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With the new year comes a new round of HOF debates we definitely haven't had many times before! The Pro Football Hall of Fame committee released its final ballot on Thursday, and this is an absurdly stacked ballot. Remember, voters can only vote for five candidates in the modern player pool, so there are going to be some hard choices because everybody on this list has a legitimate case (there is already outrage over Steve Smith Sr. not making the final cut). There are six first-time candidates with all very different cases. DeMarcus Ware feels like the biggest lock of the group, and we're about to see how much the voters really value special teams play with the GOAT returner eligible for the first time. Before you make your predictions, remember: only five guys. Who's getting left out? Jared Allen, Defensive End Kansas City Chiefs 2004-07, Minnesota Vikings 2008-13, Carolina Panthers 2014, Chicago Bears 2014. Five Pro Bowls, four first-team All-Pros, Led league in sacks twice (2007, 2011) and fumble recoveries once (2006). 12th all-time in career sacks Willie Anderson, Tackle Cincinnati Bengals 1996-2007, Baltimore Ravens 2008. Four Pro Bowls, three first-team All-Pros, one second-team All-Pro. Ronde Barber, Cornerback Tampa Bay Buccaneers 1997-2012. Five Pro Bowls, three first-team All-Pros, two second-team All-Pros. Second-team 2000s All-Decade. Led league in interceptions once (2001). Tony Boselli, Tackle Jacksonville Jaguars 1995-2001. Five Pro Bowls, three first-team All-Pros. Second-team 1990s All-Decade. LeRoy Butler, Safety Green Bay Packers 1990-2001. Four Pro Bowls, four first-team All-Pros. First-team 1990s All-Decade. Devin Hester, Returner Chicago Bears 2006-13, Atlanta Falcons 2014-15, Baltimore Ravens 2016, Seattle Seahawks 2016. Four Pro Bowls, three first-team All-Pros, one second-team All-Pro. Second-team 2000s All-Decade, 2010s All-Decade Team. NFL 100 All-time Team. All-time leader in return touchdowns. Torry Holt, Wide Receiver St. Louis Rams 1999-2008, Jacksonville Jaguars 2009. Seven Pro Bowls, one first-team All-Pro, one second-team All-Pro. Second-team 2000s All-Decade. Led league in receptions once (2003), receiving yards twice (2000, 2003).16th all-time in career receiving yards. Andre Johnson, Wide Receiver Houston Texans 2003-14, Indianapolis Colts 2015, Tennessee Titans 2016. Seven Pro Bowls, two first-team All-Pros, two second-team All-Pros. Led league in receptions twice (2006, 2008) and receiving yards twice (2008, 2009). 11th all-time in career receptions, 11th all-time in receiving yards. Sam Mills, Linebacker New Orleans Saints 1986-93, Carolina Panthers 1994-97. Five Pro Bowls, one first-team All-Pro, two second-team All-Pros. Second-team 1990s All-Decade. Richard Seymour, Defensive End New England Patriots 2001-08, Oakland Raiders 2009-12. Seven Pro Bowls, three first-team All-Pros, two second-team All-Pros. 2000s All-Decade. Zach Thomas, Linebacker Miami Dolphins 1996-2007, Dallas Cowboys 2008. Seven Pro Bowls, five first-team All-Pros, two second-team All-Pros. Second-team 2000s All-Decade. Led league in tackles twice (2002, 2006). Fifth all-time in career recorded tackles. DeMarcus Ware, Defensive End Dallas Cowboys 2005-13, Denver Broncos 2014-16. Nine Pro Bowls, four first-team All-Pros, three second-team All-Pros. Second-team 2000s All-Decade. Led league in sacks twice (2008, 2010). Ninth all-time in career sacks, 15th all-time in career forced fumbles. Reggie Wayne, Wide Receiver Indianapolis Colts 2001-14. Six Pro Bowls, one first-team All-Pro, two second-team All-Pros. Led league in receiving yards once (2007). Tenth all-time in career receptions, 10th all-time in receiving yards. Patrick Willis, Linebacker San Francisco 49ers 2007-14. Seven Pro Bowls, five first-team All-Pros, one second-team All-Pro. 2007 Defensive Rookie of the Year. 2010s All-Decade Team. Led league in tackles twice (2007, 2009) Bryant Young, Defensive Lineman San Francisco 49ers 1994-2007. Four Pro Bowls, one first-team All-Pro, three second-team All-Pros.Second-team 1990s All-Decade. 1999 Comeback Player of the Year.
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Dec 31, 2021 00:28
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Patrick Willis came into the league as one of the best linebackers in the league and left as one of the best linebackers in the league, he should have been a first ballot pick imo
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Dec 31, 2021 00:30
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Something I was writing up for N/V when I saw this thread: Since you naturally have to compare them to each other: Allen vs Ware vs Young - Allen was the biggest personality, which reporters love, but Ware was a cowboy, so.... Young feels like a weird outlier, not sure why he keeps making the finals list. Holt vs Wayne vs Johnson. Holt was the guy on an offense so good it had a name, but otoh he was the ~3rd biggest name on that offense. Wayne spent most of his career with Peyton, so lots of name recognition at a position that doesn't hurt for it, while Andre Johnson put up those numbers with a bunch of nobody QB's... downside, you only ever saw him play when Berman was shouting over him because Texans got no national time. Thomas vs Willis vs Mills - I forgot who said it recently, but basically they said every single team has their linebacker that racked up a billion tackles and was the heart and soul of pretty decent defenses for a long time, and here's 3 of them. I don't know why Mills is here, but whatever, I was definitely not clued in on the 90's NFC West (yes the Saints and Panthers were in the NFC West). Willis has the weird downside of not having a long career, but was an all pro 5 of his first 6 seasons. Richard Seymour - A 3-4 DE who never put up huge stats, but was the best player on multiple SB winners. Punched Roethlisberger in the face. LeRoy Butler - Supposedly invented the lambeau leap, won a SB, has enough turnovers + sacks. Boselli vs Willie - They're tackles, so guys are gonna get up and talk about how all the times they threw a linebacker into another linebacker and go ohhhhhhh, Neither had particularly long careers for OT's, but Boselli had an extremely short 7 year career which will hurt him. Hester - The best guy to do what he did, shame what he did was such a small, but super exciting part of the game. short version: he shouldn't go in over full time players, but they should expand the hall enough to put all the full time guys that should be in in, and he should go in with them.
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Dec 31, 2021 00:40
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Put in Coryell you loving cowards
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Dec 31, 2021 00:48
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Hester is the GOAT return man and there hasn't ever been anyone even close to him. He absolutely deserves in the hall and should go in. IDGAF if he was only the best returner. There are four kickers and a punter in the HoF and I will argue that Hester was just as important if not even moreso than the rest of them. Imagine Hester returning kicks for a team that was QBed by someone other than Rex loving Grossman.
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Dec 31, 2021 01:13
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Mr. Nice! posted:Hester is the GOAT return man and there hasn't ever been anyone even close to him. He absolutely deserves in the hall and should go in. IDGAF if he was only the best returner. There are four kickers and a punter in the HoF and I will argue that Hester was just as important if not even moreso than the rest of them. Imagine Hester returning kicks for a team that was QBed by someone other than Rex loving Grossman. I mean I get the argument, but at the same time, the all time greatest returner had... 19 return TD's. I'd put him in, I just don't see how you can put him in over 12 of the other guys on that list. He was top ten in all purpose yards only twice despite KR yards being free real estate back then. He also fumbled a loving lot (41) for a guy who didn't touch the ball very often. For comparison, Reggie Wayne, Torry Holt and Andre Johnson combined for 40 career fumbles. Kalli fucked around with this message at 01:28 on Dec 31, 2021 |
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Dec 31, 2021 01:20
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The argument for Hester is kind of a hard one because the return game has kind of been nerfed a little bit. Teams only kick to the returners now as a tactical choice on kickoffs and teams are more likely (it seems to me anyway) to try and block a punt now if they're desperate for points over trying something on a return. The big push for player safety has kind of hurt that side of special teams. It makes it difficult for you to make the case that he changed the position forever. I guess it depends on what kind of hall of fame philosophy you have - Do you like like a big hall of fame and what are your criteria or do you think it should be reserved for players who either revolutionised the game or have overwhelming statistics? I've always been a bit of the mind that guys should go in if you can't tell the story of the NFL without them and with Hester while I think if the rule changes weren't made and the return game was still a big factor you might have seen some specialists really come into the game because of him but I don't know if you can make that argument now. Though I don't think its unfair to say guys like Tavon Austin and Cordarelle Patterson were taken as high as they were with the hopes they could be similar players. I tend to think of it a little bit like fullbacks. There hasn't been a fullback go into the hall that I can find since the 80s and there were probably some guys opening holes in the early 2000s you could make a case for. Mike Alstott was a 3 time all pro and 6 time pro bowler doing everything in Tampa (his TD record only got broken this year), Tony Richardson blocked for 9 1000 yard rushers in consecutive seasons - 2 time all pro and 3 time pro bowler - will probably get mentioned at a few speeches in the next few years but now that the position is all but an after thought in the modern league and they didn't have a definite statistical impact they're never getting a bust. BlindSite fucked around with this message at 01:44 on Dec 31, 2021 |
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Dec 31, 2021 01:42
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Get Hester in there. Another Raven in the hall of fame!!
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Dec 31, 2021 02:11
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Hester Johnson Ware Wayne After that I'm conflicted. Willis or Anderson I suppose.
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Dec 31, 2021 02:21
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BlindSite posted:
Lo Neal, Mack Strong, and Tony Richardson all doing what they did at the same time was a golden fullback age
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Dec 31, 2021 02:39
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Hester was so loving cool.
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Dec 31, 2021 02:42
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Gun to my head I would go: Ware Butler Boselli Johnson Willis
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Dec 31, 2021 02:45
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ken anderson
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Dec 31, 2021 02:48
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R.D. Mangles posted:Hester was so loving cool. he should be in the Hall.
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Dec 31, 2021 03:25
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a neat cape posted:Put in Coryell you loving cowards enshrine the 1978 rule changes first IMO He was a pretty good not great coach, and I think winning a championship should 100% be a pre-requisite(throw George Allen's bust in a loving dumpster who cares). I don't think the "innovation" stuff really makes up the difference there- I don't think he invented a lot of stuff that was genuinely new- the things he commonly gets credited with like single back, option routes, etc. weren't at all new, IMO it was more about him having the foresight to adjust to the 1978 rules changes quicker than anyone else did. They absolutely should have like a permanent exhibit on guys who changed the way the game was played- him, Monte Kiffin, Bill Arnsparger, etc. but they shouldn't get a gold jacket unless they were genuinely great NFL head coaches. Also while we're at it get rid of all the loving owners, dumpster them.
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Dec 31, 2021 03:33
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If your resume includes the words "The Best" then you belong in the hall. That's as simple as it gets.
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Dec 31, 2021 05:42
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the best... goddamn fucker... who sucked!
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Dec 31, 2021 05:52
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Why are you guys ignoring Ronde Barber? He's the most deserving imo.
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Dec 31, 2021 06:25
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Hester Ware Holt Boselli Allen
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Dec 31, 2021 06:44
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For some of these guys, I'm basically just gonna copy/paste what I said last year: Jared Allen, Defensive End: Bunch of Pro Bowls and All-Pros, came close to breaking the sack record in 2011, and well remembered as a colorful guy in a good way. If Mayne Event segments were a consideration, he'd be in first ballot both for the legendary throwing gif, as well as the one with him rocking the jorts and Canadian tuxedo to help Brett Favre sell Wranglers. I said last year that I think he'd struggle to get votes against other players with stronger statistical or media arguments, and so far that has played out. Willie Anderson, Tackle: Four Pro Bowls and three All-Pros during the Bengals revival in the mid-00s. His 12-year career started during the Bungels era in 1996, and he honestly isn't big name among offensive linemen. Like, I probably remember him vaguely from Madden, cause I really don't remember him at all. Compared to a lot of the other offensive linemen in recent years, or Boselli this year, he's a longshot candidate and probably the weakest of the finalists this year. Ronde Barber, Defensive Back: Ronde had sneakily become a solid good color commentator over the previous few years, but stopped doing games this year in favor of Tiki. Previously, with him actively calling games, I thought that might help his case. On the field, he's got an extremely solid list, including being 4th all time for non-offensive touchdowns with 14 (Behind Hester, Deion Sanders, and Rod Woodson), and being a key part of the early 00's Buccaneers. This is is second consecutive year as a finalist, after being eligible for a bit, and I thought he'd be selected last year since the Super Bowl was in Tampa, but instead his teammate John Lynch went in. I wonder how voters view is case, but I think that maybe with his teammate Lynch out of the way, he has a better shot this year. Tony Boselli, Tackle: To basically update what I said about him previous years the whole peak vs longevity argument is well documented, but support to get him in has grown a lot over recent years to the point I'd almost call it universal now. I don't know if it's enough to get him in over other players, but it's his Devin Hester, Returner: The greatest return man of all time, no question. He unquestionably changed games with how teams kicked or punted to him for years, and was one of the most exciting players in the league for years when the Bears weren't trying to make him a #1 wide receiver due to lack of other options. I'm glad he made it as a finalist in his first year, I want him to get in, but I have zero faith in the voters. LeRoy Butler, Safety: Two years ago and last year, I said that Butler always struck me as really good, but never among the best in the NFL. He invented the Lambeau Leap (Although Robert Brooks is the one who popularized it), was a key cog on the mid-90's Packers, and his career has gotten more appreciation in recent years as safety play has become more recognized in general. He really didn't stand a chance two years ago since he was going up against Troy Polamalu, and last year he was up against another DB with a strong Packers connection in Charles Woodson and predictably got bumped again. I'd likely have him behind Barber as a DB candidate, and I'd have both of them behind a bunch of other players this year, so I don't think he's getting in. Torry Holt, Wide Receiver: I wondered two years ago if him and Isaac Bruce being on the same ballot might keep one or both out. Bruce got in, but then Holt had to contend with two other receivers in Calvin Johnson and Reggie Wayne being eligible for the first time last year, and Megatron went in on the first ballot and now Wayne is a finalist again and Andre Johnson is eligible. Holt was awesome for a good eight or nine years, even as the Rams fell apart in the mid-00's, and has a ring, so he has a great chance on paper. Historically, the HoF has a bad record with handling receivers, but Calvin Johnson getting in first ballot was a nice surprise so maybe they've changed a bit? I'm still a bit unsure how him, Wayne, and Johnson may affect each others changes. Some voters like to favor guys who waited longer, others have insane agendas, so I'd say he's a toss up this year. Andre Johnson, Wide Receiver: A quite guy who didn't talk much or ask for attention, drafted by the Houston Texans in their second year of existence, is basically a recipe for a guy to be ignored by the media for years. He made the Pro Bowl every time he had over 1000 yards, and his two All-Pros coincided with him leading the NFL in yardage in 2008 and 2009. His best seasons came when his QB was mostly Matt Schaub, the Texans had a meh running game, and no defense, so they mainly existed to get lit up by Peyton Manning and ignored by the wider football world. All that said, everyone who watched him knew he was clearly one of the best receivers in football, and I'm happy he's eligible in his first year. The lack of team success and raw accolades may hurt him. Of the three receivers this year, I think he has the weakest case and likely will have to wait a few years, but hopefully not too long. Sam Mills, Linebacker: Basically just gonna paste what I said the last two years: Mills was a 5'9" inside linebacker who came out of the USFL, and was pretty much the heart and soul of every defense he was ever a part of. He's universally respected by those who played both with and against him. The weakness of his case was he spent his peak in the USFL, then with the Dome Patrol Saints and expansion Panthers. The linebacking corps that he anchored in New Orleans was one of the greatest of all time, sending all four players to the Pro Bowl in 1992. But, the knock here was those Saints never won a playoff game, were pretty meh outside those linebackers, and never got much national attention. He spent a few years with the expansion Panthers, getting his only All-Pro nod, but still not being as well known nationally. He absolutely should have been inducted a while ago, but keeps getting passed over (I had him over John Lynch last year, for example). Richard Seymour, Defensive Lineman: Same thing, what I said in previous years: On one hand, gently caress the Patriots. On the other, he broke Ben Roethlisberger's nose. I'm conflicted. He's probably worthy, and the voters likely love them some  , so he'll always have a solid chance. Thus, he'll continue to lurk among candidates, but again, I wouldn't pick him this year and I don't think he gets in.Zach Thomas, Linebacker: Again, basically the same: Thomas spent most of his career on some really good defenses for some not fully terrible, but not really good Dolphins teams. He was really good, but also played in the AFC at the same time as Ray Lewis, and with Urlacher in the NFC, he likely missed out on some Pro Bowl or All-Pro recognition despite being just as worthy but lacking name and team recognition (Also getting similarly inflated tackle numbers). Like Mills, he is widely respected by both the people he played with and those he played against. I think he deserves to get in, but he keeps having to wait, and at this point I wonder if him and Mills being eligible are splitting the linebacker vote. DeMarcus Ware, Defensive End: An outstanding pass rusher for a decade, being essentially the face of the Cowboys defense for years and then going to Denver to pair with Von Miller to help win a ring. Position/role wise, he'll be up against Jared Allen, and I think that'd be an interesting debate. I suspect voters would favor Ware for the Dallas connection, his role on that great Denver defense, and being the sort of guy the media loved for assorted reasons while Allen was more a guy fans loved. Reggie Wayne, Wide Receiver: I'll preface everything by saying Reggie was one of my favorite players and one of the few actual jerseys that I own. He's still Top 10 in receptions and yards (I forget exactly where he ranked when he retired). He was Peyton's favorite target his last five years in Indianapolis, then spent a year and a half doing the same with Andrew Luck, in a new system where Wayne was used in different ways, before tearing his ACL at 35. He came back for a final season with the Colts and then spent like a week in the Patriots training camp before retiring. He'll get some benefit for playing with Manning, Marvin Harrison, and Edgerrin James, with some of his best seasons coming after Edge left and when Harrison was either injured or gone. Voters may also give him some benefit for the sort of 'played the right way' bullshit they tend to love, in that Reggie was not hugely outspoken or prone to excessive celebrations. He did talk and dance after some touchdowns, but it wasn't the sort of stuff that grabbed national headlines. I didn't expect him to get in last year with Megatron being eligible, and this year I think he's got the best case of the wide receivers just ever so slightly over Holt. I want to see him go in, but I don't know if he will just yet... Patrick Willis, Linebacker: Willis was the best middle linebacker in football for seven seasons until he got hurt in his last year. He was outstanding and got attention before Harbaugh's arrival revived the 49ers. Last year, it came up that he was eligible but didn't make it as a finalist, and I noted his legacy seemed to have gotten lost in all the chaos that happened to the 49ers after his retirement, so I'm happy to see him make it this far this year. I think he is a very strong candidate, and I think his case will likely appeal to voters more than the legacy linebackers like Mills or Thomas, but I'd be fine with any of them going in this year. Bryant Young, Defensive Line: Young has previously been nominated for the HoF a few times but I don't think has ever made it as a finalist even though he has been eligible since 2013. Young's 89.5 sacks came entirely from him playing defensive tackle. Per Wikipedia, that would be the 6th most among players listed as a defensive tackle, but a few of the guys listed ahead of him (HoFer John Randle and Trevor Pryce) also had a number of seasons playing defensive end where they racked up decent sacks to boost their numbers. Young won a Super Bowl as a rookie, but doesn't have the usual flurry of accolades players got, but I think that's just a side effect of the era he played in. Drafted in 1994 and playing his entire career with the 49ers, guys like Sapp or Randle in the years he played DT getting a lot of those votes. Youngs' career also spanned the era when the 49ers faded into mediocrity. He earned a Comeback Player of the Year award in 1999 after a nasty knee injury late the year before. Young is in the 49ers team Hall of Fame, and deservedly so, but I think his Pro Football Hall of Fame class isn't the strongest. To me, his resume feels like it'll result in a long wait, and he seems like a textbook Senior nominee way down the line. What I'd Like to See: Devin Hester Sam Mills Zach Thomas DeMarcus Ware Reggie Wayne What I Think We'll Get: Ronde Barber Tony Boselli DeMarcus Ware Reggie Wayne Patrick Willis This is one of the most interesting classes we've had in a long time since there aren't any sure fire, obvious locks like Peyton and Woodson last year, or Polamalu the year before. I had four of the five right last year (Only think I had switched was teammates Lynch and Barber), but this year I really don't have a lot of confidence on who might get selected. a neat cape posted:Put in Coryell you loving cowards  Mr. Nice! posted:Hester is the GOAT return man and there hasn't ever been anyone even close to him. He absolutely deserves in the hall and should go in. IDGAF if he was only the best returner. There are four kickers and a punter in the HoF and I will argue that Hester was just as important if not even moreso than the rest of them. Imagine Hester returning kicks for a team that was QBed by someone other than Rex loving Grossman. Hester was interviewed on NFL Network last night and mentioned something that I'd forgotten: 14 of his 19 regular season return touchdowns were on punts. He was great at both, but I think since the opening return from Super Bowl XLI (Which would be his 20th total return score) gets replayed so much, it kinda gives people the image of him mainly as a kick returner, rather than a punt returner. What's also interesting with his numbers is they could have been greater, since the Bears limited his return attempts for a couple of years when they were trying to make him a wide receiver. Dude was amazing, and I think a lot of people are pushing for him, so hopefully he'll get a good chance. a neat cape posted:Lo Neal, Mack Strong, and Tony Richardson all doing what they did at the same time was a golden fullback age Don't forget the early 90s fullbacks like Tom Rathman and Moose Johnston. Those guys were awesome too. Hamhandler posted:enshrine the 1978 rule changes first IMO You're ignoring that Don Coryell also had several top 10 offenses with the Cardinals during his stint there from 1973 to 1977, and that was with a group of players far less talented than those he had in San Diego. He made the playoffs with the Cardinals in back to back seasons and had three straight 10-win years (When it was a 14-game season). That franchise has been around since 1920, and prior to the stints of Whisenhunt and Arians that was basically their only period of success. For comparison, prior to that, the hadn't made the playoffs since 1948 and after that wouldn't make the playoffs again outside the weird 1982 strike system until 1998, nor would they get another 10-win season until 2009. The Air Coryell name may have gained its long lasting fame and legacy among NFL fans with the Chargers in the early 80s, but it was first applied to those Cardinals teams in the mid-70s before the rule changes. It's also minimizing the impact of his offensive system, which is still one of the base languages of play calling and terminology in the NFL. His system got taken by guys like Joe Gibbs, Norv Turner, and Mike Martz who then adapted it to the players they had with their teams and it resulted in Super Bowls (In Gibbs case, adjusting it multiple times to fit the skill groups and quarterbacks he had as a coach in Washington, Turner did it as a coordinator in Dallas, and Martz as a coordinator and then coach with the Rams). If Coryell had one major failing, it's that he was hired by some really bad owners who were never truly interested in building great teams and more concerned about their bottom lines (I don't agree with all the owners that have been voted in, but there are a few like Eddie DeBartolo who went all out in helping their teams actually win games). Coryell did a hell of a lot more to change the NFL to the league we know it as today than some coaches who are already in largely because they maybe won a single championship and lasted for a longer tenure with decent owners.
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Dec 31, 2021 16:29
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Devin Hester DeMarcus Ware Patrick Willis Zach Thomas Tony Boselli LeRoy Butler Done!
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Dec 31, 2021 16:32
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surf rock posted:Devin Hester They only vote in a max of a five modern era players, so you’d need to cut someone.
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Dec 31, 2021 16:35
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fartknocker posted:They only vote in a max of a five modern era players, so you’d need to cut someone. fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu-Zach Thomas
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Dec 31, 2021 16:38
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Butler has a better resume than Lynch who is already in. Put him in already.
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Dec 31, 2021 17:31
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Lynch only got in as a sanctioned member of the old boys club. Not really a good comparison point to say if others are worthy.
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Dec 31, 2021 17:57
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Willie Anderson was a transcendent player on bad teams.quote:a Bengals legend at right tackle who enjoyed a 13-year NFL career totaling 195 games in which he allowed only 16 sacks and drew but 13 holding penalties. If he had played for a relevant team he'd have twice the yearly awards and would have been inducted years ago. If the Bengals could somehow add him in his prime to this roster I'd already have reserved my spot for the parade. Eifert Posting fucked around with this message at 18:15 on Dec 31, 2021 |
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Dec 31, 2021 18:06
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Eifert Posting posted:Willie Anderson was a transcendent player on bad teams. I’ll totally believe that, particularly with the praise coming from those he played against. I still think it’ll take time for his case to build.
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Dec 31, 2021 18:08
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This is his 9th year of eligibility. Having seen them both play I would argue that Willie Anderson is a better football player than Andrew Whitworth. Thanks to his stint with the Rams I highly doubt Whitworth will have to wait nearly as long as Willie has, and I'm not optimistic Willie will ever make it. Personally I'd rank Anderson the third best Bengal of all time after Munoz and Riley.
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Dec 31, 2021 18:21
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Eric Allen should be in the HOF or at least get final consideration, especially if Ronde Barber and LeRoy Butler are
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Dec 31, 2021 19:17
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fartknocker posted:You're ignoring that Don Coryell also had several top 10 offenses with the Cardinals during his stint there from 1973 to 1977, and that was with a group of players far less talented than those he had in San Diego. He made the playoffs with the Cardinals in back to back seasons and had three straight 10-win years (When it was a 14-game season). That franchise has been around since 1920, and prior to the stints of Whisenhunt and Arians that was basically their only period of success. For comparison, prior to that, the hadn't made the playoffs since 1948 and after that wouldn't make the playoffs again outside the weird 1982 strike system until 1998, nor would they get another 10-win season until 2009. The Air Coryell name may have gained its long lasting fame and legacy among NFL fans with the Chargers in the early 80s, but it was first applied to those Cardinals teams in the mid-70s before the rule changes. I don't think "good with a historically bad team" is that great of a HOF resume builder when you're talking 0-2 in the playoffs. It's a credit to him and his ability to build a team, but I really think being a HOF coach really should involve winning a championship and having more playoff success than that in general. fartknocker posted:It's also minimizing the impact of his offensive system, which is still one of the base languages of play calling and terminology in the NFL. His system got taken by guys like Joe Gibbs, Norv Turner, and Mike Martz who then adapted it to the players they had with their teams and it resulted in Super Bowls (In Gibbs case, adjusting it multiple times to fit the skill groups and quarterbacks he had as a coach in Washington, Turner did it as a coordinator in Dallas, and Martz as a coordinator and then coach with the Rams). If Coryell had one major failing, it's that he was hired by some really bad owners who were never truly interested in building great teams and more concerned about their bottom lines (I don't agree with all the owners that have been voted in, but there are a few like Eddie DeBartolo who went all out in helping their teams actually win games). Coryell did a hell of a lot more to change the NFL to the league we know it as today than some coaches who are already in largely because they maybe won a single championship and lasted for a longer tenure with decent owners. Yeah, but what are we talking about when we're talking about innovation and the persistent effects of it? I don't think any of us are really qualified to accurately address this- and nor are any of the people who can accurately speak to it going to post here or really have any reason to be anything other than completely complimentary, but nevertheless let's give it a try. If we're talking about an offense in terms of a collection of plays, formations, and tendencies- I don't think that has much of a shelf life. It doesn't in the modern NFL, and I don't think the 80's were any different. You've got 2-3 years before you've got to seriously adjust. No one is running Don Coryell or Bill Walsh's offense in 2021- and I'm not sure if that wasn't the case by like the early 90's. You've got stuff like Jon Gruden giggling to himself over calling a Bill Walsh play in a modern NFL game with the Spider 2 Y Banana thing. Norv Turner, Al Saunders, etc. learned stuff from him- but they did a lot of their own stuff. If we're talking terminology, that's more of a linguistics and logistical achievement than a football one, and then what is the accomplishment there? Is it the best way to describe plays? Was it revolutionary? Can we compare the relative merits of that to a WCO or an Erhardt-Perkins offense? I'm not saying that Don Coryell was Jim Caldwell + patience + some offensive innovation, but I think there's a legitimate reason why he hasn't made it either.
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Dec 31, 2021 21:07
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Don Coryell 100% belongs in the Hall of Fame and so does Marty
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Dec 31, 2021 21:18
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One thing I'll never understand is people who want a small hall. It should be like the NBA, put all the good players in, you already hosed up and put in bad players and front office goons, just even it out and expand the classes to 10 per year until you solve the problem.
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Dec 31, 2021 21:23
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Kalli posted:One thing I'll never understand is people who want a small hall. It should be like the NBA, put all the good players in, you already hosed up and put in bad players and front office goons, just even it out and expand the classes to 10 per year until you solve the problem. Yeah but the NBA has people who actually know something about basketball involved in the process, Football is entirely media people. If you're introducing any sort of nuance to that mess you're going to have a disaster.
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Dec 31, 2021 22:09
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Hamhandler posted:Yeah but the NBA has people who actually know something about basketball involved in the process, Football is entirely media people. If you're introducing any sort of nuance to that mess you're going to have a disaster. Gotta agree with Kalli. The idea of a highly selective Hall with only the most astounding exemplars of football went out the window a long time ago. If we have riff raff like Jerome Bettis, John Lynch, and Brian Urlacher open the doors to everybody.
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Dec 31, 2021 22:16
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Urlacher and Bettis aren't riffraff by any means. Urlacher had four all-pros, DROY and DPOY. Maybe where he played gave him a boost but those are worthy qualifications. Bettis was a pretty great player again who got in due to being a Steeler. But that doesn't mean he didn't deserve to be in the conversation otherwise. Someone gave a decent argument about John Lynch getting in a year ago but I don't remember it.
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Dec 31, 2021 22:23
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as a person who commutes on the Kennedy Expressway i am in favor of removing urlacher from the hall if i no longer have to see 45 billboards of his stupid face shilling for his grotesque hair surgery every loving day.
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Dec 31, 2021 22:44
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I'm a small hall guy, IMO if every fanbase doesn't have at least one snub that makes them want to burn the building to the ground your HOF sucks
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Dec 31, 2021 23:27
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The NFL Hall of Fame isn't getting burned down until they let Art Modell in. After that I give them conservatively 7 days.
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Jan 1, 2022 03:27
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R.D. Mangles posted:as a person who commutes on the Kennedy Expressway i am in favor of removing urlacher from the hall if i no longer have to see 45 billboards of his stupid face shilling for his grotesque hair surgery every loving day. Are those things still up???
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Jan 1, 2022 05:08
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Barudak posted:Are those things still up??? There are so many of them that there are now billboards referring to how many billboards there are.
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Jan 1, 2022 05:38
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