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How are u posted:I apologize for the confusion. I should probably be saying "cis-women", right? My mistake. I have no doubt that you know exactly what you were posting. You always do. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 6, 2022 18:47
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Perestroika posted:That touches on a relevant point: Sports, particularly at the higher levels, plain aren't fair. There are dozens if not hundreds of external and internal factors that will give one competitor an advantage over another. Wealth is a big obvious one, for a start. A wealthy athlete will have more time to devote to their training, with better facilities and trainers, and that's often reflected in the backgrounds of many top athletes. Physiological factors naturally also play into it, of course. Height, width, hypermobility, overall proportions, hormone levels, and so on can all make a major difference depending on your discipline. Michael Phelps is a common example in this case, as he's basically a walking set of ideal genetic factors for swimming fast. I'm quoting this post because it's an issue that doesn't get brought up often, in debates on this subject, and it deserves to be emphasized. Here's another issue that I just don't see mentioned very often: women's sports are almost always underfunded, underpromoted, neglected and ignored in comparison to men's sports. This core problem is absolutely not new, and makes it harder for women to get into sports, whether for recreation or as a profession. There are fewer opportunities, and the money isn't there. Making women's sports inclusive of trans women should bring a boost in the popularity of women's sports - more sponsors, more advertising opportunities, more money, more sports scholarships and therefore more opportunities for women and girls to compete. Trans women athletes are such a microscopic percentage of women athletes that the vast majority of these new beneficiaries will be cis women athletes. Why am I convinced that inclusive women's sports will boost the popularity (and money spent on) women's sports? Because the younger generations hold inclusivity as a virtue more than ever before. That's an ongoing culture change (in the USA at least, and I think in some other parts of the Americas and Europe? I'm not as sure about the cultures of nations beyond the Americas and Europe), and anyone who doesn't get onboard will see their profits decline as the older generations die off.
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Apr 6, 2022 18:51
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People very concerned with fairness in women's athletics suddenly very unconcerned with the fact that 1% of competitive swimmers are black because of a centuries long history of black people not having access to pools.
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Apr 6, 2022 19:02
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Biological males have no business competing athletically against biological females in any sport where the indisputable physical advantages of males is a factor, for example sprinting versus curling. That said I don't give a gently caress about women's sports, and as a man this issue doesn't affect me in the slightest, so I'll let the broads fight their own battle on this one. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 6, 2022 19:22
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Internaut! posted:Biological males have no business competing athletically against biological females in any sport where the indisputable physical advantages of males is a factor, for example sprinting versus curling. Thanks for your contribution!!!!
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Apr 6, 2022 19:30
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Internaut! posted:Biological males have no business competing athletically against biological females in any sport where the indisputable physical advantages of males is a factor, for example sprinting versus curling. You gonna poo poo and run or stick around to defend this view? I'd call this an obvious troll but when millions of people have this exact view I don't know that it matters. Terminal autist posted:Is there any general polls out about the issue? My default assumption is that America is hell country and the average American just being insanely cruel and stupid makes it a losing proposition electorally. https://news.gallup.com/poll/350174/mixed-views-among-americans-transgender-issues.aspx https://globalsport.asu.edu/resources/global-sport-institute-national-snapshot-poll-summer-2021 Jaxyon fucked around with this message at 19:58 on Apr 6, 2022 |
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Apr 6, 2022 19:50
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Jaxyon posted:You gonna poo poo and run or stick around to defend this view? What is there to defend? Males in general are significantly stronger and faster than females which is why women's sports exist in the first place. Do people seriously argue this in 2022? Do they imagine the biggest richest teams in the world would turn down a Tomasina Brady or Christine Ronaldo if a woman could play as well as the men?
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Apr 6, 2022 20:42
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Why have women's sports at all? People are equal and should compete on their merits.
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Apr 6, 2022 20:42
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Weren't organized women's sports essentially invented and promoted by the American government during the Cold War as nothing more than a way to pad Olympic medal counts when they noticed they weren't tallied by gender?
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Apr 6, 2022 20:46
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Internaut! posted:What is there to defend? Males in general are significantly stronger and faster than females which is why women's sports exist in the first place. Taking estrogen gets your body's muscles to start diminishing pretty quick actually, so it sounds like you have literally no idea what you're talking about and you don't know poo poo.
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Apr 6, 2022 20:48
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Internaut! posted:Biological males have no business competing athletically against biological females in any sport where the indisputable physical advantages of males is a factor, for example sprinting versus curling. Please refrain from disowning or preemptively expressing unwillingness to defend arguments you're making, particularly ones that are stated in strong terms like that.
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Apr 6, 2022 20:56
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Internaut! posted:What is there to defend? Males in general are significantly stronger and faster than females which is why women's sports exist in the first place. Don't you think it would be a good idea to understand how transgender people in sports exist before denying the reality of a bunch of people? Or do you think you can just shoot from the hip on this because you're unlikely to ever have to face consequences for your ignorance? Also a lot of women's divisions exist because women were beating men when it was combined. Olympic biathlon is a recent example.
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Apr 6, 2022 20:56
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Mischievous Mink posted:Taking estrogen gets your body's muscles to start diminishing pretty quick actually, so it sounds like you have literally no idea what you're talking about and you don't know poo poo. I wouldn't presume to gatekeep transness by requiring some sort of medical treatment regime, would you? What do you say to people around the world who are trans but don't have access to such treatment, or can't afford it? Would you merely deny them access to women's sports, or to the ability to identify as trans altogether?
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Apr 6, 2022 21:01
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Internaut! posted:I wouldn't presume to gatekeep transness by requiring some sort of medical treatment regime, would you? What do you say to people around the world who are trans but don't have access to such treatment, or can't afford it? Would you merely deny them access to women's sports, or to the ability to identify as trans altogether? Being transgender has nothing to do with affirmation/transition treatment. However to compete in sports, there are requirements about testosterone levels. In fact, a transgender man who was not taking any hormones competed in the womens 100 in the same event as Lia Thomas and nobody said anything about it. He also beat her.
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Apr 6, 2022 21:05
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Jaxyon posted:denying the reality of a bunch of people? I did nothing of the sort. Jaxyon posted:Or do you think you can just shoot from the hip on this because you're unlikely to ever have to face consequences for your ignorance? What sort of "consequences" should a person face for being ignorant of trans athletes in sport? That sounds rather like a threat. Jaxyon posted:Also a lot of women's divisions exist because women were beating men when it was combined. Haven't heard of that one and in the most recent Olympics the men handily beat the women on the same course according to the final results I can see. Regardless I think we can agree in this case "a lot" is actually "very very few" and I'm the first to admit I don't see the need for gender separation in sports like curling for example, but maybe even there males have an advantage. Internaut! fucked around with this message at 21:12 on Apr 6, 2022 |
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Apr 6, 2022 21:08
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Jaxyon posted:Yes get familiar with "12%" because that study is one of the only ones in existence that shows any sort of advantage at all and the bigots will use it as a bludgeon til the end of time. It's hilarious because even the conclusion mostly refutes their talking points. Is anyone familiar with the studies this rear end in a top hat here cites: https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/txo13s/comment/i3nbtov/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3 The first one is the same (of course) but there are a bunch more: https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40279-020-01389-3, https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25377496/.
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Apr 6, 2022 21:09
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Jaxyon posted:Being transgender has nothing to do with affirmation/transition treatment. However to compete in sports, there are requirements about testosterone levels. So low-T males can compete in women's sport without identifying as trans? No, and the reason being there's more to male advantage in sport than just hormone levels. Internaut! fucked around with this message at 21:14 on Apr 6, 2022 |
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Apr 6, 2022 21:11
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Hipster Occultist posted:It's never been about fairness, it's just a way for CHUDs to poo poo on another group of people while also claiming the moral high ground because they're "protecting women." This is not an issue that can be boiled down just to 'us vs CHUDs' (god im loving sick of that word). Plenty of people who would have identified as 'very liberal' and now as 'very progressive' are opposed to transgender athletes , because It's Not Fair. Which, yeah, gently caress that obviously
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Apr 6, 2022 21:16
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Internaut! posted:I did nothing of the sort. You have made broad statements about "biological males" and what advantages they have that indicate you have zero knowledge about transgender athletics. quote:What sort of "consequences" should a person face for being ignorant of trans athletes in sport? That sounds rather like a threat. This is just fragility. "ARE YOU THREATENING ME". Please. The point is your ignorance will get you very little social blowback or cause you very little problems because transgender people are so marginalized that that you can continue to be ignorant and post ignorant takes. In ways that ignorant takes about, say, black folks wouldn't fly. quote:Haven't heard of that one and in the most recent Olympics the men handily beat the women on the same course according to the final results I can see. Regardless I think we can agree in this case "a lot" is actually "very very few" and I'm the first to admit I don't see the need for gender separation in sports like curling for example, but maybe even there males have an advantage. You keep talking about men competing against women directly, but this thread is about women competing against women. Transgender women are women. Jaxyon fucked around with this message at 21:27 on Apr 6, 2022 |
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Apr 6, 2022 21:23
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Internaut! posted:So low-T males can compete in women's sport without identifying as trans? Feel free to go into this. In detail. Fuligin posted:This is not an issue that can be boiled down just to 'us vs CHUDs' (god im loving sick of that word). Plenty of people who would have identified as 'very liberal' and now as 'very progressive' are opposed to transgender athletes , because It's Not Fair. Which, yeah, gently caress that obviously That is true. Just like white supremacy is bipartisan, so is transphobia. Though in my experience transphobia tends to go a lot more with conservativism as it's closely tied with homophobia and misogyny. Jaxyon fucked around with this message at 21:29 on Apr 6, 2022 |
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Apr 6, 2022 21:26
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Jaxyon posted:You have made broad statements about "biological males" and what advantages they have that indicate you have zero knowledge about transgender athletics. Males in general are significantly stronger and faster than females, there is no debate about this in any serious circle. This does not even address transgender athletics much less make a statement about them. Jaxyon posted:The point is your ignorance will get you very little social blowback or cause you very little problems because transgender people are so marginalized that that you can continue to be ignorant and post ignorant takes. In ways that ignorant takes about, say, black folks wouldn't fly. Like Jimmy the Greek pointing out that African-Americans were bred for centuries to be big and strong, and this is why the NFL is full of African-Americans descended from slaves, while there's been like 3 Africans ever in the league not descended from African-American slaves? I'm not sure what social blowback people would face for this, but why should they? Unpalatable truths remain truths after all. Jaxyon posted:You keep talking about men competing against women directly, but this thread is about women competing against women. As you can see from my posts I've been exceedingly careful to separate sex from gender except where impossible, such as discussing Olympic biathlon which is split by gender. That's on the IOC. (USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST) (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 6, 2022 21:52
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Internaut! posted:Males in general are significantly stronger and faster than females, there is no debate about this in any serious circle. This does not even address transgender athletics much less make a statement about them. Then why did you bring it up? quote:Like Jimmy the Greek pointing out that African-Americans were bred for centuries to be big and strong, and this is why the NFL is full of African-Americans descended from slaves, while there's been like 3 Africans ever in the league not descended from African-American slaves? I'm not sure what social blowback people would face for this, but why should they? Unpalatable truths remain truths after all. I was wrong, you're actually willing to repeat racist poo poo uncritically as well! I guess I shouldn't be surprised. quote:As you can see from my posts I've been exceedingly careful to separate sex from gender except where impossible, such as discussing Olympic biathlon which is split by gender. That's on the IOC. You literally haven't been able to separate sex and gender in this very post. The IOC allows transgender athletes just as the NCAA does. You don't know what you're talking about which is why you keep jumping around between justifications instead of producing data or making a fact-driven argument.
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Apr 6, 2022 22:19
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Internaut! posted:Like Jimmy the Greek pointing out that African-Americans were bred for centuries to be big and strong, and this is why the NFL is full of African-Americans descended from slaves, while there's been like 3 Africans ever in the league not descended from African-American slaves? I'm not sure what social blowback people would face for this, but why should they? Unpalatable truths remain truths after all. This is absolutely not true for one thing. As for your other point, ignoring everything else nobody seems to demand special rules and regulations when a cisgendered individual is absolutely dominant in a sport. Nobody with any credibility suggested excluding Tiger Woods or the Williams sisters from competitions because they were too good. Vincent Van Goatse fucked around with this message at 22:27 on Apr 6, 2022 |
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Apr 6, 2022 22:23
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The answer to the topic question: obviously yes I do have a side question that’s kind of related. With all of the articles/discussions around this topic, why aren’t intersex athletes also discussed with them or even much at all? For those who are against transgender athletes competing, it’s probably inconvenient. But including them in the discussion seems, to me, to strengthen the argument that our gender (or sex) categorization of many sports should probably just be rethought anyways. Hopefully this doesn’t make it seem like I’m tokenizing either intersex or transgender people, because that’s not my intent. It just seems like they both face a lot of the same discrimination in sports Kalit fucked around with this message at 22:48 on Apr 6, 2022 |
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Apr 6, 2022 22:27
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Literally "african slaves bred to be fleet of foot so they're good at sports" out of nowhere to justify transphobia in 2022. Neat!
Jaxyon fucked around with this message at 22:35 on Apr 6, 2022 |
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Apr 6, 2022 22:28
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Internaut! posted:Like Jimmy the Greek pointing out that African-Americans were bred for centuries to be big and strong, and this is why the NFL is full of African-Americans descended from slaves, while there's been like 3 Africans ever in the league not descended from African-American slaves? I'm not sure what social blowback people would face for this, but why should they? Unpalatable truths remain truths after all. Did you really pull a loving  ?
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Apr 6, 2022 22:33
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Also "this subset of people are common in this sport" doesn't necceitate them being better suited to it somehow. Correlation, causation, etc.
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Apr 6, 2022 22:35
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Jaxyon posted:Literally "african slaves bred to be fleet of foot so they're good at sports" out of nowhere to justify transphobia in 2022. Neat! It's loving embarrassing. Like c'mon, find some newer material at least.
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Apr 6, 2022 22:41
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:This is absolutely not true for one thing. It sure is odd how with all these "natural advantages" black don't dominate the sports wealthy people people play, with only a few notable exceptions.
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Apr 6, 2022 22:47
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Jaxyon posted:It sure is odd how with all these "natural advantages" black don't dominate the sports wealthy people people play, with only a few notable exceptions. I mean I would be perfectly happy to see the NFL slap restrictions on Tom Brady.
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Apr 6, 2022 22:49
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It bears reiteration as there are links posted in the thread: read the scientific conclusions on it. They are cut and dry about time on testosterone blockers and estrogen to equivalent. As far as youth sports are concerned, children are roughly equal (with women developing faster and thus having ab advantage) until puberty. However, puberty blockers work and are prescribed for early-onset puberty all the time. They can be prescribed for youth who feel they are a different gender. When they are adults, they can choose. If they are among those that change their minds, can be given hormones to start puberty. Stuff enough puberty hormones into anyone, even those who have finished puberty, and they will go through it
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Apr 6, 2022 22:55
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:I mean I would be perfectly happy to see the NFL slap restrictions on Tom Brady. These type of people also think that coaching and QB position is more skewed to whites because of "intellect".
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Apr 6, 2022 23:04
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From what I've read there's no competitive advantage for a transwoman who began HRT before hitting puberty, so I don't see any reason why they should be barred from competition. But testosterone has a huge influence on skeletal growth throughout puberty, which certainly gives an advantage in some sports - things like height in basketball and volleyball, arm length/reach in combat sports, hand/foot size in swimming, etc. And whether or not those are "unfair" advantages seems entirely subjective to me? I don't think there's a simple one-size-fits-all answer for those cases. Personally, I'd lean towards allowing transwomen to compete, and then in 20 years if every center in the WNBA and every middle blocker at the Olympics is transgender, maybe then you reevaluate.
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Apr 7, 2022 00:09
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I can't imagine even twenty years from now there will be so many transgender athletes as to make up a commanding presence in any pro sport, regardless of any supposed "advantages" they have. For all the media firestorms over this issue it really involves a very small number of people, to the point where any attempt at trying to study things statistically could end up drowned out by background noise (e.g. maybe one trans athlete amassed a huge winning record in a local division with five people, four of whom suck). And again even things like being taller might give an advantage but it's hardly fair to apply a restriction to a transgender athlete for being taller than their peers and not, say, Manute Bol (please ignore the fact that Manute Bol is not only retired from basketball but also dead). I say just let 'em play. Vincent Van Goatse fucked around with this message at 00:26 on Apr 7, 2022 |
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Apr 7, 2022 00:22
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Yeah sports are extremely not a level playing field on a billion levels already. Below pro level most sports are drat near pay to win (as in if you can get your kid quality coaching and good trainers and make sure they have the free time to practice... they will be extremely good at a given sport). On top of that sports are already unfair because of physical/genetic differences. It's doubly absurd because people hugely overstate the impact of hormones in basically anything that isn't literally just a contest of muscle mass vs muscle mass (which is actually very few sports). 95% of any sport is practice, coaching, nutrition/conditioning, game knowledge, and mindset stuff. It's not until you get to a very high level in sports where basically everyone is already maximizing those factors that individual hormonal differences are the determining factor. Imo everyone should be able to compete in every sport and it should be encouraged cuz sports are good for people and, especially for trans kids, it's a good way to get a community. Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 00:55 on Apr 7, 2022 |
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Apr 7, 2022 00:51
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Squinty posted:From what I've read there's no competitive advantage for a transwoman who began HRT before hitting puberty, so I don't see any reason why they should be barred from competition. But testosterone has a huge influence on skeletal growth throughout puberty, which certainly gives an advantage in some sports - things like height in basketball and volleyball, arm length/reach in combat sports, hand/foot size in swimming, etc. And whether or not those are "unfair" advantages seems entirely subjective to me? I don't think there's a simple one-size-fits-all answer for those cases. Personally, I'd lean towards allowing transwomen to compete, and then in 20 years if every center in the WNBA and every middle blocker at the Olympics is transgender, maybe then you reevaluate. Transgender athletes have been allowed in all of these sports for years or decades. The Olympics in particular has never had a transgender athlete medal that I'm aware of and they've allowed it for nearly 20 years. If you're concerned that those things might be a specific advantage for trans people, feel free to provide data to support that argument. Transgender athletes dominating sports is a fantasy problem based on people making up dire scenarios to justify their discomfort with a marginalized group, just like bathroom bills. It's a non-issue that is being ramped up based on culture war fears. Jaxyon fucked around with this message at 01:33 on Apr 7, 2022 |
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Apr 7, 2022 01:00
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I'm of the opinion that government should stay out of the business of sports leagues and athletics associations when possible. The rules for trans participants are possibly/probably going to be different for running than they would be for boxing and that's okay. It definitely is a sure-fire easy win for the GOP, though. I know it's entirely anecdotal, but my dad hasn't voted Republican in twenty years and has iced relations with a lot of old relatives because he realized how racist they are, but as much progress as my Dad has made on race he goes on about PEDs and hormone therapies and whatnot when it comes to this issue, and "protecting the many" even if it's a sad inconvenience to an occasional individual who wanted to transition and be a competitive athlete at the same time. Obviously the pundit shitbags of the world are going to distort the issue to absurdist extremes, pretending that someone who looks like Schwarzenegger in his prime can just put on a dress and compete against women weightlifters on the same day. But the people who buy into the idea of strong inherent immutible differences between man and woman (like Dad, who bought Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus in the early 90s and seems to believe in that book's oft-criticized idea that the sexes have a big old gap divides them) will continue to believe that in 25 years womens sports will be an all-transfemme competition if we're not careful. If you don't buy into the idea that the gender binary exists and is all-powerful, trans athletes a lot less of an issue. But that position is still held by only a minority of the public.
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Apr 7, 2022 01:59
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Jaxyon posted:Transgender athletes have been allowed in all of these sports for years or decades. The Olympics in particular has never had a transgender athlete medal that I'm aware of and they've allowed it for nearly 20 years. Do I need data to support the argument that tall people are better at basketball? I think the fact that there have been very few successful trans athletes points to the reality that there are still massive social and structural barriers preventing them from engaging in sport, regardless of what the IOC's or anyone else's rules say. Being allowed to compete in the Olympics doesn't mean much in most sports if you aren't allowed to compete in grade school.
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Apr 7, 2022 02:06
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What's your point here? Many things can be an advantage or disadvantage at a sport. Like Michael Phelps and his lower production of lactic acid, or those dastardly lefties.
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Apr 7, 2022 02:14
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Bear Enthusiast posted:What's your point here? Many things can be an advantage or disadvantage at a sport. Like Michael Phelps and his lower production of lactic acid, or those dastardly lefties. Looks like you didn't read the quoted poster's previous response! Hope this helps. Squinty posted:From what I've read there's no competitive advantage for a transwoman who began HRT before hitting puberty, so I don't see any reason why they should be barred from competition. But testosterone has a huge influence on skeletal growth throughout puberty, which certainly gives an advantage in some sports - things like height in basketball and volleyball, arm length/reach in combat sports, hand/foot size in swimming, etc. And whether or not those are "unfair" advantages seems entirely subjective to me? I don't think there's a simple one-size-fits-all answer for those cases. Personally, I'd lean towards allowing transwomen to compete, and then in 20 years if every center in the WNBA and every middle blocker at the Olympics is transgender, maybe then you reevaluate.
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Apr 7, 2022 02:19
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