Should transgender athletes be allowed to compete? (YES)

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Should transgender athletes be allowed to compete? (YES)

Fluffdaddy: Jan 3, 2009

While I think people shouldn't be permad or even banned for having bad or even somewhat vile opinions, the threshold is when you think it's acceptable to debate about a minority groups right to exist. There is nothing to debate and there is no nuance there.

I question why this thread exist in this sub to begin with.

# ¿ Apr 10, 2022 09:02

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# ¿ May 22, 2024 11:17

Fluffdaddy: Jan 3, 2009

A big flaming stink posted:

Like I confess I'm somewhat taken aback by that statement. Do you mind elaborating why you think this sort of thread should not exist in dnd?

Because trans men are men and trans women are women. There is really no debate to be had. Sports being used as a metric of "what is fair or not fair" is a smoke screen for transphobia, even if the person is sincerely having doubts.

# ¿ Apr 10, 2022 12:38

Fluffdaddy: Jan 3, 2009

Rob Filter posted:

I have sympathy for ignorant people who accidentally get taught harmful and dangerous myths by dangerous bigots, and then propagate it. Like, they are a vector for the myth, they are doing real harm and need to stop, but fundamentally the intervention they need is a paragraph of text explaining how they got duped into doing bigotry by willful bigots.

That grace has to end when someone is engaging in bigotry AND harassing people who are pushing back against their bigotry, especially when they deploy bigotry as part of their harassment toolkit.

I'd like to requote one of the PM's Aginor's sent:

On first glance this may just look like some truly vile harassment. Out of the context of harassment targeted at trans people for speaking up against their transphobia, and without the transphobia in the message, I'd still want to permaban someone for posting this, but the reason would be "truly vile harassment". Without a pattern of harassment or the transphobia, its harassment.

With the transphobia? Accusing a trans person of been trans so they can avoid sexual assault charges? This isn't just vile harassment, its a violent physical threat. It's saying "I am going to go away from here and incite real world people to street violence, I am going to go away from here and help organize systemic violence against, because I'm an angry transphobe and how dare you talk like this to me. I know the lies to deploy to get other people to attack you on my behalf." It's a seriously scary threat, and its a seriously legitimate violent threat. You need to permaban this poster as well.

That person was permabanned yesterday? What are you talking about?

# ¿ Apr 10, 2022 12:41

Fluffdaddy: Jan 3, 2009

Rob Filter posted:

Ah, apologies, I was confused by the bug that shows their avatar as probated for 28 days instead of perma'd.

edit: https://forums.somethingawful.com/banlist.php?userid=82303 <- this is Aginor's probation sheet, it doesn't show a permaban.

Actually my apologies, the perma wasn't sent yet. I will fix that as soon as I get on my computer

# ¿ Apr 10, 2022 12:46

Fluffdaddy: Jan 3, 2009

A big flaming stink posted:

oh yeah i get that, im more refering to the fact that the response to this thread clearly shows why it is necessary for it to exist. Like I said, it would be great if everyone was of one mind on this but that is not the world we live in

I guess I come from the mindset that minorities are not here to educate their oppressors. That's a lot of unfair emotional labor.

# ¿ Apr 10, 2022 12:50

Fluffdaddy: Jan 3, 2009

Rob Filter posted:

All good.

Just in case you didn't see my final edit: You may have confused the abusive PM's Aginor sent for been something Trollologist sent. Or trollologist ALSO sent abusive PM's; might be worth talking with other mods to check what happened exactly on the backend.

They both did. It's been a Rollercoaster of horrible people sending horrible PMs these last few days.

# ¿ Apr 10, 2022 12:54

Fluffdaddy: Jan 3, 2009

CommieGIR posted:

If they want to: Let them! Are you seriously arguing that the decision should be made for them because "A man might beat up a woman"?

This reeks of "That weak woman might get beat up by a strong man" and that's straight up misogyny.

Divisions exist in combat sports mainly for weight because it is a safety issue to have 250 lb anybody fighting a 150 lb anybody.

There are probably women who can compete against men at the same weight class but I think testosterone plays a huge part in muscle development the heavier you get.

Which is why it'd put a trans athlete at a huge disadvantage if they were force to compete against their pre transistion gender.

# ¿ Apr 10, 2022 17:33

Fluffdaddy: Jan 3, 2009

CommieGIR posted:

Body weight? Sure, that makes some sense.

Gender? Bullshit. And again, I don't think highly of UFC / Combat sports anyways, but the idea that two equally bodyweighted different gendered fighters need to be protected from one another I can absolutely guarantee is founded in misogyny and optics rather than any sort of scientific method to 'protect' them.

I can assure you that it has nothing to do with misogyny, especially the higher you go in weight. The ability to build muscle density is directly tied to hormones, which is why trans athletes should compete with the correct gender in the first place. A transwoman should not be fighting CIS men in the same weight class.

# ¿ Apr 10, 2022 18:00

Fluffdaddy: Jan 3, 2009

CommieGIR posted:

Gonna disagree with both of you, that's straight up

It isn't at all. Your line of thinking is what leads to transphobia in athletics in the first place. Transitioning is a complete change in body chemistry and physiologically speaking a transwoman is a woman and has the hormone change to prove it.

# ¿ Apr 10, 2022 18:05

Fluffdaddy: Jan 3, 2009

Koos Group posted:

Punching power seems as though it would be impossible to measure, since it would be up to the athletes to demonstrate it and they would of course pull their punches to qualify for a lower class.

Weight limits divided by gender is basically the best we can do but even weight is manipulated heavily by fighters.

# ¿ Apr 10, 2022 18:19

Fluffdaddy: Jan 3, 2009

Bear Enthusiast posted:

Trans women are women even if they haven't taken hormones or had surgery or whatever else. They might not have done it yet or might not want to at all.

Same for any gender or lack thereof.

You are correct but I think the discussion around athletics is based around people who have or are in the process of transitioning. TERFs and other transphobes use trans people who have not transistioned as a strawman to argue against inclusiveness, even though as far as I know, it has never come up.

# ¿ Apr 10, 2022 18:26

Fluffdaddy: Jan 3, 2009

The only combat sport that I know of that does not have weight Divisions is sumo. Unfortunately they also do not recognize women's sumo as legit, which is its own can of sexist worms.

# ¿ Apr 10, 2022 18:28

Fluffdaddy: Jan 3, 2009

Just Chamber posted:

I suppose this it makes more sense in Sumo as you're using your body weight to push or just throwing people down so there's really not much danger there unlike other combat sports where people might be repeatedly punched or elbowed in the head, so if someone is severely outmatched/ outweighed they'll just get bodied out of the ring and embarrassed.

Closed fist and kicks above the knees are strictly forbidden.

There are a couple of "little" wrestlers under 250lbs in the upper Divisions. They usually specialize in throws and leg trips.

# ¿ Apr 10, 2022 18:41

Fluffdaddy: Jan 3, 2009

Another wild thing about the current anti trans movement in the United States is that it is not only designed to oppress Transfolks, but it is also being used as a back door to go after all LGBTQ people. It's ugly on so many levels.

# ¿ Apr 10, 2022 18:46

Fluffdaddy: Jan 3, 2009

Archonex posted:

It's not just LGBTQ people they want to go after too. I remember years ago an internal memo got leaked from one of the big groups working to push the LGBTQ bigotry that revealed that it's basically a long con by all of these "religious" (and I use that word loosely, since their beliefs have nothing to do with the bible and everything to do with their own biases) groups to go after every minority in the country. Just vaguely recalling the details of it:

The intent is that if they are successful at genociding LGBTQ people out of existence they'll eventually go back to pushing anti-miscegenation (literally the hot topic for evangelicals in the 80's/even a few groups in the 90's before they decided to pivot to abortion being the thing their leaders and donors pretended to be so angry about. Not that it seems like they've stopped believing this, but they're just less loud about it now.) laws against different ethnicities marrying. And by different ethnicities I mean white people marrying someone who isn't specifically white according to whichever in groups are accepted at any given time. Then if that's successful they want to look at removing voting rights for women after they've rolled back the civil rights movement for African Americans, etc, etc.

Given that, it shouldn't come as a surprise that the fight against abortion is just another branch of the same assault on liberty, equality, and justice for Americans these assholes have pursued for decades.

Every successful attempt at oppressing the people of America by these groups is meant to chain into the next attempt to go after a new minority and deepen the oppression and murder of those already under attack. They want to do this through using the previous act of bigotry as a springboard to demonize and then attack a new minority by rolling back their rights until white, straight, and male people are basically the only folks left that have any rights or safety from the worst parts of society or life in general.

Of course that's why groups like the FRC and other extremist christian organizations put so much effort into staying hiding in the dark. Since despite their claims about their cause being holy, just, morally upright, family oriented, etc, etc, they tend to wither under public scorn when dragged kicking and screaming out into the light where everyone can see them. Since very few politicians historically want to be seen accepting legislation that was workshopped by a literal extremist hate group that wants to kill and oppress large swathes of the population.

TL;DR: A thread on that stuff would be immensely useful, even if I don't have all the necessary research and documents on hand to do an OP.

Edit: I should also mention that this stuff isn't just limited to the US either. The UK TERF movement deliberately linked up with groups like this to help push anti-trans stuff into the UK and make it mainstream. And there's the whole thing with the old Uganda "Kill the gays" bill linked to evangelicals and groups like the FRC where people associated with evangelical hate groups were implicated in pushing a bill designed to genocide minorities after they spent so long assisting in local efforts by right wing politicians and religious leaders to demonize them overseas.

Alongside all that there's the links evangelical christianity in the US has to Russia, their genocidal treatment of LGBTQ minorities, and the orthodox church over there that someone could probably go into depth on. Which would probably go a long way to explaining why they refused to disown Trump after his many scandals and voted for him en-masse too, despite him being basically the antithesis of any decent christian ideal as well. Along with why you can still see pictures of right wingers in the US supporting the Russian state despite (or rather because) they are genocidal bastards.

So yeah, this is kind of an issue for folks even outside the US since these sorts of hate groups try to push their values on other countries as well. Ditto for some of them trying to coordinate with other bigoted monsters and authoritarian tyrants abroad to maximize the effect of their attack on minorities where ever they can find traction.

My working theory has always been that the majority of oppression in the United States comes from the institution of white supremacy. It infests every facet of our society and every year it finds new and exciting ways to bare its teeth against marginalized people.

# ¿ Apr 10, 2022 21:56

Fluffdaddy: Jan 3, 2009

VitalSigns posted:

Just divide sports into Men, Rich White Women Who Fit In (If You Know What I Mean), and Miscellaneous

Then we don't have to do a bunch of gymnastics to define what a woman is or argue about standards, the membership requirements for country clubs already exist so the RWWWFI(IYKWIM) category can just lift those

What does this add to this conversation outside of pointless hyperbole and waving your arms around like Kermit the Frog?

# ¿ Apr 11, 2022 15:17

Fluffdaddy: Jan 3, 2009

BRAKE FOR MOOSE posted:

So your contention is that if Caster Semanya was white, she would not have had to face any of this scrutiny?

Absolutely. Her medical information would have not leaked if she was a white person from a European or North American country.

# ¿ Apr 12, 2022 19:05

Fluffdaddy: Jan 3, 2009

PeterCat posted:

People had no problems calling Jarmila Kratochvilova "mannish." Or are Czechs not white in your world?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ObikI1d8xPI

Eastern Bloc countries weren't capital W white until the wall fell, so yea.

Shes also juiced out of her mind, which was also a popular Eastern Bloc pasttime.

# ¿ Apr 12, 2022 22:59

Fluffdaddy: Jan 3, 2009

Sorry to step on toes here. While I don't think you are arguing out of bad faith, I do think you are a bigot. You gave the game away when you said sports were divided by sex. Anyone approaching this subject from a non bigot rear end in a top hat perspective knows that sex and gender are not the same. Sports are divided by gender at this point. Your hypotheticals are horse poo poo and you continue to ignore points that go against your hypotheticals. I don't want to see your face in this thread anymore.

Edit: I'm talking about the colonel.

# ¿ Apr 17, 2022 16:22

Fluffdaddy: Jan 3, 2009

Average Bear posted:

Calmly disagreeing with me is bigotry.

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

You can calmly move along too.

# ¿ Apr 17, 2022 17:50

Fluffdaddy: Jan 3, 2009

Kavros posted:

This entire thread has become a test case where we watch as the absolute practical limits of "we will not moderate positions" creak and shudder and build up pressure and want to utilize the defacto release valves very clearly being used to keep the idea functional

As I told Koos privately, there are limits to what is a position that can be tolerated.

If one side is questioning someone else's humanity or their right to exist, it is not a debate or a discussion, it's pure bigotry and will not be tolerated. This isn't arguing single payer vs us Healthcare, or the congressional budget. This is saying hey, you don't belong here because you don't fit my idea of what is manhood/womanhood. There is nuance and respectful conversation that can be had about trans athletes and competitive advantage. But if someone is approaching it based on anecdote and trying to imply some moral panic, they are probably a bigot and cannot participate.

# ¿ Apr 17, 2022 19:04

Fluffdaddy: Jan 3, 2009

Hawkperson posted:

I�m curious to know if there is an elite trans athlete/competitor who has been excluded from competition. There�s no doubt it happens passively and indirectly. But it seems to me like the people who are actually being currently and directly affected by policies trying to address trans people are 1) elite cis women such as Caster Semenya and 2) non- elite trans kids who just want to play some sportsball. The only trans adult athlete I can think of in this category is the trans man who can�t get a boxing match. Is there anyone else?

Not exactly excluded, but Patricio Manuel can't get a fight because cismen are too scared to fight him because machismo sexist bullshit.

Pre transistion, he was a 5 time amateur women's champion. He won his debut fight as a pro after top surgery and transitioning.

# ¿ Apr 17, 2022 19:13

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# ¿ May 22, 2024 11:17

Fluffdaddy: Jan 3, 2009

This thread has run its course. Thanks to those who managed to have a conversation and bring up interesting points.

# ¿ Apr 18, 2022 01:42

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Should transgender athletes be allowed to compete? (YES)