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Can someone help me understand exactly what the point of the Master's plan was? I thought initially he was going to Freaky Friday himself into 13's body but then he actually forced her to regenerate into himself, physical appearance and all. If all he wanted to do was go round looking like himself but pretending to be the doctor and looking into cameras saying "I'm the Doctor and I'm a Bad Dude" why did he need the forced regeneration?
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Oct 27, 2022 12:32
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AttitudeAdjuster posted:Can someone help me understand exactly what the point of the Master's plan was? I thought initially he was going to Freaky Friday himself into 13's body but then he actually forced her to regenerate into himself, physical appearance and all. If all he wanted to do was go round looking like himself but pretending to be the doctor and looking into cameras saying "I'm the Doctor and I'm a Bad Dude" why did he need the forced regeneration? There might be the element of 'the Doctor has possibly-infinite regenerations' going, but my general take was that he saw it not just as a way to finally beat the Doctor, but also possibly a misunderstanding of what 'being the Doctor' means. The notion that if the Doctor is just the continuing biological form, he can become the Doctor by taking that form for himself.
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Oct 27, 2022 12:38
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One plot hole that kind of struck me was: did they actually wrap up the problems in 1916? As it was, they destroyed the Daleks in the volcanos and the Cybermen in UNIT HQ in 2022, but aren't there still a few Cybermen and Daleks in St Petersburg in 1916? And literally one can restart converting people to their race? And did the timeline change so Rasputin just disappeared instead of being shot, stabbed, poisoned, drowned, etc? Is Rasputin's penis still on display in a museum in the world of Doctor Who 2022?
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Oct 27, 2022 12:43
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Plot holes? Chibnall? Surely you must be thinking of a different showrunner, cause he definitely isn't the sort of showrunner who would literally kill the entire loving universe in Flux and not do anything about it. Infinitum fucked around with this message at 13:48 on Oct 27, 2022 |
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Oct 27, 2022 12:48
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OldMemes posted:I'm hoping the Time Lords get restored at some point, even if its only an off world group who have to recolonise Gallifrey. The Master killing them all offscreen felt like it really underminded Moffat's work, and closes down a lot of story opportunities. It was also astoundingly unoriginal
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Oct 27, 2022 13:51
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AttitudeAdjuster posted:Can someone help me understand exactly what the point of the Master's plan was? I thought initially he was going to Freaky Friday himself into 13's body but then he actually forced her to regenerate into himself, physical appearance and all. If all he wanted to do was go round looking like himself but pretending to be the doctor and looking into cameras saying "I'm the Doctor and I'm a Bad Dude" why did he need the forced regeneration? Yeah this didn't really work for me either. Regeneration, forced or not, isn't generally presented as someone else replacing your body and mind, it's about your body changing to a new form, and that's a pretty clear-cut concept. What a regeneration into another pre-existing person actually means isn't that easy to wrap your head around. The Master-Doctor seems to have all the Master's memories - does he have the Doctor's too? Does he retain his experiences from when he was the Doctor when the process is reversed? A simple mindswap would have been much easier to understand. If he just wants to play at being the Doctor and tarnish their reputation, then just, I don't know, go somewhere and pretend you're the Doctor? Just Mawdryn Undead it. And besides, the Doctor's already considered a pretty Bad Dude by a good portion of the universe because of all the poo poo they pulled in the Time War. I think someone already mentioned this uphread, but fun as it was seeing Dhawan in the waistcoat and doing some little Whittaker-isms, it would have been even cooler to see Whittaker play the Master inhabiting the Doctor's body. It's her last episode, give Jodie neat things to do! Wouldn't all those Master-Doctor scenes - yelling to Yaz, threatening the TARDIS, making the little speech on Space Television(?) - be so much more impactful if it was her doing that (wearing the rainbow coat, preferably)?
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Oct 27, 2022 14:04
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If anything, the Master regenerating into Jodie would've made more sense, and you can keep the same basic idea in, where he sucked all her Time Lord/Timeless Child juice out to pull it off so the Doctor is dying For Real, and still do the holograms, or even have them be shifting form to their past selves for real while trying to stop the Master.
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Oct 27, 2022 14:09
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Hang on a loving second, what Power of the Doctor? The gently caress does that title even mean?
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Oct 27, 2022 14:38
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Dabir posted:Hang on a loving second, what Power of the Doctor? The gently caress does that title even mean? I think it might be referring to the Doctor's power to always find a solution, no matter how unlikely. The thing she holds on to when she's on the brink in her own mind.
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Oct 27, 2022 14:53
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Dabir posted:Hang on a loving second, what Power of the Doctor? The gently caress does that title even mean? It's friendship.
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Oct 27, 2022 15:45
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So the Doctor knew all along why she was static-y, but acted confused, like she didn’t know at all, every time she did it?
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Oct 27, 2022 15:50
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Open Source Idiom posted:It's friendship. Not Dan's, he was out of there in the first five loving seconds.
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Oct 27, 2022 16:01
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OldMemes posted:I'm hoping the Time Lords get restored at some point, even if its only an off world group who have to recolonise Gallifrey. The Master killing them all offscreen felt like it really underminded Moffat's work, and closes down a lot of story opportunities. The Time Lords are suppose to be stand ins for the old British political class usually right? off all the times to get rid of them... Also, RTD should ask the Beeb or D+ to have two classic adventures called them the "Classic Adventures of Doctor Who" and just allows anyone pre-nine to get a two hour movie.
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Oct 27, 2022 16:04
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Astroman posted:One plot hole that kind of struck me was: did they actually wrap up the problems in 1916? There's some really confused russian servants pushing a button over and over again listening to Boney M on repeat citing how sexy their priest is, watching futuristic disco ball lights, with several black armoured corpses lying there. Love how Graham just turns up to a volcano in Bolvia several thousand miles away from Sheffield, dressed like hes going to the shops.
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Oct 27, 2022 16:25
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Dabir posted:Hang on a loving second, what Power of the Doctor? The gently caress does that title even mean? The Wedding of River Song said it best quote:The sky is full of a million million voices, saying, “Yes of course. We’ll help.” You’ve touched so many lives, saved so many people. Did you think when your time came you’d really have to do more than just ask? You’ve decided that the universe is better off without you. But the universe doesn’t agree.
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Oct 27, 2022 16:57
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happyhippy posted:Love how Graham just turns up to a volcano in Bolvia several thousand miles away from Sheffield, dressed like hes going to the shops. This is a problem Chibnall has again and again. Stuff happens and you’re waiting for any explanation, and it doesn’t come. It’s like you’re getting about half the story a lot of the time.
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Oct 27, 2022 17:07
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This whole time I thought I’d just missed a line explaining Graham’s presence 
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Oct 27, 2022 17:14
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The_Doctor posted:This is a problem Chibnall has again and again. Stuff happens and you’re waiting for any explanation, and it doesn’t come. It’s like you’re getting about half the story a lot of the time. Like he wrote a 2 hour script, realised it needed stuff cut, ripped out about 25% and... forgot to edit the rest to make up for the missing bits. (I like to call it the Grant Morrison special, cuz Morrison's comics always feel the same way to me)
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Oct 27, 2022 17:34
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Chibnall likes to write his stories starting in media res but then never bothers to go back and write the setup to how we got there, which can be incredibly frustrating to watch. Like, Vinder arrives through a wormhole, but there’s nothing about why he’s come there, who sent him, etc.
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Oct 27, 2022 17:51
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It feels like Chibnall came up with a whole load of ideas that might have been interesting if developed but then didn't have the time, skill or inclination to do that and just chucked them together half-baked. The Master as Rasputin? Sounds awesome. A traitor Dalek recognising that they were no longer true to the Kaled race would be a good hook for an episode. An exploration of the lives of companions post-TARDIS crew could be great. But because everything was rushed and not connected in any satisfying way, none of it landed. At least the episode had a kind of fun energy to it, unlike most of 13's run where the episodes were mostly just plain boring. The fan service was great and it was nice to see 5,6,7 and 8 getting some acknowledgment. The idea of the past Doctors being a bickering gestalt consciousness was a neat touch. Overall, the Chibnall/13 era sucked and won't be missed, but it could have ended on a worse note I suppose.
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Oct 27, 2022 17:53
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happyhippy posted:Love how Graham just turns up to a volcano in Bolvia several thousand miles away from Sheffield, dressed like hes going to the shops. I guarantee if it had been any other showrunner we've had there would have been a line about how he got there. But I equally guarantee the line would have been something like "How did you get here?" "I'm a bus driver. I got a bus!" which explained nothing.
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Oct 27, 2022 17:58
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The_Doctor posted:Like, Vinder arrives through a wormhole, but there’s nothing about why he’s come there, who sent him, etc. His whole purpose is to push the Master a few feet.
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Oct 27, 2022 18:03
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happyhippy posted:Love how Graham just turns up to a volcano in Bolvia several thousand miles away from Sheffield, dressed like hes going to the shops. There are so many things about this episode that don't make sense it's hard to keep track of them, it's like Mr. Burns' various diseases all counteracting each other to keep him alive.
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Oct 27, 2022 18:07
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I think the big takeaway, for me, is that the emotional hook for Chibnall's last episode was trying to be a retread "Journey's End" and utterly failing, especially in the ending where the Doctor teams up with all of these past companions and it's supposed to be a big love-in for the era. Half of that is because Chibnall doesn't have all of his relevant characters on hand to use (Ryan never shows up, Dan isn't in the big finale), and half of that is that he's trying to paper over that with other people's creations. Like, it's one thing to have RTD end the final full season of his take on the show with Tenth Doctor-era characters and companions getting together and saving the day and flying the TARDIS, but when you have like half of them be Chibnall-era characters and half of them be characters created by other teams from years ago, it feels at least a little hollow. It's like Chibnall feels like he can gain relevance? endorsement? authority? for his take on "Doctor Who" by liberally and explicitly tying his version to past ones. And, on some level, it works, but it does sting that stuff like the 5/Tegan and 7/Ace scenes are stuffed into the middle of this special - partially because those aren't Chibnall's characters, so it feels a tad bit unfair that he's the one writing their goodbyes and reconciliations after several decades, and partially because they don't really get the focus they deserve to make those moments truly impactful, when we have to rush on to the next Cyber Masters* attack or whatever. It just feels like fanservice without any underlying philosophy or thematic reason to do so, beyond an idea of "I can, so I should." But I could also extend that criticism to the entirety of this era of the show, so I guess the finale falling under the same dumb umbrella is at least appropriate. * Actually, that goes back to my first point: this is trying to be a big Chibnall-era love-in, but who cared about the Cyber Time Lords or that Ashad character? He was killed off, so why is he even here, and especially working with the guy who killed him? He doesn't really accomplish anything relevant in the story anyway, so why even include him to begin with?
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Oct 27, 2022 18:40
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Wasn’t Vinder rumoured to originally be Captain Jack before Barrowman was blacklisted entirely? At least that would have maybe given him a bit more justification for appearing in this story…
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Oct 27, 2022 19:35
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drat and I was upset at the story-planning during the Tennnt era The next episode is going to trigger me
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Oct 27, 2022 21:17
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The Masters plan hinged on finding a disillusioned Dalek who was prepared to sell out his entire race
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Oct 27, 2022 21:38
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I mean let it be said it was an excellent ep, but you can poke holes in it at just about any point in the plot
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Oct 27, 2022 21:42
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Zaroff posted:Wasn’t Vinder rumoured to originally be Captain Jack before Barrowman was blacklisted entirely? You’ll probably never get confirmation on that if it is true.
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Oct 27, 2022 21:42
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The_Doctor posted:Chibnall likes to write his stories starting in media res but then never bothers to go back and write the setup to how we got there, which can be incredibly frustrating to watch. Like, Vinder arrives through a wormhole, but there’s nothing about why he’s come there, who sent him, etc. He reported in on his communicator on why he was there, he was tracking the energy thingy I enjoyed the episode but agree it was all too much. Vinder and the energy creature, the Dalek traitor, the Cybermen taking over UNIT, all could have been great stand-alone episodes and had more time to elaborate on their plots.
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Oct 28, 2022 00:58
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Figured I'd just drop this here: Doctor Who to get American makeover as Disney takes on British classicquote:Doctor Who is set to be regenerated by Disney, as the US corporation is allowed to give the classic BBC series a Hollywood makeover. quote:However, with Disney+ becoming the Doctor’s new non-UK home, things are about to change. Following the centenary special, “The Power of the Doctor,” the BBC announced that the adventures of incoming Doctor Ncuti Gatwa in season 14 will be streamed internationally on Disney+. However, The Telegraph has found that the deal doesn’t just involve streaming rights but also production support. “[T]he corporate might of Disney will give the show vast budgets beyond the BBC’s means,” the paper reported, “allowing for more cinematic production values and more stars.” With this capital, Doctor Who could now boast resources similar to other Disney+ shows, potentially expanding its storytelling capabilities even further.
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Oct 28, 2022 01:52
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Nah - that Telegraph article has already been called out as bullshit scaremongering and completely misinterpreting the situations. Disney are only making the series available overseas and have no creative input.
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Oct 28, 2022 01:55
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Yeah ain't now way any of that is legit.
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Oct 28, 2022 01:57
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Zaroff posted:Nah - that Telegraph article has already been called out as bullshit scaremongering and completely misinterpreting the situations. Can you provide a link that says that? Googling "Doctor Who Disney plus" doesn't show anything contradicting that report. E: also, why would it be "scaremongering"? It doesn't scare me because I don't like modern DW as it is so Disney getting their hands on it means nothing to me, and I'd think your average modern DW fan in the street would be psyched to get a MCU-style DW with a big budget so they can get even more sweeping emotional moments that are completely unearned. 
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Oct 28, 2022 01:57
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My understanding is that Bad Wolf Productions now has direct control over the Doctor Who IP, not the BBC or Disney https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bad_Wolf_(production_company) The BBC and Disney are just distributors.
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Oct 28, 2022 02:10
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Eddie Murphy gonna sue Gatwa for ripping off his 80s look tho
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Oct 28, 2022 02:12
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Sydney Bottocks posted:also, why would it be "scaremongering"? It doesn't scare me because I don't like modern DW as it is so Disney getting their hands on it means nothing to me, and I'd think your average modern DW fan in the street would be psyched to get a MCU-style DW with a big budget so they can get even more sweeping emotional moments that are completely unearned. I dunno, take your pick: Who has a strong leftist audience so there's natural opposition to Disney. Who's British, Disney is American, so the nationalists get mad. A lot of fans are worried about change full stop. Beyond which, just because you're not scared doesn't mean that the original article wasn't blatant scaremongering. Unless you think the headline "As Jodie Wittaker Exits, should the BBC bin the timelord?" was written in an act of good faith reporting. Whether something bothered you is not the litmus test by which something is judged as "scaremongering" or not lmfao.
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Oct 28, 2022 02:19
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Open Source Idiom posted:Beyond which, just because you're not scared doesn't mean that the original article wasn't blatant scaremongering. Unless you think the headline "As Jodie Wittaker Exits, should the BBC bin the timelord?" was written in an act of good faith reporting. I have no idea why you're having a go at me about this, but whatever. Also again, nobody's providing any proof to the contrary.
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Oct 28, 2022 02:29
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Sydney Bottocks posted:I have no idea why you're having a go at me about this, but whatever. If I said that the Earth has seventeen invisible moons, would you require direct evidence to the contrary before calling me out as full of poo poo?
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Oct 28, 2022 02:35
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Sydney Bottocks posted:I have no idea why you're having a go at me about this, but whatever. I'm not? I'm just trying to talk about your argument and leverage a counterargument against it. Sorry if my tone didn't come across. It's something I'm working on.
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Oct 28, 2022 02:36
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