|
Borscht posted:Or just 1? Title IX exists for a reason, maybe you disagree with it but it's there. It seems like everything else can be solved with reasonable testosterone level guidelines mastershakeman fucked around with this message at 02:26 on Apr 7, 2022 |
#
?
Apr 7, 2022 02:23
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 1, 2024 17:07 |
|
|
mastershakeman posted:Title IX exists for a reason, maybe you disagree with it but it's there. some women have higher than normal testosterone
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2022 02:44
|
|
|
Cranappleberry posted:some women have higher than normal testosterone The obvious example being Caster Semenya, yeah? Who won a shitload of competitions then got banned from competition because of her uncertain status?
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2022 02:54
|
|
|
mastershakeman posted:Title IX exists for a reason, maybe you disagree with it but it's there. Title IX isn't about sex segregation? At least I'm assuming Borscht was talking about 1 category that included everyone and not only males.
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2022 02:55
|
|
|
This thread reads like a bunch of 19th century european academics going "Hm well according to their craniometric volume, Australoids are fit to participate in some areas of society. But if they become too num'rous I shall have great concerns!" Not real good and cool to see people measuring body traits to determine exactly what rights you should have and exactly where you're fit to participate in human society with everyone else! In fact it's loving shameful that it's even been allowed to proceed like this! How are u posted:Heck, if 10 years from now we actually *did* see all the womens teams and leagues full of majority trans-women to the exclusion of cis-women then I'd honestly be sympathetic to some sort of regulation. If you believe that women who are trans, are women, then why?
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2022 03:56
|
|
|
Yeah. If they're combined, why would title IX matter?
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2022 03:56
|
|
|
Squinty posted:Personally, I'd lean towards allowing transwomen to compete, and then in 20 years if every center in the WNBA and every middle blocker at the Olympics is transgender, maybe then you reevaluate. What would this "reevaluation" look like to you?
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2022 04:42
|
|
|
some plague rats posted:What would this "reevaluation" look like to you? It'll look like nothing because the conditions he'd laid out won't ever happen. In twenty years no matter how many trans athletes there are in professional/amateur sports their individual performance will be indistinguishable from cis athletes. Even if any of them have some abstruse theoretical advantage over their cis counterparts it won't be detectable against all the various background factors that influence athletic development. Vincent Van Goatse fucked around with this message at 05:25 on Apr 7, 2022 |
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2022 05:22
|
|
|
Vincent Van Goatse posted:It'll look like nothing because the conditions he'd laid out won't ever happen. In twenty years no matter how many trans athletes there are in professional/amateur sports their individual performance will be indistinguishable from cis athletes. Even if any of them have some abstruse theoretical advantage over their cis counterparts it won't be detectable against all the various background factors that influence athletic development. I mean, yeah. Obviously. But if we're taking up residence in the realm of the hypothetical I'm curious what kind of scheme he was imagining- what metrics do we use, what new divisions, etc. It can be instructive, even if only in the sense that it's a fun glimpse into what kind of poo poo society is going to try on us next 
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2022 06:00
|
|
|
some plague rats posted:What would this "reevaluation" look like to you? Would it look like anything to you? If, some period of time down the line, assuming we continue with our static Men's and Women's sports, the vasty majority of athletes in women's sports were trans, would that be something worth taking a look at in your opinion?
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2022 06:12
|
|
|
How are u posted:Would it look like anything to you? If, some period of time down the line, assuming we continue with our static Men's and Women's sports, the vasty majority of athletes in women's sports were trans, would that be something worth taking a look at in your opinion? Only if trans athletes demonstrate statistically-consistent superior performance compared to their cisgender peers. This will almost certainly not happen for reasons I already laid out.
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2022 06:15
|
|
|
Vincent Van Goatse posted:It'll look like nothing because the conditions he'd laid out won't ever happen. In twenty years no matter how many trans athletes there are in professional/amateur sports their individual performance will be indistinguishable from cis athletes. Even if any of them have some abstruse theoretical advantage over their cis counterparts it won't be detectable against all the various background factors that influence athletic development. I was specifically thinking of a stat I remembered that said something like 17% of 7-foot American men end up playing in the NBA (from here, but the article is old and the sources are gone so I can't verify its accuracy). I think there's a chance that raw height alone, even ignoring all other background factors, might be enough for transwomen to have a significant advantage in sports like basketball and volleyball. For most other sports I think you're correct.
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2022 06:20
|
|
|
imo if you statistically outperform your peers in sports you should get medals and contracts to promote shoes and a sandwich named after you at your local sandwich shop outperforming your peers is literally the whole point of sports
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2022 06:22
|
|
|
Squinty posted:I was specifically thinking of a stat I remembered that said something like 17% of 7-foot American men end up playing in the NBA (from here, but the article is old and the sources are gone so I can't verify its accuracy). I think there's a chance that raw height alone, even ignoring all other background factors, might be enough for transwomen to have a significant advantage in sports like basketball and volleyball. For most other sports I think you're correct. How many 7-foot+ transgender athletes do you think there are in America? Personally I doubt there are enough to fill out one basketball team. The very very Republican governor of Utah vetoed a bill about this issue because IIRC the total number of transgender high school athletes in Utah that the law would effect was four. 4. One less than half of ten. some plague rats posted:I mean, yeah. Obviously. But if we're taking up residence in the realm of the hypothetical I'm curious what kind of scheme he was imagining- what metrics do we use, what new divisions, etc. It can be instructive, even if only in the sense that it's a fun glimpse into what kind of poo poo society is going to try on us next If they're actually concerned about this issue on the grounds they claim they're concerned about, then they might be persuaded by statistics. If they're just transphobic bigots it's good to have proof so they can be ignored in future. Vincent Van Goatse fucked around with this message at 06:31 on Apr 7, 2022 |
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2022 06:22
|
|
|
Vincent Van Goatse posted:How many 7-foot+ transmen do you think there are in America? Personally I doubt there are enough to fill out one basketball team. The average WNBA player is 7 inches shorter than the average NBA player, so I guess the equivalent of a 7 footer in the WNBA would be somewhere around 6'5"?
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2022 06:31
|
|
|
Squinty posted:The average WNBA player is 7 inches shorter than the average NBA player, so I guess the equivalent of a 7 footer in the WNBA would be somewhere around 6'5"? OK then, how many 6'5"ish transgender athletes do you think exist? And how many of them want to play basketball? How many of the basketball players are good enough to make it into college sports, let alone a WNBA team? Assuming there are any left at this point, how many got there because of supposed natural advantage? You see the point here, right? We're talking about a vanishingly small number of hypothetical athletes. To be blunt and possibly offesnive, unless a LeBron James-level player suddenly announced they were transgender and wished to play in the WBNA from now on and before beginning the appropriate hormone treatments it would be impossible to tell if a specific person had gained any advantage from growing up as the gender they didn't truly identify as. Vincent Van Goatse fucked around with this message at 06:39 on Apr 7, 2022 |
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2022 06:32
|
|
|
Squinty posted:I was specifically thinking of a stat I remembered that said something like 17% of 7-foot American men end up playing in the NBA (from here, but the article is old and the sources are gone so I can't verify its accuracy). I think there's a chance that raw height alone, even ignoring all other background factors, might be enough for transwomen to have a significant advantage in sports like basketball and volleyball. For most other sports I think you're correct. They would still need to be over 6 feet to be above average in the WNBA. Women volleyball players are also generally above average height for women. While height is an advantage it's also one shared by your average high level athlete in those sports and it's not the only thing that goes into your level of ability. What is different from being transgendered to all the other variations you can have to your body that can give you an advantage in a certain sport? Why does that one alone need to be watched so heavily? Even on the idea that lower level sports will suffer I don't think I understand the differences here. What would be the difference between a 6' 2'' trans woman who has a natural height advantage over a 5' 5'' woman that makes that unfair but being a 6' 2'' cis woman isn't?
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2022 06:40
|
|
|
Vincent Van Goatse posted:How many 7-foot+ transgender athletes do you think there are in America? Personally I doubt there are enough to fill out one basketball team. Even worse: of those 4, three are trans boys. Only 1 athlete would be effected by that law at all as it only covers girls' teams. https://twitter.com/SpencerJCox/status/1506377724314611712
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2022 07:52
|
|
|
Kalit posted:The answer to the topic question: obviously yes i think the general response is to group intersex athletes with transgender ones – caster semenya has been treated pretty disgustingly
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2022 09:17
|
|
|
Jaxyon posted:Also a lot of women's divisions exist because women were beating men when it was combined. which other sports were dominated by women before gender divisions?
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2022 13:50
|
|
|
Are sports divided by Sex or Gender?
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2022 13:58
|
|
|
I've been thinking about how to phrase this for a while, so I'll just give it a shot: fairness in sport is arbitrary. We make rules to create a competition that we feel is valid and interesting, and we change those rules if we feel like doing so. As others have pointed out, there are many forms of competitive advantage in sport that we ignore or encourage, so it's not about making sure everyone is on a perfectly level playing field and equal in every way and it never has been. Given that sport is a human-created thing, and we can change the rules arbitrarily if we like (and governing bodies do this all the time), we have to balance our notions of fairness against what should be a distaste for discriminating against a group of people. I think to justify banning trans women from women's sport, you would have to demonstrate an overwhelming competitive advantage that, in practice, makes a given competition meaningless, not simply theoretical advantages that are similar in magnitude to natural variations that we already allow or even encourage; anything less cannot possibly justify discriminating against a marginalized group in such a heavy-handed way. No one has ever demonstrated that overwhelming advantage, and I highly, highly doubt anyone ever will.
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2022 14:22
|
|
|
Tbh this thread really could serve for a general thread on the attacks on trans people right now, Otherwise appreciate the thread, and instead of the title maybe trans athletes and the bigot hypocrisy might be a better title. At first it sounds like a debate when instead there really isn't one, trans people should not be barred and attacked like they have been and anyone saying otherwise is an rear end in a top hat that doesn't belong here.
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2022 14:32
|
|
|
Herstory Begins Now posted:imo if you statistically outperform your peers in sports you should get medals and contracts to promote shoes and a sandwich named after you at your local sandwich shop This is why I have found the entire argument about fairness invalid. The point is to use every advantage granted to you in life to defeat your peers. No one ever gets up in arms about rich folks or those with a genetic quirk getting ahead. Why should transgender athletes be any different even if there were advantages? It’s silly on its face. Then again I also don’t find any issues with folks juicing or augmenting their bodies if the person is a 100% willing participant so I may be an edge case. However I have found this argument works on gym rats so lol. Edit: just in case I wasn’t clear, I am not saying transgender athletes are equivalent to juicing. I am not. What I’m saying is sports competition by their very nature aren’t even fair and so any argument about “fairness” is bullshit. Everyone should be able to compete. gently caress arbitrary rules. virtualboyCOLOR fucked around with this message at 15:20 on Apr 7, 2022 |
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2022 14:39
|
|
|
Vincent Van Goatse posted:From what I've read there's no competitive advantage for a transwoman who began HRT before hitting puberty, so I don't see any reason why they should be barred from competition. But testosterone has a huge influence on skeletal growth throughout puberty, which certainly gives an advantage in some sports - things like height in basketball and volleyball, arm length/reach in combat sports, hand/foot size in swimming, etc. Don't forget muscle mass to go along with that huge skeleton. After all the only reason anyone's even talking about MTF trans women playing women's sports is that we're seeing over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again how absolutely middling male athletes transition as fully grown adults, and then utterly dominate women's sport. If being born male made so little difference, as is being so passionately argued by some ITT, if you're ranked 5,000 in the world as a man playing a men's sport (e.g. men's weightlifting, men's soccer, men's biathlon or whatever) and you transition to a woman, you should end up roughly ranked 5,000 in the world as a woman. That is FAR from what's happening.
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2022 15:29
|
|
|
virtualboyCOLOR posted:This is why I have found the entire argument about fairness invalid. The point is to use every advantage granted to you in life to defeat your peers. No one ever gets up in arms about rich folks or those with a genetic quirk getting ahead. Why should transgender athletes be any different even if there were advantages? I'm curious, if you think the fairness argument is invalid/silly because sports aren't fair, would you be okay with trans women who haven't undergone HRT competing in women's sports, since they are women? Sure, the fairness argument doesn't seem to be sound, but it is valid; if there WAS a reason to think that 98-99% of women would never be able to compete at the top level of their sport purely because of easily identifiable circumstances of their birth, then that might not be a good thing for women as a whole. That's some gattaca poo poo. Gentleman Baller fucked around with this message at 15:46 on Apr 7, 2022 |
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2022 15:43
|
|
|
Gentleman Baller posted:I'm curious, if you think the fairness argument is invalid/silly because sports aren't fair, would you be okay with trans women who haven't undergone HRT competing in women's sports, since they are women? It is already the case that over 99% of women will never be able to compete at the top level of a sport. It's also the case that over 99% of men will never be able to compete at the top level of a sport.
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2022 15:55
|
|
|
Internaut! posted:Don't forget muscle mass to go along with that huge skeleton. Shouldn't this have played out in combat sports somewhere then? Boxing and MMA have had transgender fighters and none of them have dominated in a sport where the "common sense" says they will. Where are the examples of utter domination? And where does all this leave FTM fighters? Patricio Manuel has wins before and after transitioning and can't get a fight because no one wants to lose to him because they don't want to be seen losing to him. Gumball Gumption fucked around with this message at 16:01 on Apr 7, 2022 |
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2022 15:58
|
|
|
Internaut! posted:Don't forget muscle mass to go along with that huge skeleton. Can you show us some of these examples? You have 9 'overs' in your post. So you should be able to show us, at minimum, 10 examples of this, right?
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2022 16:00
|
|
|
Gentleman Baller posted:I'm curious, if you think the fairness argument is invalid/silly because sports aren't fair, would you be okay with trans women who haven't undergone HRT competing in women's sports, since they are women? Arguing for fairness is sports is like arguing if there is fairness under capitalism. It can’t be fair by the very definition of the subject. There will always be those with advantages (real or perceived by bigots) others could never obtain. It’s 100% an invalid argument used to define arbitrary rules that are defined by the elite. Transgender athletes are the gender they identify with. I don’t think anyone needs to go under go any treatment unless they want.
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2022 16:01
|
|
|
Internaut! posted:Don't forget muscle mass to go along with that huge skeleton. No, that is exactly what's happening. You were probably fed some line about how Lia Thomas went from a a 400th place male swimmer to a top 10 female swimmer right? This is incredibly deceptive. She went from a top 10 male swimmer to a top 10 female swimmer. There was a year in between there where she was on HRT and had lost a ton of muscle mass but was still competing in the men's division.
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2022 16:25
|
|
|
Bel Shazar posted:It is already the case that over 99% of women will never be able to compete at the top level of a sport. It's also the case that over 99% of men will never be able to compete at the top level of a sport. Yes, but not due to easily identifiable circumstances of their birth. Generally, if a woman is passionate and talented about athleticism from their childhood, and they receive the support they need, there's every chance they can compete at a national or international level. Their goal might be ambitious, but it's possible. If it were the case that cis girls would know that no matter how hard they worked, they wouldn't be able to compete at the top levels just because they were born cis, that's a completely different thing to what you're describing. virtualboyCOLOR posted:Arguing for fairness is sports is like arguing if there is fairness under capitalism. It can’t be fair by the very definition of the subject. There will always be those with advantages (real or perceived by bigots) others could never obtain. It’s 100% an invalid argument used to define arbitrary rules that are defined by the elite. Of course but there's levels to this. Capitalism is definitionally unfair, sure, but when peoples bosses commit wage theft, and someone says that's unfair I wouldn't exactly call that an 'invalid argument.' I'd probably agree with them, personally. Just because there is genetic and social variations that convey advantages to one person that another person could never hope to get, doesn't mean that it's absurd to call out other, possibly controllable types of unfairness.
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2022 16:51
|
|
|
Gentleman Baller posted:Of course but there's levels to this. Capitalism is definitionally unfair, sure, but when peoples bosses commit wage theft, and someone says that's unfair I wouldn't exactly call that an 'invalid argument.' I'd probably agree with them, personally. I strongly disagree. Wage theft is a feature of capitalism, not a bug. You have to dismantle the system to remove it. Calling it out is good but adding rules to capitalism doesn’t actually resolve the root cause. For sports: they’re fun. Let people have fun. Those that want to be the “best” should be able to use every advantage. It’s a competition. Hell, the Olympics were excluding CIS women for having too much testosterone. It’s stupid, arbitrary, and only exists based on the whims of the elite. Those that care about “fairness” here are either bigots, fooling themselves, or have other ulterior motives.
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2022 17:08
|
|
|
Gentleman Baller posted:Yes, but not due to easily identifiable circumstances of their birth. Generally, if a woman is passionate and talented about athleticism from their childhood, and they receive the support they need, there's every chance they can compete at a national or international level. Their goal might be ambitious, but it's possible. Like Bel Shazar was implying, it is the case that many people know they'll never be able to compete at the top levels of certain sports because of how they were born. Like if you're not tall enough, or not coordinated enough, or have some kind of actual disability. The inevitable question in this discussion is, what makes being biologically female a special category that we need to accommodate? As opposed to other disadvantages like having a gene that prevents you from developing muscle mass, being short, etc? And the question is still there no matter whether trans female athletes have advantages over cis female athletes or not. That issue just brings it to the fore. Like if we have a women's basketball association, why not one for people under six feet tall? Why not horse races for jockeys that are OVER six feet tall?
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2022 17:28
|
|
|
virtualboyCOLOR posted:I strongly disagree. Wage theft is a feature of capitalism, not a bug. You have to dismantle the system to remove it. Calling it out is good but adding rules to capitalism doesn’t actually resolve the root cause. It seems I mainly agree with you in practice, but not in the theory. If some time down the line in the future we end up in a situation where, say, the entire USWNT is trans or every single woman we send to the Olympics is trans, you would say "that's fine, there's absolutely nothing worth looking at here" ? And, to be clear, this is not something I think is likely to happen at all, it's not something I'm worried about in the slightest, it's not a problem that exists to be solved. Its theorizing.
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2022 17:34
|
|
|
How are u posted:It seems I mainly agree with you in practice, but not in the theory. If some time down the line in the future we end up in a situation where, say, the entire USWNT is trans or every single woman we send to the Olympics is trans, you would say "that's fine, there's absolutely nothing worth looking at here" ? If it's not something you expect to happen and not a problem that needs to be solved then what is the point of theorizing about it, other than attacking trans people?
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2022 17:41
|
|
|
Internaut! posted:Don't forget muscle mass to go along with that huge skeleton. As Mischievous Mink said to you, muscle mass decreases when you lower testosterone, which is a requirement for trans athletes in women's sports. Do you dispute that assertion? Internaut! posted:After all the only reason anyone's even talking about MTF trans women playing women's sports is that we're seeing over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again how absolutely middling male athletes transition as fully grown adults, and then utterly dominate women's sport. It sounds like you have many examples. Could you provide at least nine, since that was how many times you said "over"?
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2022 17:42
|
|
|
Internaut! posted:Don't forget muscle mass to go along with that huge skeleton. are we? my understanding is that there's maybe one case of that anyone can point to, and even in that case someone went from a top-ten finisher as a man pre-transition to a top-ten finisher as a woman post-transition. it's just that republicans seized on the fact that mid-transition her performance understandably declined to say "hey look at this awful men's swimmer suddenly becoming a great women's swimmer." i wouldn't be shocked to hear one existed, you gotta imagine there's some athlete somewhere whose performance has been held back more by the lack of gender affirming care than by spending several years transitioning, but as yet nobody's been able to show me one that wasn't transparent horseshit
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2022 17:50
|
|
|
virtualboyCOLOR posted:I strongly disagree. Wage theft is a feature of capitalism, not a bug. You have to dismantle the system to remove it. Calling it out is good but adding rules to capitalism doesn’t actually resolve the root cause. Sure, I grant you all this but just to fully clarify, if someone says, "wage theft is unfair." that is invalid to you? Or would you agree that, despite capitalism being definitionally unfair, and how many of the rules are arbitrary, things can still be particularly unfair under capitalism? virtualboyCOLOR posted:For sports: they’re fun. Let people have fun. Those that want to be the “best” should be able to use every advantage. It’s a competition. Hell, the Olympics were excluding CIS women for having too much testosterone. It’s stupid, arbitrary, and only exists based on the whims of the elite. Those that care about “fairness” here are either bigots, fooling themselves, or have other ulterior motives. Does that extend to people who think trans women who haven't undergone HRT shouldn't be competing against cis women? Or are there other reasons someone might care about fairness in that case? Edit: Dog King posted:Like Bel Shazar was implying, it is the case that many people know they'll never be able to compete at the top levels of certain sports because of how they were born. Like if you're not tall enough, or not coordinated enough, or have some kind of actual disability. Oh I wasn't trying to suggest it was universally true, I said generally because I think it's generally true, that's all. And thankfully, we've been able to fix that issue for many people with disabilities with the Paralympics, and we have several sports that actually give you an advantage if you are short. Those are both really good things imo! The amount of women athletes who know they'll never be able to compete at the highest level no matter how hard they try, purely because of the circumstances of their birth is nowhere near 99%. I think if it stays nowhere near 99%, then that's good. It'd be rad if we can get whatever percent it is lower. To answer your question, the reason I think cis women's participation in high level sports is valuable, is cis women make up around 49% of the world's population, There isn't really anything deeper than that. If it's sustainable, I'm all for additional divisions in sports where it's beneficial. Gentleman Baller fucked around with this message at 18:27 on Apr 7, 2022 |
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2022 17:57
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 1, 2024 17:07 |
|
|
Internaut! posted:If being born male made so little difference, as is being so passionately argued by some ITT, if you're ranked 5,000 in the world as a man playing a men's sport (e.g. men's weightlifting, men's soccer, men's biathlon or whatever) and you transition to a woman, you should end up roughly ranked 5,000 in the world as a woman. That is FAR from what's happening. That's actually exactly what's happening
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2022 18:37
|
|