|
This thread is not about Taiwanese twirly bois, Wuhan war whistles, Beijing blowholes or even Nagasaki noisy boys. It is instead about the complete opposite end of the spectrum. Cheap Chinese turbochargers are just that, cheap. Do you really want something spinning at one hundred thousand revolutions per minute that was built to a price point where fractions of a cent matter? That has seen zero quality control (or perhaps is a QC reject?). That is the embodiment of 差不多? No you really don’t, if you care about durability and safety. That’s not very AI though, is it? That’s where industrial diesel turbochargers come in. Each one is designed to run for thousands of hours without maintenance. To be as durable as possible and when it is time to be maintained, to be easy and cheap. To be the most efficient possible, because that efficiency means economy and increased economy means less operating cost.(Curved titanium compressor wheels since 2013 for instance.) I am letting the cat out of the bag with this thread and as the title suggests. AI mine as well benefit before the rest of the internet catches up and the prices increase. I am not going to be adding a whole lot of information of my own because I have ZERO qualifications to do so. Instead, I will attempt to aggregate and summarize as much info as I can. There will be a focus on the North American market, although the UK is also represented as one of the big 3’s greatest evangelists is based there. I will also be leaving turbo sizing discussions out of this post. That is an entirely different thread which I cannot do justice. I encourage suggestions and corrections and will do my best to update this post. I absolutely have made mistakes. The links might die. As the thread tag suggests, I might just be ignoring reality. The big three of industrial diesel turbo manufacturers Holset (Cummins) https://www.cummins.com/components/turbo-technologies/aftermarket Borg Warner (Boosting Technologies) https://www.borgwarner.com/technologies/boosting-technologies Garrett (Garrett Motion, formerly Honeywell) https://www.garrettmotion.com/turbocharger-technology/commercial-vehicle-turbochargers/ My bias is primarily due to this blog post: http://www.stavtech.co.uk/home/the-ultimate-holset-turbo-guide-probably --->Stop reading this thread and read this. Then come back and continue. Let’s use the latest turbo I have been obsessing over as an example. The Holset HE561VE. It is a member of the newest Holset HE family which means it has a curved titanium impeller. Flows around 0.75kg/s (99lb/m) of air. Has a CANbus controlled variable geometry turbine housing. Holset varies the size of the housing, the others vary the turbine vanes. It is quite large and heavy (durable). Lots of room for porting, holds plenty of heat and won't crack from stress. http://www.myholsetturbo.com/holsethe500.html Rebuild kits are $150 and readily available. The turbo is also so new that the first batch has not yet reached the end of its service life, so there are still new ones sitting on shelves taking up space because very few have needed replacement yet. Then there’s the VGT. http://www.myholsetturbo.com/vgt.html https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LwF_rgqhi8I From Holsets technical advisor Jeff Carter: “The smart actuator features a brushless motor and determines its position by counting the number of steps the motor has moved from a reference position. The use of a brushless motor and elimination of the potentiometer removes the issue of wear already mentioned. Gears and a linkage are still used to match the motor’s torque to the nozzle load. The smart actuator is so-called because it has its own control electronics, continually adjusting the current to the motor until the measured position meets the commanded position (Figure 5). As this position adjustment can be carried out at a faster rate than the rate of change of position command from the ECU, the actuator’s transient response is better than previous forms of variable nozzle control. The smart actuator can also detect and communicate if it is not performing as expected. For example, if the actuator position does not meet the command value, if the supply voltage is not in the correct range or if the internal electronics has suffered some problem then the smart actuator will know.” All this is completed over canbus. Which Holset/Cummins hasn’t shared but that hasn’t stopped anyone before. Enter the “Lil’ Black Box”. https://www.lilbb.com/ If you’re running a stock ECU or standalone which doesn’t have a spare dedicated CAN output, you’ll need one of these. If not, you just need the CAN addresses from the code library. At this point, you’re probably asking “But Why?” Infinitely variable A/R. You can pinch the turbine side right down to get things spooled up and once you’ve reached the desired boost level, start opening things up to maintain boost. So what’s the downside? Heat is the enemy. You have to be very very aware of your EGT’s. So let’s say I wanted to buy one? This is where things get a little complicated and hopefully this thread can help. Step one is to go here: https://www.turbomaster.info/eng/catalogs/holset.php I want a HE561VE, which brings me here: https://www.turbomaster.info/eng/catalogs/model.php?base=holset&pagina=HE561VE To the left are the manufacturer part numbers. Specifically: 2836358, 2838008, 2838153, 2840523, 4045018, 4045019 These part numbers are etched/stamped on a plate riveted to the compressor housing of the turbo. They are also how you will be able to find your desired turbo from retailers/distributors/rebuilders online. In North America, your best bet are these guys: https://goldfarbinc.com/ Goldfarb & Associates (I am going to regret telling everyone about these guys.) There is also Turbo Turbos: https://turboturbos.com/ who are a reseller. They don’t usually have the really new stuff, but if you’re after a cheap new or rebuilt HX series Holset turbo, they’ve got you covered. In the UK, there is the “famed” Compressor Racing: https://www.ebay.ca/usr/compressor_racing_uk/ Back to the HE561VE: https://goldfarbinc.com/products/2838154-holset-he561v-turbocharger-new Sold out. Also sold out / NLA from the other places. Luckily both Goldfarb and Compressor Racing have a watchlist you can sign up for. How about if we don’t want something fancy. Let’s get rid of the VGT capability and drop down a size. Like a HE400WG. New titanium impeller, flows .54kg/s of air, has an internal wastegate and nothing else. Simple, durable and will make a reasonable amount of power. https://www.turbomaster.info/eng/catalogs/model.php?base=holset&pagina=HE400W Used by lots of manufacturers. https://goldfarbinc.com/products/3785224n-4051033-new-holset-he400wg-turbocharger-fits-cummins-isle-engine The Cummins version is sold out. https://goldfarbinc.com/products/3792724n-holset-he400wg-turbocharger-new But they’ve got eight in stock of the Volvo A25F Engine version for $775CAD. Then there’s the tried and true HX/HE351. They’re everywhere, used on everything and are available in basically every configuration you can imagine. Internal wastegate, VGT, etc. Old HX35W’s make 400whp forever on a stock 13B. They spool by 3500 and pull to 8000rpm. They’re also $500-$700. http://www.myholsetturbo.com/holsethe300.html What about the reverse. Let’s say you’re a few drinks deep, it’s close to midnight and you’re back browsing Goldfarb & Associates and a rebuilt HX55 for $646 catches your eye. https://goldfarbinc.com/products/2836376r-a4720960799-holset-hx55-detroit-dd15-turbocharger-rebuilt http://www.myholsetturbo.com/holsethx55.html The part number isn’t listed in the turbo master catalogue though. Might not be worth the hassle as finding rebuild kits, parts and additional specs more difficult. Or for $700 you just say screw it. It’s huge and will make loads of boost assuming you have an engine that can spool it. What about Garrett? They are not as forthcoming with their spec sheets for industrial diesel applications and thus getting turbine/compressor specs and/or maps is more difficult. Turbomaster does have some maps for the generic turbo sizes. https://goldfarbinc.com/products/751361-9004r-1826361c93-garrett-navistar-gta3782bd-turbocharger-rebuilt Like this rebuilt Garrett GTA3782 for $710. https://www.turbomaster.info/eng/applications/452159-0003.php Not a bad compressor map.  Lastly, there’s always Borg Warner (aka Schwitzer). https://www.turbomaster.info/eng/catalogs/model.php?base=schwitzer&pagina=S400S https://goldfarbinc.com/products/177285-new-borgwarner-john-deere-s400-turbocharger Both Garrett and BW aren’t as cost effective in the industrial diesel market as they already offer their turbos as equivalents in the performance market. Another reason why my primary focus is on Holset. There's plenty missing that I need to add, like what the hell kind of sizes are these things and what is their equivalency but for a jumping off point, it'll do. I hope.
|
#
?
Dec 22, 2021 02:08
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 5, 2024 16:43 |
|
|
Just a very very very very loose rule of thumb, maximum flow of turbos is more or less proportional to inducer area - and doing some math on stuff with available maps, "2 pounds of flow maximum per square cm of inducer" seems about right. So a way to sanity check promising seeming but unknown turbos. Another sanity check thing is average area of inducer vs exducer of compressor side, vs average area of inducer vs exducer of exhaust side - stuff with a lot more intake vs exhaust area is going to be suited for smaller stuff running lots of boost, stuff about even more like rotaries or 3Lish per turbo stuff, more exhaust side will be more optimized for larger stuff with relatively low boost. "Trim" is the ratio of inducer vs exducer area; 60 or maybe 62 trim on the compressor side seems to be about where stuff maxes out in one direction, 40 trim or so in the other direction. Numerically lower trim is probably more optimized for high boost, higher trim for higher flow... or if you think of it another way, lower trim for a given inducer size is going to be a much bigger compressor, with more inertia. Tradeoffs. I mean maps are nicer but hey, you get the data you get.
|
|
#
?
Dec 22, 2021 05:11
|
|
|
A VGT turbo on my Toyota 1HD-FTE would make me a very happy person. These things will do 580hp on stock internals but big turbos don’t really spool the diesels up well down low…
|
|
#
?
Dec 22, 2021 09:32
|
|
|
Ferremit posted:A VGT turbo on my Toyota 1HD-FTE would make me a very happy person. These things will do 580hp on stock internals but big turbos don’t really spool the diesels up well down low… I mean, diesels suggest an easy way - just run a turbo intended for a higher power diesel. HE341 or a used Ram HE351 should work.
|
|
#
?
Dec 23, 2021 01:14
|
|
|
 
|
|
#
?
Dec 23, 2021 03:32
|
|
|
Awesome info, I stumbled on a pair of Holsets that were pulled off some Dodges when they had a recall for the electronic actuator. Theres a Lq4 in my basement that I was going to try and put them on until I ran out of time to do things like that, one day I'll finish my full size "Typhoon".
|
|
#
?
Dec 23, 2021 15:15
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 5, 2024 16:43 |
|
|
these things are really missing variable power. talk about big and sl0w
|
|
#
?
Dec 27, 2021 06:26
|
|