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Having a different opinion isnt bad faith posting.Alchenar posted:And as per my earlier post, I think the reason D&D has a dearth of high quality threads compared to the niche interest subforums that actually discuss stuff in detail is that the people who know what they are talking about get drowned out by the people who either desperately want you to know how bad America is or who are just really really angry that someone else had another opinion on the internet. You seem to be doing a fair bit of projecting there buddy. Also its blatantly obvious you are posting in bad faith when you describe people with similar opinions to your own as "people that know what they are talking about", having a different view on a nuanced topic doesnt mean someone is wrong or trying to poo poo up the thread.
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Jan 31, 2022 12:06
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For the record, Ronya tends to give the most frank, at times cynical, but always thorough and/or informative links & reads on what's going on in China, and I don't believe I've ever seen someone positive on China-in that thread or the Eurasia thread-ever give them The Business. I don't think people convinced that China is [generally] on the right track believe that it can do no wrong, or is above critique when that critique is convincing.
Neurolimal fucked around with this message at 12:19 on Jan 31, 2022 |
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Jan 31, 2022 12:16
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A big flaming stink posted:I feel like using terms like abuser is hosed up and as a victim of abuse it pisses me the hell off to see such a real harmful thing reduced to points-scoring in internet debates with Even if someone is using a different definition in good faith, they should be able to use a better word going forwards.
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Jan 31, 2022 12:35
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Alchenar posted:And as per my earlier post, I think the reason D&D has a dearth of high quality threads compared to the niche interest subforums that actually discuss stuff in detail is that the people who know what they are talking about get drowned out by the people who either desperately want you to know how bad America is or who are just really really angry that someone else had another opinion on the internet. Holy crap, what a great example of the worst of old-style D&D-think, from your deciding who "knows what they're talking about" to making them an Elite Posting Group to banning others on the subjective grounds of "people who disagree with me or others who think like me." Props for your honesty, though; I'll give you that. Willa Rogers fucked around with this message at 21:47 on Jan 31, 2022 |
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Jan 31, 2022 14:20
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Alchenar posted:And as per my earlier post, I think the reason D&D has a dearth of high quality threads compared to the niche interest subforums that actually discuss stuff in detail is that the people who know what they are talking about get drowned out by the people who either desperately want you to know how bad America is or who are just really really angry that someone else had another opinion on the internet. The lack of good posts is probably due to a lack of posters. Getting rid of posters would result in even fewer good posts.
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Jan 31, 2022 14:37
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Cpt_Obvious posted:The lack of good posts is probably due to a lack of posters. Getting rid of posters would result in even fewer good posts. There have been posters bringing up rape apology and Tara Reade in this thread, I would like to just ask how do you square that with being posting friends with this guy who, previously being a champion of Tara Reade, claimed that the Chinese athlete that was taken away by Chinese authorities, had her name scrubbed from the internet and forced to delete her internet post detailing her rape against a powerful party member, was actually a bad breakup? The user comfortably posts among folks calling out the moderators for rape apology or trying to shut down discussion about Reade. The hypocrisy is palpable, how do you create a community where we can assume any good faith posting regarding sensitive issues where the double standards are like this? Cpt_Obvious posted:Sometimes celebrities don't want to talk about their break ups. It's certainly possible that there was some shady business going down, but at this point we don't even have clear accusations. Instead, we should believe women when they say nothing is wrong. Somaen fucked around with this message at 16:21 on Jan 31, 2022 |
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Jan 31, 2022 16:11
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Somaen posted:There have been posters bringing up rape apology and Tara Reade in this thread, I would like to just ask how do you square that with being posting friends with this guy who, previously being a champion of Tara Reade, claimed that the Chinese athlete that was taken away by Chinese authorities, had her name scrubbed from the internet and forced to delete her internet post detailing her rape against a powerful party member? These whataboutisms are getting out of hand.
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Jan 31, 2022 16:17
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some plague rats posted:Why would people be doing this. What do you imagine is in it for them. Because it seems like you're saying "people posting things I disagree with don't actually believe them, they just have a sinister pro-prc agenda to push" which would not really be in the spirit of d&d, would it This is some pretty amazing burden shifting. Sure, folks could drag up posts from elsewhere screaming about “libs” or “posting is praxis” but expecting the rest of us to read your mind before pointing out bad posting is really something else.
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Jan 31, 2022 16:25
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Cpt_Obvious posted:These whataboutisms are getting out of hand. What a motte and bailey.
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Jan 31, 2022 16:30
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Somaen posted:There have been posters bringing up rape apology and Tara Reade in this thread, I would like to just ask how do you square that with being posting friends with this guy who, previously being a champion of Tara Reade, claimed that the Chinese athlete that was taken away by Chinese authorities, had her name scrubbed from the internet and forced to delete her internet post detailing her rape against a powerful party member, was actually a bad breakup? The user comfortably posts among folks calling out the moderators for rape apology or trying to shut down discussion about Reade. The hypocrisy is palpable, how do you create a community where we can assume any good faith posting regarding sensitive issues where the double standards are like this? You do realise that all the poo poo you claim happened to Peng Shuai didn't actually happen right? Way to use a quoted post that perfectly shows the massive bias at work in the China thread. As you say, the hypocrisy is palpable. I'll say it again, having a different opinion is not unreasonable, especially in the supposed debate and discussion forum. thatfatkid fucked around with this message at 16:33 on Jan 31, 2022 |
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Jan 31, 2022 16:30
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thatfatkid posted:You do realise that all the poo poo you claim happened to Peng Shuai didn't actually happen right? Way to use a quoted post that perfectly shows the massive bias at work in the China thread. Yes that's why she hasn't appeared in public without handlers yet Believe women.... but believe the good and honorable men of the party more 
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Jan 31, 2022 16:35
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thatfatkid posted:You do realise that all the poo poo you claim happened to Peng Shuai didn't actually happen right? Way to use a quoted post that perfectly shows the massive bias at work in the China thread. If its a matter of differing opinions, you don't get to be the arbiter of which one is right and wrong, which is exactly what you just did. And I'm fairly certain that you are not a person in the immediate vicinity of Peng nor are Peng themselves, so as you say, the hypocrisy is palpable.
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Jan 31, 2022 16:41
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CommieGIR posted:If its a matter of differing opinions, you don't get to be the arbiter of which one is right and wrong, which is exactly what you just did. And I'm fairly certain that you are not a person in the immediate vicinity of Peng nor are Peng themselves, so as you say, the hypocrisy is palpable. in this thread, as a mod, why don’t you sit this one out if you’re not capable of holding back your contempt
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Jan 31, 2022 16:48
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For a while the COVID thread had been doing a lot of "what's your source on this" arguing which not only bogs down the thread, but is ultimately futile because of the dearth of high-quality information out there (there's a lot we don't know, every new variant gives us new things that we don't know, and a lot of so-called experts are just pushing their own pet narratives). The thread has been more readable lately, and I give my sincere congratulations to the mods for that.Alchenar posted:And as per my earlier post, I think the reason D&D has a dearth of high quality threads compared to the niche interest subforums that actually discuss stuff in detail is that the people who know what they are talking about get drowned out by the people who either desperately want you to know how bad America is or who are just really really angry that someone else had another opinion on the internet. It takes a lot more time and effort to respond to misinformation than it is to post misinformation in the first place. And even if the wrong post is corrected, the anchor of the original misinformation is difficult to override. I agree that it's frustrating to post in D&D within one's area of expertise, so I usually avoid participating on these topics. But I wouldn't go as far as to state that the people that I have interacted with on these topics are doing so in bad faith just to serve a separate argument. People can be wrong for a number of different reasons (see Smeef's post at https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3992182&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=4#post521120898) and assuming that others aren't simply misinformed or missing a piece of the bigger picture is entirely unfair to the other posters. Ultimately, this is a downside to mods not moderating positions. It's impossible for them to be experts in all fields so they can't moderate the positions, and it would be unfair to ask or expect that of them. But yes, it ultimately leads to D&D posting trending toward "being wrong in the right way" and that anyone wishing to be actually informed on a technical topic should do so by reading the other subforums and threads.
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Jan 31, 2022 16:50
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Hey I think the changes have been pretty good, probably the biggest change is just the attitude at the top. Some previous mods appeared to have palpable open contempt for the users here (just look at some of the previous feedback threads), maybe that happens to everyone eventually due to frustration and burnout, I'm not judging but it did cause problems. Just feeling like mods respect posters and enjoy the discussions makes it feel much better. The moderation has seemed more consistent which I think is probably more important than strictness, I'd much rather have modding that's stricter than I'd prefer if it's consistent, versus modding that's as laid back as I want but arbitrary and unpredictable. It sucks when say, personal insults that mods agree with are allowed under the rule of funny, but if the target hits back they get probed. And I haven't seen that under the new regime. Herstory Begins Now posted:Also good to see the 'let me restate your position into something totally different from what you said, and then get angry about it for 20 posts' get shut down more consistently. Sometimes people are vague though and kinda like to hint at lovely arguments without coming right out with it, and then act victimized when called out, so one other thing I've appreciated is mods noticing that and telling people who are posting vague one-liners to either make a complete argument or cut it out. Koos Group posted:
I see people get hit with sixers all the time for accusing people of bad faith and trolling, with a note saying they should report the offending posts or PM a mod about it rather than attacking them in the thread. So I don't understand why that rule against posting about posters isn't being applied here.
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Jan 31, 2022 17:14
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Delete the just server thread. It's a weird remnant of old D&D where the mods were happy to just let someone be the star of their own weird show. No good discussion is coming out of it and it encourages cult like behavior.
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Jan 31, 2022 17:19
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Gumball Gumption posted:Delete the just server thread. It's a weird remnant of old D&D where the mods were happy to just let someone be the star of their own weird show. No good discussion is coming out of it and it encourages cult like behavior. Goldmine it instead. It did produce some incredible content.
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Jan 31, 2022 17:20
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Lib and let die posted:Goldmine it instead. It did produce some incredible content. Oh good point, yeah it was a great honey pot. Goldmine it.
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Jan 31, 2022 17:21
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I think if you want to cut down on the whataboutism in the US threads, you should probably cut down on the number of people who respond to posts going "the US oppresses people like THIS and China oppresses people like THAT" with dog-brained takes like "the united states never systematically killed civil rights leaders". Like, obviously that's going to result in a US-focused derail.
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Jan 31, 2022 18:13
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Since China thread moderation has been the most contentious issue in this round of feedback, I suppose I should address how I plan to go forward with it before the thread closes later today. Like my first post on the matter implies, I'll have the team moderate against the formal definition of whataboutism, since it's a form of failing to address an argument. As per my second post about it, we'll be moderating comparisons that are indirect and come out of nowhere. This is because such comparisons are a way of shifting the conversation to your own pet issue of US vs. China, which is not only stale but also tends to involve more pure political rhetoric than educational material or original thought. This does not mean you can't compare China to other countries. But the comparison should be direct, the way it's framed as a response should be logical, and ideally it should contain information that's not common knowledge or wouldn't occur to someone.
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Jan 31, 2022 18:44
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Solkanar512 posted:This is some pretty amazing burden shifting. Sure, folks could drag up posts from elsewhere screaming about “libs” or “posting is praxis” but expecting the rest of us to read your mind before pointing out bad posting is really something else. Asking someone to explain their opinion is "burden shifting"?
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Jan 31, 2022 19:26
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VitalSigns posted:Hey I think the changes have been pretty good, probably the biggest change is just the attitude at the top. Some previous mods appeared to have palpable open contempt for the users here (just look at some of the previous feedback threads), maybe that happens to everyone eventually due to frustration and burnout, I'm not judging but it did cause problems. Just feeling like mods respect posters and enjoy the discussions makes it feel much better. I was going to post a bunch of stuff but quoting this covers a lot of it so I'll just do that. +1 to all this. I also want to add that I'm really glad Ralph is no longer a mod. Most of my D&D posting is done in the Current Events thread and even though I don't post much it's nice to see that leftists don't get threadbanned constantly for the high crime of challenging centrist Democrat opinions and occasionally poking fun at them. I also want to say to Koos personally that I didn't trust you at first when you were put in charge of D&D but FWIW I now believe that you're being genuine with all of us and that this isn't some long-term prank on us serious business posters like I originally thought. Thanks for doing your best to make the non-joke forum a better place for non-joke posters. I know that SA is primarily a comedy forum but I've never liked the idea that it should always be a comedy ONLY forum everywhere all the time. I like jokes too and I post jokes in many threads but there have always been serious business subforums and threads since the very beginning and it's nice to have a place to discuss real life stuff and politics with other people. People can make fun of the quality of discourse here all they want but literally everywhere else on the internet is a million times worse. Social media and reddit are cesspools of the dumbest and worst people on the planet. SA is the least terrible place to discuss stuff like this and I for one am really happy to have that.
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Jan 31, 2022 19:40
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Willa Rogers posted:Holy crap, what a great example of the worst of D&D-think, from your deciding who "knows what they're talking about" to making them an Elite Posting Group to banning others on the subjective grounds of "people who disagree with me or others who think like me." Do you want to go into detail what "D&D-think" is? Last I checked you were a top 3 poster in the most active thread in the forum. I think that post is bad too, but do you imagine that reinforcing "D&D posts like this, but we post like this" does anything good?
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Jan 31, 2022 19:47
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Jaxyon posted:Do you want to go into detail what "D&D-think" is? Last I checked you were a top 3 poster in the most active thread in the forum. We must then assume that Willa loves D&D-think, and engages in it at a high level. Elephant Ambush posted:I also want to say to Koos personally that I didn't trust you at first when you were put in charge of D&D but FWIW I now believe that you're being genuine with all of us and that this isn't some long-term prank on us serious business posters like I originally thought. Thanks for doing your best to make the non-joke forum a better place for non-joke posters. Welcome. You weren't the only one who thought that.
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Jan 31, 2022 19:53
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Willa Rogers posted:Get Rid of the Deadwood Forgot to mention, I'm planning to do this, leaving only the rules thread, the Politoons thread (because it's so beloved and immediately accessible), and the Debate Me thread since it's an index.
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Jan 31, 2022 20:02
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It doesn't feel like there's been a whole lot of change to USPol. The old USPol that was sent to CCCC pretty much died and everyone just came back over here. There doesn't seem to have been much success at getting people to break subjects out into their own threads. The Leper's Colony is a lot funnier now, though. I underestimated the power of deadpan humor, especially when it's the same few names showing up several times a week.
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Jan 31, 2022 20:16
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Main Paineframe posted:The Leper's Colony is a lot funnier now, though. I underestimated the power of deadpan humor, especially when it's the same few names showing up several times a week. This entry was great: You are to assume all D&Ders are well-liked and invited to many parties due to our sparkling conversation and open-mindedness. User loses posting privileges for 6 hours.
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Jan 31, 2022 20:19
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Main Paineframe posted:It doesn't feel like there's been a whole lot of change to USPol. The old USPol that was sent to CCCC pretty much died and everyone just came back over here. There doesn't seem to have been much success at getting people to break subjects out into their own threads. Yes, the current event thread has become the general discussion thread with little actual discussion or debate of daily or weekly ongoing events. it's just what current topic are people arguing over in between a post every five pages about a current event that gets mostly ignored.
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Jan 31, 2022 20:21
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:Yes, the current event thread has become the general discussion thread with little actual discussion or debate of daily or weekly ongoing events. it's just what current topic are people arguing over in between a post every five pages about a current event that gets mostly ignored. Guess we slipped a little. I'll try to get it back on track.
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Jan 31, 2022 20:31
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Koos Group posted:Guess we slipped a little. I'll try to get it back on track. Honestly, you're doing great and the trendline is going in the right direction. Give it time and it will get better. my feedback is fairly minor and completely par of the course in USPol!
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Jan 31, 2022 20:39
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Stuff has been mostly better so keep up the good work. CommieGIR absolutely shouldn't be a mod. They've shown time and time again that they cannot help themselves, frequently issue challenges to users and bait them into situations where they can get probed for mod sass. This issue has come up in this thread and the previous mod feedback thread, complete with CommieGIR showing up to stir the pot in the actual mod feedback thread(s). Anyway keep up the good work mostly thanks
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Jan 31, 2022 21:31
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Elephant Ambush posted:I also want to say to Koos personally that I didn't trust you at first when you were put in charge of D&D but FWIW I now believe that you're being genuine with all of us and that this isn't some long-term prank on us serious business posters like I originally thought. Thanks for doing your best to make the non-joke forum a better place for non-joke posters. Seconding this. I've been a lurker for most of the last 16 years (holy poo poo) but have started posting a lot more recently, and when I read Koos Group was going to become a DnD mod I assumed it was going to be a two-week-long gimmick. But the outside perspective, combined with a clear effort to become more active in this community and a decent sense of humor, I feel has really loosened things up while also increasing the overall quality of posting. Excpet for maybe the China thread, but I don't go in there.
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Jan 31, 2022 21:40
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I haven't seen CG bait anyone they're arguing with into getting probed (at least since Koos took over anyway, idk if it happened before or not) They do have kinda a bad habit of taking an imperious tone in arguments, which comes off as threatening from a mod, but this was also acknowledged already as something they'll work on.
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Jan 31, 2022 21:43
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Jaxyon posted:Do you want to go into detail what "D&D-think" is? Last I checked you were a top 3 poster in the most active thread in the forum. I should have said "old-style D&D-think" like during the nasty rodents' tenures modding and when contrary opinions were banned or probated. My fault, and I'll edit that post. eta: I explained what I meant in the post you're asking me to explain what I meant. Koos Group posted:We must then assume that Willa loves D&D-think, and engages in it at a high level. Too true! The modern dnd, I do. Old-style dnd was a loving cesspit. Willa Rogers fucked around with this message at 21:50 on Jan 31, 2022 |
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Jan 31, 2022 21:46
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Moderation is a bit better than it has been over the past few years. I would demod CommieGIR, however. Their quarterly meltdowns are a bad look and it's frankly a little bit amazing that they were able to continue being a mod after going on a probation spree in the midst of one of the last feedback thread. I believe they were the one that probed Coldrice over something related to their COVID simulator. Alternatively, keep them on as a mod because the content we get from those quarterly meltdowns is hilarious.
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Jan 31, 2022 21:53
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VitalSigns posted:They do have kinda a bad habit of taking an imperious tone in arguments, which comes off as threatening from a mod, but this was also acknowledged already as something they'll work on. I can confirm the coming off as threatening thing, but yeah I think there's no harm in giving CG a chance to tone that down now that it's a recognized issue. Especially since the not pushing buttons in an argument thing seems to be on its way to being an actual rule.
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Jan 31, 2022 22:08
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It's now an official rule that mods can't probate someone they're in an argument with, so combined with CGR's recognition that they should be careful with their tone, I'm optimistic this will be less of an issue.
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Jan 31, 2022 22:22
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Sinteres posted:This entry was great: i can see many d&ders being invited to parties regularly blanket parties, sock parties... yknow those sorts of things
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Jan 31, 2022 22:42
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MooselanderII posted:Alternatively, keep them on as a mod because the content we get from those quarterly meltdowns is hilarious. I hadn't considered this. Koos Group posted:It's now an official rule that mods can't probate someone they're in an argument with, so combined with CGR's recognition that they should be careful with their tone, I'm optimistic this will be less of an issue. My other feedback is that you and the others have been doing a very good job of maintaining an open discourse, explaining your reasoning, and being adaptive for the most part. I get that it's a process and this part has been refreshing.
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Jan 31, 2022 22:56
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Koos Group posted:It's now an official rule that mods can't probate someone they're in an argument with, so combined with CGR's recognition that they should be careful with their tone, I'm optimistic this will be less of an issue. This is a good start, but it doesn't prevent other mods from coming in and handing out probes to anyone being rude to their buddies. When mods involved in an argument say something like "I'll get some other mods to look over this" it comes across as "I want to probe you but that would violate the rules so I'll have someone else take a look because there's a good chance they'll think like me" Koos are you the official mod spokeman? Because it's odd to have a feedback thread where half of the mods don't even post anything, even when their specific decisions are being called into question. Commie came by, god bless him, and Fritz and I think GJB but goutpatrol specifically hasn't said anything despite being one of the more active mods in terms of handing out probes?
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Jan 31, 2022 23:16
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