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I’m curious to know if there is an elite trans athlete/competitor who has been excluded from competition. There’s no doubt it happens passively and indirectly. But it seems to me like the people who are actually being currently and directly affected by policies trying to address trans people are 1) elite cis women such as Caster Semenya and 2) non- elite trans kids who just want to play some sportsball. The only trans adult athlete I can think of in this category is the trans man who can’t get a boxing match. Is there anyone else?
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Apr 17, 2022 19:10
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Hawkperson posted:I’m curious to know if there is an elite trans athlete/competitor who has been excluded from competition. There’s no doubt it happens passively and indirectly. But it seems to me like the people who are actually being currently and directly affected by policies trying to address trans people are 1) elite cis women such as Caster Semenya and 2) non- elite trans kids who just want to play some sportsball. The only trans adult athlete I can think of in this category is the trans man who can’t get a boxing match. Is there anyone else? Not exactly excluded, but Patricio Manuel can't get a fight because cismen are too scared to fight him because machismo sexist bullshit. Pre transistion, he was a 5 time amateur women's champion. He won his debut fight as a pro after top surgery and transitioning.
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Apr 17, 2022 19:13
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like i'm not coming at this from a trans ally civil rights position (i think that's something totally separate) if people transitioning are ruining women's sports (lol) i'd be totally fine with addressing that because i think we should have structures in place that allow people to compete in physical activities across the board because it's an enormous part of human development, but i don't see it happening. we don't allow people with various disabilities or conditions or whatever to compete in various sports in all sorts of circumstances and i don't see why it would be any different for trans people (not saing they're disabled). if it's a safety issue or it just completely ruins the established competitive field this is something i would be fine with addressing. im not scared to say trans athletes shouldn't compete if it ruins a sport, because life isn't fair and sport is about making a competitive spectacle that is fun to watch and participate in. but i haven't seen that i'll never get to be mr olympia because i don't have the genetics, discipline, money, or drive for it and that's horseshit and it's not fair but it's reality and we can't just ban everyone that responds well to steroids from bodybuilding (because it would make it terrible). Fluffdaddy posted:Not exactly excluded, but Patricio Manuel can't get a fight because cismen are too scared to fight him because machismo sexist bullshit.
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Apr 17, 2022 19:17
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Fluffdaddy posted:Not exactly excluded, but Patricio Manuel can't get a fight because cismen are too scared to fight him because machismo sexist bullshit. Yeah, that’s who I was thinking of too. It’s just strange to me that we spend all these words discussing the nuances of elite trans women in sport when it seems like that is largely a solved problem, and the real actual current real-life problems are about elite trans men, elite cis women, and trans children.
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Apr 17, 2022 19:24
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These were excellent posts, thanks! Hawkperson posted:I’m curious to know if there is an elite trans athlete/competitor who has been excluded from competition. There’s no doubt it happens passively and indirectly. But it seems to me like the people who are actually being currently and directly affected by policies trying to address trans people are 1) elite cis women such as Caster Semenya and 2) non- elite trans kids who just want to play some sportsball. The only trans adult athlete I can think of in this category is the trans man who can’t get a boxing match. Is there anyone else? Hawkperson posted:Yeah, that’s who I was thinking of too. It’s just strange to me that we spend all these words discussing the nuances of elite trans women in sport when it seems like that is largely a solved problem, and the real actual current real-life problems are about elite trans men, elite cis women, and trans children. I don't see it as a solved problem. The guidelines are changing constantly, largely because most of them are unscientific and don't actually make sense upon scrutiny. All elite trans athletes have to endure an incredible amount of poo poo, and just because their sports' governing bodies are on their side at the moment doesn't mean that couldn't change. BRAKE FOR MOOSE fucked around with this message at 19:53 on Apr 17, 2022 |
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Apr 17, 2022 19:49
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Fluffdaddy posted:As I told Koos privately, there are limits to what is a position that can be tolerated. That's more or less what I told them in private too but apparently it's ok to spout bigoted poo poo because then we can have oppressed minorities do emotional labor to educate the oppressors and hope maybe theyll be nice and take their foot off peoples necks. And this is good and healthy debate.
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Apr 17, 2022 19:54
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Fluffdaddy posted:As I told Koos privately, there are limits to what is a position that can be tolerated. If this means that we've officially dropped the concept where any concept can be argued as long as it's in "good faith" then good. It wasn't ever actually true in practice — mods and IKs would get around it by hovering very carefully with a fine tooth comb for anyone who was promoting wretched ideas and drop them on any narrow pretense, but the rules-around-the-rules alleviation was still vulnerable to someone wanting to drop hot mess in by playing the decorous sealionesque and arguing stridently yet politely in favor of some horrid poo poo like race cleansing or bring back slavery or gay conversion therapy or the holocaust never happened or the uyghurs deserved it or whatever, and I think that's how we got this for as long as we got it
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Apr 17, 2022 19:56
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I think this is a concise microcosm of the trans situation. Trans folk represent an existential threat to gender essentialism, and all of our rickety systems based on gendered segregation are falling under long overdo scrutiny because so many of them simply don't make any sense. Bodily safety in contact sports is about the only thing that lands but even that doesn't make sense around gendered exclusion, there are people who demolish and be demolished by my male body and while those ratios skew along gender norms it's hardly by itself safe for me to fight all comers who happen to be male because I am male, that strikes me as a lazy way to divide things. Sports are cool, and while it would suck to find yourself likely disqualified by the nature of your birth, but that's already the situation at the top level. I think we are pointing to an obvious problem here, but it has nothing to do with transgender athletes and a lot more to do with the fact this lovely system is already broken for so many people but instead of fixing it people are pretending it was working fine until trans folk starting showing up.
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Apr 17, 2022 20:34
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frankly dont think cis ppl should be allowed near a keyboard
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Apr 17, 2022 20:36
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BRAKE FOR MOOSE posted:I don't see it as a solved problem. The guidelines are changing constantly, largely because most of them are unscientific and don't actually make sense upon scrutiny. All elite trans athletes have to endure an incredible amount of poo poo, and just because their sports' governing bodies are on their side at the moment doesn't mean that couldn't change. Do you have an example of guidelines constantly changing in elite sport? My vague understanding from reading this thread is that guidelines for trans participants in elite sports were largely hashed out in the 80s/90s and have mostly stayed the same. Not that these guidelines aren’t unscientific or in need of scrutiny (see: the rules harming Caster Semenya) Total agreement that elite trans athletes have to endure way too much poo poo. Just largely doesn’t currently seem to be related to official guidelines in their sports.
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Apr 17, 2022 20:38
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This excellent summary that Woozy posted covers the continual evolution of regulations and testing methods at the Olympic level. https://www.barbellmedicine.com/blog/shades-of-gray-sex-gender-and-fairness-in-sport/
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Apr 17, 2022 20:52
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Hawkperson posted:Do you have an example of guidelines constantly changing in elite sport? My vague understanding from reading this thread is that guidelines for trans participants in elite sports were largely hashed out in the 80s/90s and have mostly stayed the same. Not that these guidelines aren’t unscientific or in need of scrutiny (see: the rules harming Caster Semenya) No, they've been under constant revision and only started approaching consensus in 2015. In the case of the Olympics, the IOC's 2003 guidelines were insane (required surgery). The 2015 guidelines are what many sports are now following, but they're also very problematic (testosterone maximum of 10 nmol/L for 12 months). The current guidelines are backing off of the 2015 guidelines, telling individual sports to figure it out, and consulting to try to figure out something that makes sense. And these individual sports all have widely varying guidelines even in one country (like the US) -- many US sports have no documented guidelines, some still require surgery, some ban trans athletes outright.
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Apr 17, 2022 20:56
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This thread just seems like a honeypot because there is nothing to debate or discuss, minus the current state of affairs. Trans women and men should be able to compete as their identified gender. period full stop no exclusions. I do not look forward to what my conservative school district is going to come up with in the next few years in relation to these issues. They just got done doing some anti-CRT poo poo so these issues are coming I'm sure.
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Apr 17, 2022 20:58
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:This thread just seems like a honeypot because there is nothing to debate or discuss, minus the current state of affairs. Trans women and men should be able to compete as their identified gender. period full stop no exclusions. The debate or discussion is, given that moral first principle, how do we actually make that happen given that the top 10-30% of performances in many sports are by men. Do we set standards for transgender athletes? Do we recategorize sport by a less problematic category than gender? Do we eliminate categories entirely?
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Apr 17, 2022 21:05
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Hawkperson posted:I’m curious to know if there is an elite trans athlete/competitor who has been excluded from competition. There’s no doubt it happens passively and indirectly. But it seems to me like the people who are actually being currently and directly affected by policies trying to address trans people are 1) elite cis women such as Caster Semenya and 2) non- elite trans kids who just want to play some sportsball. The only trans adult athlete I can think of in this category is the trans man who can’t get a boxing match. Is there anyone else? https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/560012-transgender-runner-ruled-ineligible-for-us-olympic-trials/ A trans athlete was ruled inelegible for Olympic trials for not maintaining a testosterone level of 5nmol/L or less for at least a year. The 5 nmol/L requirement is higher than I've seen for trans women in other sports. Though, I think those events had a split standard for cis/trans women, where cis women have a higher permissible levels. In hurdles, it's 5 nmol/L for everyone.
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Apr 17, 2022 21:15
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doingitwrong posted:This excellent summary that Woozy posted covers the continual evolution of regulations and testing methods at the Olympic level. https://www.barbellmedicine.com/blog/shades-of-gray-sex-gender-and-fairness-in-sport/ BRAKE FOR MOOSE posted:No, they've been under constant revision and only started approaching consensus in 2015. In the case of the Olympics, the IOC's 2003 guidelines were insane (required surgery). The 2015 guidelines are what many sports are now following, but they're also very problematic (testosterone maximum of 10 nmol/L for 12 months). The current guidelines are backing off of the 2015 guidelines, telling individual sports to figure it out, and consulting to try to figure out something that makes sense. And these individual sports all have widely varying guidelines even in one country (like the US) -- many US sports have no documented guidelines, some still require surgery, some ban trans athletes outright. Thank you, I appreciate it! BRAKE FOR MOOSE posted:The debate or discussion is, given that moral first principle, how do we actually make that happen given that the top 10-30% of performances in many sports are by men. Do we set standards for transgender athletes? Do we recategorize sport by a less problematic category than gender? Do we eliminate categories entirely? Yeah. In order to answer those questions, I think we need to figure out how much of overrepresentation of men in elite sports performance is specifically because men as a group are physiologically advantaged. In certain sports, it seems like the dominance of men is artificially supported - Olympic shooting for an obvious one, but I’m curious to know how soccer would change if it were coed, for example. I bet some of this is addressed in that barbell medicine article, which I’m still working through.
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Apr 17, 2022 21:25
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Hawkperson posted:I’m curious to know if there is an elite trans athlete/competitor who has been excluded from competition. There’s no doubt it happens passively and indirectly. But it seems to me like the people who are actually being currently and directly affected by policies trying to address trans people are 1) elite cis women such as Caster Semenya and 2) non- elite trans kids who just want to play some sportsball. The only trans adult athlete I can think of in this category is the trans man who can’t get a boxing match. Is there anyone else? fwiw in reading up on that, I also found one of the more extreme examples I've seen of faux concern for the integrity of women's sports as a cover for bigotry. There's a few recent right wing articles that come up when you search for trans women and rugby, cheering on a coach trying to get trans women banned from his high school rugby league after some injuries on the field involving a trans athlete...said school being in Barrigada, Guam (population 7956, per wikipedia). Obviously the subject of the story in question being remote from the continental US has no bearing on the importance of the lived experience of the athlete(s) involved, I just really kinda doubt that your average right wing media consumer would find a story about high school sports injuries in the Guam Daily Post to be newsworthy were a key fact different. eviltastic fucked around with this message at 21:42 on Apr 17, 2022 |
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Apr 17, 2022 21:33
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This topic gets more in the weeds when you consider sports with ironclad gender roles like figure skating, which would require a full head's up in revision due to how the sport is stratified.
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Apr 17, 2022 21:38
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Just want to say that I appreciate the people making good posts and posting interesting links because some really drat interesting stuff has been posted in here in between the various dumb poo poo getting posted in circles for pages at a time.Hawkperson posted:I’m curious to know if there is an elite trans athlete/competitor who has been excluded from competition. There’s no doubt it happens passively and indirectly. But it seems to me like the people who are actually being currently and directly affected by policies trying to address trans people are 1) elite cis women such as Caster Semenya and 2) non- elite trans kids who just want to play some sportsball. The only trans adult athlete I can think of in this category is the trans man who can’t get a boxing match. Is there anyone else? Yeah it happens: structurally trans athletes who have recently transitioned are kept from competing in most sports/federations/sporting bodies because most regulations around trans athletes have some duration of treatment/x months of tests at or under y hormones requirements. Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 22:36 on Apr 17, 2022 |
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Apr 17, 2022 22:27
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UCS Hellmaker posted:It's amazing we need to have a just asking questions idiot keep trolling a thread, and it be considered ok because the head mod wants to think that debate and evading points is valid in a thread about trans people Its absolutely, utterly ludicrous that people are getting probated for calling this cigar a cigar as another poster put it. Cool has utterly failed to back up his assertions that are buried in his Just Asking hypothetical. Its absolutely ludicrous that he thinks this is a study that shows absolutely anything at all. quote:The levels of physical activity of the transwomen compared with cisgender women in the studies were not reported. That is a quote from one of them. The people who conducted the study failed to even see that there was any sort of baseline that would allow for them to make a meaningful comparison. It's lunacy to think that the studies Cool cited have any sort of meaningful preliminary evidence in them. The refusal on cools part to engage with this is incredibly dishonest.
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Apr 18, 2022 00:29
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Miss Broccoli posted:Its absolutely, utterly ludicrous that people are getting probated for calling this cigar a cigar as another poster put it. CC got banned from the thread, she's not coming back. You can move on
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Apr 18, 2022 00:32
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. already posted
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Apr 18, 2022 00:33
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I apologise. I saw others using he earlier and not getting challenged by her herself.Fluffdaddy posted:Sorry to step on toes here. While I don't think you are arguing out of bad faith, I do think you are a bigot. You gave the game away when you said sports were divided by sex. Anyone approaching this subject from a non bigot rear end in a top hat perspective knows that sex and gender are not the same. Sports are divided by gender at this point. Your hypotheticals are horse poo poo and you continue to ignore points that go against your hypotheticals. I don't want to see your face in this thread anymore. Thank you for doing this. I think as an admin you probably need to enforce that being an openly obvious bigot is not something that should be acceptable.
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Apr 18, 2022 00:34
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Personally I think cis people should be banned from competing (why is it always debating trans people and not the reverse?) If they're not on HRT there's no way to be sure their hormones are in regulation, we need to be sure to protect the sanctuary of sports.
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Apr 18, 2022 00:54
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This thread has run its course. Thanks to those who managed to have a conversation and bring up interesting points.
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Apr 18, 2022 01:42
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