of Operation Inherent Resolve�s restrictions applied only to offensive strikes. There were far fewer restrictions for defensive strikes that were meant to protect allied forces under imminent threat of harm. So Talon Anvil began claiming that nearly every strike was in self-defense, which enabled them to move quickly with little second-guessing or oversight, even if their targets were miles from any fighting, two former task force members said.

The classified rules of engagement warned that self-defense strikes should not be used to circumvent the more restrictive rules for offensive strikes, two officers with knowledge of the rules said. But for Talon Anvil, there was a tenuous logic to the tactic, one of the former task force members said. If defense rules allowed Talon Anvil to attack an enemy target on the front lines, then why not the same type of target 10 or even 100 miles away that might one day be on the front lines? Soon Talon Anvil was justifying nearly every strike as defensive.

�It�s more expedient to resort to self-defense,� said Mr. Lewis, the former Pentagon adviser. �It�s easier to get approved.�

But speeding up strikes meant less time to gather intelligence and sort enemy fighters from civilians, and the four former military personnel who worked with Talon Anvil said that too often the cell relied on flimsy intelligence from Kurdish and Arab ground forces or rushed to attack with little regard to who might be nearby.

One former task force member said the vast majority of Talon Anvil�s strikes killed only enemy fighters, but that the Delta operators in the strike cell were biased toward hitting and often decided something was an enemy target when there was scant supporting evidence. Part of the problem, he said, was that operators, who rotated through roughly every four months, were trained as elite commandos but had little experience running a strike cell. It addition, he said, the daily demands of overseeing strike after strike seemed to erode operators� perspective and fray their humanity.

The former Air Force intelligence officer said he saw so many civilian deaths as a result of Talon Anvil�s tactics citing self-defense that he eventually grew jaded and accepted them as part of the job. Even still, some attacks stood out.

In one, he said, Talon Anvil followed three men, all with canvas bags, working in an olive grove near the city of Manbij in the fall of 2016. The men had no weapons, and were not near any fighting, but the strike cell insisted they must be enemy fighters and killed them with a missile.

Image
Syrians fleeing their homes in the regional capital of Raqqa in July 2017.
Syrians fleeing their homes in the regional capital of Raqqa in July 2017.Credit...Bulent Kilic/Agence France-Presse � Getty Images
In another, as civilians were trying to flee fighting in the city of Raqqa in June 2017, scores of people boarded makeshift ferries to cross the Euphrates River. He said the task force claimed the ferries were carrying enemy fighters, and he watched on high-definition video as it hit multiple boats, killing at least 30 civilians, whose bodies drifted away in the green water.

A senior military official with direct knowledge of the task force said that what counted as an �imminent threat� was extremely subjective and Talon Anvil�s senior Delta operators were given broad authority to launch defensive strikes. At times, the official acknowledged, that led to bad strikes, and those who showed poor judgment were removed. But the official emphasized these instances were rare.

Fighters, or Children?
As airstrikes escalated in 2017, a broad array of U.S. partners working with the strike cell grew troubled by its tactics.

The C.I.A. had officers embedded in Task Force 9 to supply intelligence on Islamic State leaders and coordinate strikes. The agency was pursuing high-value individuals, and often tracked them for days using multiple drones, waiting to strike when civilian deaths could be minimized.

The task force did not always like to wait, two former C.I.A. officers said. C.I.A. personnel were shocked when they repeatedly saw the group strike with little regard for civilians. Officers reported their concerns to the Department of Defense�s Inspector General, and the agency�s leadership discussed the issue with top officers at the Joint Special Operations Command, one former C.I.A. officer said.

The officer said he never saw evidence that these concerns were taken seriously.

A C.I.A. spokesman declined to comment.

Talon Anvil also clashed at times with the Air Force intelligence teams based in the United States that helped to analyze the torrent of footage from drones. The Delta operators would push analysts to say they saw evidence such as weapons that could legally justify a strike, even when there was none, the former Air Force intelligence officer said. If one analyst did not see what Delta wanted, Delta would ask for a different one.

Delta Force and analysts sometimes argued over whether figures in the sights of a drone were fighters or children, one of the former task force members said.

All of the footage from the strikes is stored by the military. In an apparent attempt to blunt criticism and undercut potential investigations, Talon Anvil started directing drone cameras away from targets shortly before a strike hit, preventing the collection of video evidence, the former Air Force intelligence officer and one of the former task force members said.

Another Air Force officer, who reviewed dozens of task force strikes where civilians were reportedly killed, said that drone crews were trained to keep cameras on targets so the military could assess damage. Yet he frequently saw cameras jerk away at key moments, as if hit by a wind gust. It was only after seeing the pattern over and over, he said, that he began to believe it was done on purpose.

A Hunt for Targets
One morning before dawn in early March 2017, Talon Anvil sent a Predator drone over a Syrian farming town called Karama to cripple enemy positions in the area in preparation for an offensive by allies a week later.

For the former Air Force intelligence officer, the mission stands out as an example of Talon Anvil�s flawed way of operating, and how military leaders seemed to look the other way.

At about 4 a.m., he said, the drone arrived over the town�s flat-roofed houses. His Air Force intelligence team was watching from a secure operations center in the United States. A Talon Anvil operator typed a message into the chat room the cell shared with intelligence analysts: All civilians have fled the area. Anyone left is an enemy fighter. Find lots of targets for us today because we want to go Winchester.

Going Winchester meant expending all of the drone�s missiles and 500-pound bombs.

Image
Members of the U.S.-backed Syrian Democratic Forces patrolling in the town of Karama in 2017.
Members of the U.S.-backed Syrian Democratic Forces patrolling in the town of Karama in 2017.Credit...Delil Souleiman/Agence France-Presse � Getty Images
As the drone circled, the town appeared to be asleep, the former officer said. Even with infrared sensors, the team did not see movement. Talon Anvil focused in on a building and typed in the chat that a tip from ground forces indicated that the building was an enemy training center. Sensors suggested an enemy cellphone or radio might be in the neighborhood but was unable to pinpoint it to a single block, let alone a single building.

Talon Anvil did not wait for confirmation, and ordered a self-defense strike, the former officer said. The Predator dropped a 500-pound bomb through the roof.

As the smoke cleared, the former officer said, his team stared at their screens in dismay. The infrared cameras showed women and children staggering out of the partly collapsed building, some missing limbs, some dragging the dead.

The intelligence analysts began taking screen shots and tallying the casualties. They sent an initial battle damage assessment to Talon Anvil: 23 dead or severely wounded, 30 lightly wounded, very likely civilians. Talon Anvil paused only long enough to acknowledge the message, the former officer said, then pressed on to the next target.

The former Air Force officer said he immediately reported the civilian casualties to Operation Inherent Resolve�s operations center, then called the center�s liaison officer on the red line. He said he never heard back and saw no evidence that any action was ever taken.

Operation Inherent Resolve made a commitment to investigate and report every case of civilian casualties publicly, but nothing in its reports matches the incident. The true toll of the strike in Karama remains uncertain.

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Satellite images show significant damage from airstrikes in the Syrian town of Karama.CreditCredit...Satellite images � 2021 Maxar Technologies.
During a five-day window in early March, Operation Inherent Resolve acknowledged that it launched 47 strikes in the region. Satellite images from the time show extensive damage to at least a dozen buildings, including the building that the former officer said he saw bombed. Local media reported that airstrikes in Karama on March 8 and 9 killed between seven and 14 people and wounded 18.

For two years after the strikes, Operation Inherent Resolve said it could not confirm any civilian casualties in the town. Then, in 2019, it acknowledged that one man had been wounded when the coalition struck an enemy fighting position. It gave coordinates a block from the building the former Air Force intelligence officer said he saw destroyed.

In response to questions from The Times this month, a Special Operations official acknowledged its strike cell had hit targets in the town on March 8 and killed 16 fighters, but denied that any civilians had died.

No outside group has ever investigated the secret strike, and it is unclear what steps the military took to determine what happened. The former officer said no military investigators ever contacted him.

The evidence from the strike � the chat room records, bombing coordinates and video � is stored on government servers, the former officer said. But because of the secrecy surrounding Talon Anvil, all of it is classified.

# ¿ Dec 13, 2021 17:32

mlmp08: Jul 11, 2004; Prepare for my priapic projectile's exalted penetration; Nap Ghost

It's not "surprise, strikes can be bad," but it is an example of how policy can start at the top. President Obama did a lot of striking, and took some flak for it. President Trump juiced that up by a massive margin and encouraged delegation of strikes and top cover for bad strikes as long as also some strikes hit valid targets. President Biden has immediately reigned in a lot of drone strike operations, especially of the SOF/CIA variety.

What's also notable is that this wasn't CIA doing CIA dodgy-rear end poo poo; it was uniformed members being called out by other uniformed members, but the strikes going forward anyway.

# ¿ Dec 13, 2021 18:06

mlmp08: Jul 11, 2004; Prepare for my priapic projectile's exalted penetration; Nap Ghost

I wouldn�t get worked up about TIME Magazine�.

# ¿ Dec 13, 2021 18:30

mlmp08: Jul 11, 2004; Prepare for my priapic projectile's exalted penetration; Nap Ghost

lightpole posted:

You also need to remember you can only ever delegate authority, never responsibility.

I get that�s how the dictionary works, but not so much in practice.

# ¿ Dec 13, 2021 22:26

mlmp08: Jul 11, 2004; Prepare for my priapic projectile's exalted penetration; Nap Ghost

https://twitter.com/paulmcleary/status/1470483713821745159?s=21

oh, okay

# ¿ Dec 14, 2021 01:52

mlmp08: Jul 11, 2004; Prepare for my priapic projectile's exalted penetration; Nap Ghost

In a self-defense involved incident action, several civilians were struck by overpressure waves. Terrorists fled the area; the military is asking the community to assist them in locating these terrorists.

-If the press release was written by a police union, but for the targeting cell

# ¿ Dec 14, 2021 05:57

mlmp08: Jul 11, 2004; Prepare for my priapic projectile's exalted penetration; Nap Ghost

bulletsponge13 posted:

Am I the only one who doesn't give a gently caress about a Matrix sequel? 20 years too late after a fairly mediocre trilogy, for a movie that the previews make look terrible.

I 100% get not caring about a new Matrix movie, but the trilogy was not mediocre. It�s good, and on rewatching 2 and 3, they are better than I remembered them from theaters.

# ¿ Dec 14, 2021 17:47

mlmp08: Jul 11, 2004; Prepare for my priapic projectile's exalted penetration; Nap Ghost

I�m also a Speed Racer fan. The Wachowskis own, and its visuals are amazing.

# ¿ Dec 14, 2021 17:57

mlmp08: Jul 11, 2004; Prepare for my priapic projectile's exalted penetration; Nap Ghost

And sometimes transmission risk factors get lost in translation.

If a vaccine is only 50% of the time stopping you from catching it once exposed, but you already do things (stay home, wear mask, hygeine, etc) that reduce your odds to 1 in 100 to catch the virus over a 3 month period, adding the vaccine on top makes your risk more like 1 in 200. Now if you party inside with strangers all day unmasked, well�

A lot of people read �40% effective� as �60% of people WILL catch the virus� which is not how it works.

# ¿ Dec 16, 2021 01:07

mlmp08: Jul 11, 2004; Prepare for my priapic projectile's exalted penetration; Nap Ghost

The MSRP of the Nissan Versa is just below $15k. The Ford Fiesta is like $15.5K IIRC.

Something leaf adjacent or similar may become my DD once I settle down somewhere. Until then, it�s not uncommon to have to drive rear end-far across nowhere, USA.

# ¿ Dec 16, 2021 19:42

mlmp08: Jul 11, 2004; Prepare for my priapic projectile's exalted penetration; Nap Ghost

Subaru WRX MSRP was ~24-25K in 2003 dollars. Now it�s ~28K in 2021 dollars.

Yay Subaru.

A base-as-gently caress F-150 was 20K in 2003 and is 30K in 2021.

Civic was about 16K base in 2003 dollars, 22-23K base in 2021 dollars.

By raw inflation, $15K in 2003 is about $22.6K in 2021.

Used car market is wild since 2020-ish, though. Similar very dumb used car market prices (not similar causes) during the mid-00s.

# ¿ Dec 16, 2021 20:53

mlmp08: Jul 11, 2004; Prepare for my priapic projectile's exalted penetration; Nap Ghost

The extent of my car gadgets are a small screen, a (very nice to have) reverse camera, blue tooth (worth it), cruise control. Plus all of the air bags and traction control. It�s about 3 years old. I kind of wish it had more of the new safety features like brake assist or lane assist, but oh well, I wanted a fun manual for a low price.

If I really want to, I can make the screen show Gs or boost, but it�s pretty pointless compared to a larger clock or gas mileage.

If you buy a fully loaded SUV or family sedan, yes, you will have more gadget stuff.

E: climate control is all knobs and buttons.

The touch screen is basically just for blue tooth and the reverse camera.

I guess it also has tire pressure monitoring if that counts as fancy.

mlmp08 fucked around with this message at 22:04 on Dec 16, 2021

# ¿ Dec 16, 2021 21:57

mlmp08: Jul 11, 2004; Prepare for my priapic projectile's exalted penetration; Nap Ghost

Honorable is pretty common if a soldier never committed a crime, but just decides one day to refuse to train and refuses to do their job, as long as that refusal isn�t in the middle of a guard mission in combat or something. The default discharge is honorable (or maybe uncharacterized if less than sox months in), unless the person really screws up, is malicious, or if they have leadership with a real inclination toward spite plus a legal advisor who lets them act on that spite.

# ¿ Dec 16, 2021 23:47

mlmp08: Jul 11, 2004; Prepare for my priapic projectile's exalted penetration; Nap Ghost

Godholio posted:

Hell, SEDANS are dead because people viewed them as low class.

Sedans are dead?!

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/g32006077/best-selling-cars-2020/

A lot of the recent news articles and twitter takes about how expensive cars are is some mix of:

1. commenting on the current inflated used car prices
2. Wealthy people going �wow, this fully loaded all options medium-sized SUV or fullsize sedan is $55-75K?! When did this happen?!� (It happened when they started shopping for premium cars instead of basic models)
3. Marketing to make you feel like the sedans for regular people, which sell for 20-30K, are a steal.
4. Microchips mania
5. Old people not knowing how inflation works.

A brand new turbocharged sports car starts less than 30K today. A brand new basic model sedan is cheaper in dollars� buying power today than it was in year 2000 dollars, adjusted for inflation.

Rent is the inflationary area affecting everyone that I worry about long term a hell of a lot more than cars.

# ¿ Dec 16, 2021 23:56

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# ¿ May 13, 2024 23:17

mlmp08: Jul 11, 2004; Prepare for my priapic projectile's exalted penetration; Nap Ghost

A soldier forged multiple signatures of officers to get out of work and PT, lied when asked about it, hid in a closet for half a day, and then invited his mom to travel from out of state to see him at the unit without telling her he was pending chapter. I was informed it was too hardcore to give him a general vs honorable discharge, because he was basically lazy and obstinate, but he did not attack anyone or steal anything.

So, really, honorable discharges for people whose sole misconduct is saying �no,� to a vaccine makes sense. Different story if they�re out their deliberately talking poo poo like that dumb Marine LTC.

# ¿ Dec 17, 2021 00:22

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Internet VFW > December 2021 CE: WTF, FL?

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