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Sedisp posted:Hey Koos I got a wild idea for even the bare minimum of they're not really engaging. If there is a pretty direct question asked and the just asking questions guy refuses to ever engage with a pointed challenge on their position and instead immediately ignores it to focus on "pls dont insult me" maybe they aren't actually engaging? If you're referring to BIG-DICK-BUTT-gently caress, they were just probated for bad faith.
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Apr 17, 2022 15:45
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Colonel Cool posted:Nothing high school level or lower, no matter what. Above that, none currently, with the potential for "some" depending on what the eventual data shows, what the experts in the field decide, and what our society eventually decides our philosophical stance on unfairness is. our society's philosophical stance on fairness in sports is based ona bullshit horatio algier view that it's all hard work and bootstraps that make you the best. this is why we ban steroids and wring our hands to much to stop olympic athletes from taking sudafed but then let water-ape freaks like michael phelps still compete it's better to just assume there's no problem here (because we havent seen one), and if the data comes out and all of a sudden all 20 elite trans athletes in the usa win all the trophies and no scholarships or trophies are left for cis women then maybe talk about it? but it seems like the people arguing against this are either trying to maintain an illusion of fairness that doesn't exist, or are trying to oppress trans people nobody watches women's sports anyway it is shocking and suspicious to me that all of a sudden people care about this
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Apr 17, 2022 15:47
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Colonel Cool posted:So it's saying that trans women definitely for sure have no level of competitive advantage in any physical area whatsoever and the subject doesn't need to be studied any further? You keep pointing to the unsubstantiated possibility that there might, somewhere, someday, be a trans woman who has a physical advantage. You should have to name a single trans woman who has had an advantage before you continue.
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Apr 17, 2022 15:53
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Colonel Cool posted:So it's saying that trans women definitely for sure have no level of competitive advantage in any physical area whatsoever and the subject doesn't need to be studied any further? Look at this great example of good faith argumentation.
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Apr 17, 2022 15:53
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i'm sympathetic to the concern shown for the mediocre cis athlete that doesn't make the top 10 because a trans athlete bumped them out, but rather than reducing the trans person's victory to their gender identity, the losing cis athlete should comfort themselves by claiming their opponents were doping or cheating as is tradition and a non-bigoted position
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Apr 17, 2022 15:55
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jarofpiss posted:it's better to just assume there's no problem here (because we havent seen one), and if the data comes out and all of a sudden all 20 elite trans athletes in the usa win all the trophies and no scholarships or trophies are left for cis women then maybe talk about it? but it seems like the people arguing against this are either trying to maintain an illusion of fairness that doesn't exist, or are trying to oppress trans people I'm all for waiting and seeing because we absolutely don't have enough data to make strong statements one way or another yet. What I object to is when people get incredibly ideologically dug in to the position that there absolutely definitely for sure is no problem whatsoever and even suggesting the possibility is transphobic. Because that's not a way to make sound data based policies, and is also extremely optically bad on a wedge issue that conservatives are using to justify all sorts of heinous poo poo like banning children from sports. quote:nobody watches women's sports anyway it is shocking and suspicious to me that all of a sudden people care about this Sure I mean I'll admit readily enough that I don't spend a ton of time watching women's sports unless it's an important event related to me personally in some way, but then again I'm that way with male sports too. But I have an issue with people that say just because they don't care about it means it isn't important. Women's sports are very important to a whole lot of people and I think damaging the competitive integrity of it would have a whole bunch of negative consequences to people that don't deserve to get hurt by it.
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Apr 17, 2022 15:55
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Colonel Cool posted:I'm all for waiting and seeing because we absolutely don't have enough data to make strong statements one way or another yet. If you think that trans women belong in women's sports until there is some actual argument otherwise, then you are in agreement with everyone in this thread and have wasted your time on a bunch of "What if" nonsense. If you don't, then you are making a strong statement of exclusion. Colonel Cool posted:Sure I mean I'll admit readily enough that I don't spend a ton of time watching women's sports unless it's an important event related to me personally in some way fuckin lmao
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Apr 17, 2022 16:00
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Cease to Hope posted:You keep pointing to the unsubstantiated possibility that there might, somewhere, someday, be a trans woman who has a physical advantage. You should have to name a single trans woman who has had an advantage before you continue. And after that, to explain why such a physical advantage is not tolerable in competition while essentially all other physical advantages are. As someone who was born with a disability, let me disabuse everyone of the notion that sports ever is, was, or will be a level playing field. It's not, and the idea that it is or should be is based around a very specific idea of what a "normal" person is.
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Apr 17, 2022 16:00
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Cease to Hope posted:You keep pointing to the unsubstantiated possibility that there might, somewhere, someday, be a trans woman who has a physical advantage. You should have to name a single trans woman who has had an advantage before you continue. We don't have measurements for that. We can't point to winning athletes and measure specifically if the reason they won is definitely because of a physical advantage from having gone through a male puberty or not. What we do have is some evidence pointing to some potential for physical advantage. We're just going to have to wait and see how big that potential actually is and how it ends up playing out.
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Apr 17, 2022 16:01
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PT6A posted:And after that, to explain why such a physical advantage is not tolerable in competition while essentially all other physical advantages are. Oh yeah, there's a whole bunch to unpack about what "fairness" means in the context of elite sports and the historical and contemporary reasons that women's sports exist. But if CC can't even name one person who's getting an unfair advantage, then they're wasting everyone's time. Colonel Cool posted:We don't have measurements for that. If you can't even measure it, you're just taking it as assumed that it exists at all. Faith-based exclusion of trans women.
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Apr 17, 2022 16:02
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Cease to Hope posted:If you think that trans women belong in women's sports until there is some actual argument otherwise, then you are in agreement with everyone in this thread and have wasted your time on a bunch of "What if" nonsense It's almost like I haven't been saying anything particularly controversial and a bunch of people got really mad without reading my posts very well.
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Apr 17, 2022 16:03
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It's almost like you keep repeating bigoted talking points over and over and making the thread about you and your cis feelings. You have been very clear what you think. Others are clear that they do not find you credible or persuasive. Saying it again isn't helping you make your point. Those bigoted talking points are selected by bigots specifically because they'll seem completely reasonable to you. Colonel Cool posted:It's almost like I haven't been saying anything particularly controversial and a bunch of people got really mad without reading my posts very well. This is exactly how bad faith posters argue every single time. "I'm just taking the thinnest wedge of attack against you and pounding away at it for hours. Harold Fjord fucked around with this message at 16:29 on Apr 17, 2022 |
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Apr 17, 2022 16:04
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Colonel Cool posted:It's almost like I haven't been saying anything particularly controversial and a bunch of people got really mad without reading my posts very well. I read your posts fine. You're the one saying that "the left isn't credible" because they don't buy into a bunch of literally-century-old heteronormative bullshit enforced by conservative, racist, and hilariously corrupt national and international regulatory bodies.
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Apr 17, 2022 16:04
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Colonel Cool posted:I'm all for waiting and seeing because we absolutely don't have enough data to make strong statements one way or another yet. What I object to is when people get incredibly ideologically dug in to the position that there absolutely definitely for sure is no problem whatsoever and even suggesting the possibility is transphobic. Because that's not a way to make sound data based policies, and is also extremely optically bad on a wedge issue that conservatives are using to justify all sorts of heinous poo poo like banning children from sports. The way to stop bigots from banning trans children from sports isn't to ban trans adults from sports.
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Apr 17, 2022 16:14
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Who What Now posted:The way to stop bigots from banning trans children from sports isn't to ban trans adults from sports. What would you suggest the way is?
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Apr 17, 2022 16:16
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Colonel Cool posted:What would you suggest the way is? Enforcing anti-discrimination laws instead of letting pearl clutching cis people lie about caring about fairness in sports when all you really care about is making sure trans women can't participate in society as women.
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Apr 17, 2022 16:18
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Colonel Cool posted:So it's saying that trans women definitely for sure have no level of competitive advantage in any physical area whatsoever and the subject doesn't need to be studied any further? Why should we allow anyone over 6'6" to play basketball?
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Apr 17, 2022 16:18
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Koos Group posted:If you're referring to BIG-DICK-BUTT-gently caress, they were just probated for bad faith. Very dense response and missing the entire point of their complaint and also incredibly tone deaf to....Basically everything said in this thread. I don't think someone speaking of CCs consistent return to a hand wringing hypothetical about trans women dominating sports, something already proven to not be happening for the decades trans women have been playing in these sports and something adequately responded to the first 5 times he brought it back up really cares that you dinged another person making similarly lovely arguments not for bigotry but for decorum. It makes it seem like you don't care about the bigotry at all. Which were the complaints posted throughout the thread. ZenMasterBullshit fucked around with this message at 16:27 on Apr 17, 2022 |
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Apr 17, 2022 16:21
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Sorry to step on toes here. While I don't think you are arguing out of bad faith, I do think you are a bigot. You gave the game away when you said sports were divided by sex. Anyone approaching this subject from a non bigot rear end in a top hat perspective knows that sex and gender are not the same. Sports are divided by gender at this point. Your hypotheticals are horse poo poo and you continue to ignore points that go against your hypotheticals. I don't want to see your face in this thread anymore. Edit: I'm talking about the colonel.
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Apr 17, 2022 16:22
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Colonel Cool posted:What would you suggest the way is? First, by rejecting the useful idiots who accept the bigots' framing wholesale. If you start from the premise that some people should be excluded until proven otherwise, you're doing the bigots' work for them.
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Apr 17, 2022 16:23
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PT6A posted:And after that, to explain why such a physical advantage is not tolerable in competition while essentially all other physical advantages are. The weirdest thing about this thread is the yo-yo'ing between "there is no performance advantage" and "it doesn't even matter if there's a performance advantage." If your position is the latter then why on earth are you spending 10 pages arguing with someone about the former, when the answer is irrelevant? My brain is bleeding.
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Apr 17, 2022 16:35
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I was more wondering if there'd be any response to my questions about how drawing conclusions from a thing that is incomplete may be bad.
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Apr 17, 2022 16:38
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Fluffdaddy posted:Sorry to step on toes here. While I don't think you are arguing out of bad faith, I do think you are a bigot. You gave the game away when you said sports were divided by sex. Anyone approaching this subject from a non bigot rear end in a top hat perspective knows that sex and gender are not the same. Sports are divided by gender at this point. Your hypotheticals are horse poo poo and you continue to ignore points that go against your hypotheticals. I don't want to see your face in this thread anymore. Yeah I think he probably does genuinely believe and worry about what he says but the issue is what he is stating and worrying about had no basis in any evidence we have from formal data or the history of sports over the last few decades as I said in response to him last night. Instead it is based entirely off of a general unease and worry about trans women wrapped up in the guise of defending cis women when it's just an emotional gut response hes trying to justify with hypotheticals. That drive to justify that in the face of any sound logic and debate is just bigotry. And the fact that you didn't hit him for it after someone brought up this up and responded to his hypothetical as the flimsy attempt to reshape history and data the second time he tried to run out that argument is kind of pathetic. His claims were baseless, and the kind of bigotry that it is attempting to cloak does not have a place in any debate or discussion. ZenMasterBullshit fucked around with this message at 16:44 on Apr 17, 2022 |
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Apr 17, 2022 16:38
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BRAKE FOR MOOSE posted:The weirdest thing about this thread is the yo-yo'ing between "there is no performance advantage" and "it doesn't even matter if there's a performance advantage." If your position is the latter then why on earth are you spending 10 pages arguing with someone about the former, when the answer is irrelevant? My brain is bleeding. elite athletes are the sum total of the circumstances of their birth, structural advantages they enjoyed as children, access to competetive teams/facilities/etc, support networks encouraging their participation, and then a lot of hard work and talent. the american societal notion that sports are or should be fair is a cultural framework that is similar to the one used to justify the wealth inequality under capitalism. both steroids and trans athletes threaten to expose the contradictions in an explicit way so that's why there's all the hand wringing about it
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Apr 17, 2022 16:45
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BRAKE FOR MOOSE posted:The weirdest thing about this thread is the yo-yo'ing between "there is no performance advantage" and "it doesn't even matter if there's a performance advantage." If your position is the latter then why on earth are you spending 10 pages arguing with someone about the former, when the answer is irrelevant? My brain is bleeding. There's an unresolved, underlying discussion about what it even means to be fair in elite sports. I think a lot of people have essentially dissonant ideas about it, rather than a coherent worldview based on careful consideration, largely because most people do not actually give a poo poo about non-team sports, but do assume that the long-standing authorities must have some sort of reason for their rules, and that reason must be connected to their rhetoric. In practice, it turns out that "fairness" in high-level sports is bullshit and largely written on the fly to exclude the minorities that IOC or NCAA or whatever authorities want to exclude. So women are too infirm to participate in the sports that they are being harassed out of until womens-only leagues are created. (And if a sport is dominated by women, it's illegitimate for high-level competition, of course.) Black people are excluded because of some hateful poo poo about them being "bred" to have natural advantages that turn out to not exist. This trans argument rests on appealing to the assumed sensibility of notoriously conservative, bigoted authorities, even as they ban cis women from competing in women's sports on specious grounds. But lots of people still retain those ideas rather than creating a whole new worldview from scratch. How would you get women more involved in powerlifting or contact team sports or endurance sports when there's obviously a sex hormone advantage but you don't want to encourage PEDs? Is segregation the best way to do that still? Does your utopian ideal even treat "sport" as a measurement of those physical characteristics so heavily linked to sex hormones? What about the history of sports as ways to propagate and enforce gender ideas? There's a lot you could discuss! But not having a fully-formed perfect consistent utopian idea that you're shooting for does not mean you're too inconsistent to argue against obvious efforts to exclude trans women from all areas of society, sports included, in the here and now. It just means that you're not ideologically perfectly consistent, because nobody is and nobody can be. jarofpiss posted:elite athletes are the sum total of the circumstances of their birth, structural advantages they enjoyed as children, access to competetive teams/facilities/etc, support networks encouraging their participation, and then a lot of hard work and talent. well gently caress me i typed all those words and JOP just fuckin blows me away with a better post lol
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Apr 17, 2022 16:49
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It's shameful that multiple people get probated for "insult towards fellow D&Der" but the bigot who keeps repeating bigotry to fellow D&Ders gets literally nothing. Continued hostility towards fellow D&Ders you're supposed to be moderating, instead of doing your job.
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Apr 17, 2022 17:05
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Calmly disagreeing with me is bigotry. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 17, 2022 17:10
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Average Bear posted:Calmly disagreeing with me is bigotry. Apparent calmness, especially in type, is not dispositive of anything at all. Bigot. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 17, 2022 17:16
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Harold Fjord posted:Apparent calmness, especially in type, is not dispositive of anything at all. Bigot. There it is.
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Apr 17, 2022 17:23
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Average Bear posted:There it is. To hurt by being called a bigot to present any counter argument to the point that you have made no argument and are just an obvious and lovely troll?
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Apr 17, 2022 17:27
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Harold Fjord posted:To hurt by being called a bigot to present any counter argument to the point that you have made no argument and are just an obvious and lovely troll? Trust me, "bigot" does not have the sting you wish it did.
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Apr 17, 2022 17:28
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Still no actual argument. But yeah I imagine you get called it a lot.
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Apr 17, 2022 17:29
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Harold Fjord posted:Still no actual argument. But yeah I imagine you get called it a lot. Not by anyone I have any reason to respect. I know this thread is mostly made up by goopy goonflesh, but have any of you played sports in high school? Or have sisters? Show of hands?
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Apr 17, 2022 17:32
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Harold Fjord posted:Still no actual argument. But yeah I imagine you get called it a lot. https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?noseen=1&threadid=3906091&pagenumber=12&perpage=40#post500659334 yeah lol (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 17, 2022 17:33
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Average Bear posted:Trust me, "bigot" does not have the sting you wish it did. It should though. Being called a bigot should still make you consider why and how that comes about. Even if you decide that the other person is, ultimately, wrong that doesn't diminish the insult/accusation.
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Apr 17, 2022 17:44
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Average Bear posted:Calmly disagreeing with me is bigotry. sometimes i think the basic reality of this is that yes being mtf probably confers some advantages in the same way that once you run a cycle of sterioids, some of the gains are permanent. this has not been shown to be such an outsized advantage to significantly make women's sports less competetive at any level, and with a couple elite outliers who cares. there's always some genetic freak to come along and blow everyone out of the water, and being trans is likely not the ~huge advantage~ the haters seem to think it is. and it's certainly not enough of an advantage to outweigh all of the other "unfair"advantages elite athletes have to accumulate to perform at their level. if it were, all the trans posters in this thread would be winning scholarships and medals instead of posting in d&d culture war bigots aside, well-intentioned people hyperfocusing on trans advantages in women's sport seems derivative of culture in general believing steroids are magic and isn't based in reality. sport as a human activity across the entire spectrum is self-selects to provide arenas of competition for people that excel in different fields due to whatever innate foundation they have. different body types excel at different sports. it's ridiculous to claim that the key to performing well in sport in general is solely exposure to androgenic hormones. Average Bear posted:Not by anyone I have any reason to respect.
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Apr 17, 2022 17:45
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Average Bear posted:Calmly disagreeing with me is bigotry. You can calmly move along too.
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Apr 17, 2022 17:50
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This entire thread has become a test case where we watch as the absolute practical limits of "we will not moderate positions" creak and shudder and build up pressure and want to utilize the defacto release valves very clearly being used to keep the idea functional
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Apr 17, 2022 18:35
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Kavros posted:This entire thread has become a test case where we watch as the absolute practical limits of "we will not moderate positions" creak and shudder and build up pressure and want to utilize the defacto release valves very clearly being used to keep the idea functional nobody has really taken the opposing position in anything other t han really nebulous "nobody knows there's no data" terms, and the only people itt that seem to know anything about sports all appear to be taking the position "who cares let them compete". like if anyone can show me actual evidence of a formerly competetive sport being completely dominated by trans women im all ears, but ultimately this all just sounds like culture war poo poo trying to pique sympathy for the middle of the road cis athlete that didn't qualify because of a single trans competitor? like if you think there's compelling evidence that shows trans women shouldn't compete in combat sports or something like that go hog wild. i'd be interested to hear about it because my gut reaction is that it's a bad idea too, but as far as i know alana mclaughlin hasn't murdered anyone in the ring yet so
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Apr 17, 2022 18:56
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Kavros posted:This entire thread has become a test case where we watch as the absolute practical limits of "we will not moderate positions" creak and shudder and build up pressure and want to utilize the defacto release valves very clearly being used to keep the idea functional As I told Koos privately, there are limits to what is a position that can be tolerated. If one side is questioning someone else's humanity or their right to exist, it is not a debate or a discussion, it's pure bigotry and will not be tolerated. This isn't arguing single payer vs us Healthcare, or the congressional budget. This is saying hey, you don't belong here because you don't fit my idea of what is manhood/womanhood. There is nuance and respectful conversation that can be had about trans athletes and competitive advantage. But if someone is approaching it based on anecdote and trying to imply some moral panic, they are probably a bigot and cannot participate.
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Apr 17, 2022 19:04
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