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Are trans women women is a pretty easy question to answer; the answer is: Yes
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Apr 16, 2022 07:44
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woozy pawsies posted:Very important to bring postmodernism into a debate about sports inclusion and physiology. What is a chair? Does a chair have chairness? Does red have a priori redness? What is truth? do the british and Americans actually count as human beings or is this a lie we tell ourselves
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Apr 16, 2022 08:29
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I've seen anti trans individuals and organisations on social media, the tv and other platforms use the refrain "define woman/but what is a woman" as a way of stopping any greater conversation about the inclusion and acceptance of trans people I'm not saying that's whats happening here im just pointing that out
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Apr 16, 2022 08:49
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Minera posted:it's absolutely possible to overreact to innocent posts. you can see it on the last page! yeah, that's the nature and the point of dogwhistles, but at the same time, if you actually read through brake for mooses posts, or read their posts in the thread, its quite clear what the intention of what they said was. it's possible to just correct someone's terminology without automatically assuming they are a transphobe and becoming antagonistic against them for no real reason. it's incredibly tiresome to automatically assume everyone is a bigot out to get you, both for your own mental health and for the patience of online discussion groups and mods, which is part of why trans threads have been so tumultous on these forums in the past, with people willing to apply blanket statements of transphobia across entire sects of the forum over the most petty poo poo. But what is an innocent post? More importantly, what is love?
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Apr 16, 2022 08:53
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Liquid Communism posted:Especially the Mumsnet UK TERF crowd. But what is a human
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Apr 16, 2022 08:57
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Let's have a really dehumanising and abstract conversation about what being a woman or a man entails, rather than discussing the fact that we live in a climate in which trans people, and the greater lgbtq community, are being openly compared to child groomers in the Western media
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Apr 16, 2022 09:05
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The whole conversation around trans women is so hosed that we are hung up on a minority of a minority being involved in sports and whether they pose an existential threat to cis women, as if this hasn't been an issue that was brought up in the previous decades Even worse if you are a trans man and you are infantalised to the point of non existence Sports is the thin end of the anti trans wedge, next is inclusion of trans women in spaces considered to be the domain of cis women and i can guarantee you that the same arguments about trans women being an existential threat to cis women are already being levied to justify discrimination
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Apr 16, 2022 09:12
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Lmao blanchard was the same person rating trans and gender non conforming kids based upon their attractiveness or similar criteria, not sure if we want to listen to the ideas of a person directly involved in implementing anti trans conversion therapy
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Apr 16, 2022 09:41
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I can't imagine why trans women would take issue with a theory that presupposes they are inherently fetishistic beings that are intrinsically narcissistic, not least one that's directly perpetrated some of the worst stereotypes revolving around trans women Nevermind its lack of explanation for the existence of trans men and non binary people Guess they must just be cowards
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Apr 16, 2022 09:45
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Honestly who cares, anything remotely to do with the decency, equality and treatment of various groups of people who stray from the "norm" in terms of sexuality, race, ethnicity, gender, religion etc is going to be subject to this "just asking questions" game of cat and mouse navel gazing 
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Apr 16, 2022 09:53
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All you can is point out that this continuous "debate" only serves to harm the groups that are being talked about
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Apr 16, 2022 09:54
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Okay but myco hasn't proven they arent simply a brain floating in a perfectly cylindrical hermetically sealed vat filled to the brim with piss and turds so who cares
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Apr 16, 2022 10:00
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Like if you seriously believe in agp theory then go transition and let us know how that goes for you Brb gonna update my drivers license for fetish related reasons
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Apr 16, 2022 10:04
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I think trans people would have a lot more tolerance for this bullshit if it wasn't literally being used as a justification to ban or exclude us from large parts of society But it's cool because its a joke, like on top gear
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Apr 16, 2022 13:23
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woozy pawsies posted:Asking to define what a women is in a thread about sports which has “men” and “women” divisions is probably a good question to ask. It’s even talked about in the bbm article. It’s colloquial definition and classification is assumed in the studies posted. “Women are women” is a meaningless statement that doesn’t help clear anything up or add to the discussion. But go ahead and assume malice and hate for anyone that could possibly disagree with you on a topic, even if the disagreement is loving semantics. Cool so are trans women women or not? Or are you gonna tap dance and default to asking "what is a woman?"
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Apr 16, 2022 16:41
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woozy pawsies posted:Trans women are women, they should be allowed in sports, puberty blockers are fine, etc etc. When should they be allowed in sports though? As soon as they come out? Why wait until after HRT? Appreciate you answering it. The issue with basing it on hormone levels is that inevitably cis and intersex women will be caught up in the crossfire, but that seems to be the way it's going
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Apr 16, 2022 16:47
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mycophobia posted:because im an idiot who cant keep his mouth shut my positions are that trans people should be treated the same as cis people, anyone should have mostly unfettered access to transitional care regardless of their reasoning for wanting to transition (not to imply that any particular reason would be necessarily invalid) and that my instinctual answer to the thread question at hand is Yes. Fair enough Part of the reason this topic is so heated is that unfortunately it is being used as a wedge issue to harm trans people and cis people's whole reference to trans people in general is so far removed from how trans people view or talk about themselves or their experiences that you're gonna run into them being automatically defensive
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Apr 16, 2022 16:50
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woozy pawsies posted:There’s absolutely limitations to it and many misconceptions, seemingly so even within the governing bodies of the sports (and especially the general public), but right now, due to the paucity of data and research on trans athletes (because there are so few, especially at the level where it matters), it looks like no one else has come up with a better approach. I side on the side of inclusion while the science and time settle things. While I’m a bit ambivalent, part of me thinking the performance gap between the sexes stems from talent pool/socioeconomic climate, I’m still not fully convinced that on average males do not have some sort of physiological advantage regarding strength. that's fair enough, trans athletes are a minority of a minority and i also think that socioeconomic climate has a greater impact than other factors
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Apr 16, 2022 17:04
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woozy pawsies posted:I’m being serious here with this line of questioning, I know it’s thrown around by assholes with bad intentions, but I am very curious what you think. I am a man who has enjoyed all the socioeconomic benefits of being perceived as one my whole life, and I have enjoyed (if they exist) the physiological benefits of training as one in powerlifting. If there was a powerlifting competition today that had “men” and “women” divisions, and I started to consider myself a woman today, would it be fair competitors for me to compete in the “women” division? It's the "today" part that sounds like a bit of a red flag to me, realising you are trans, coming out and transitioning (if you can) is a long process, it's not done on a whim
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Apr 16, 2022 17:11
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Colonel Cool posted:Buddy if you think the argument that muscles are important for winning in sports and initial data suggesting that trans women maintain a greater muscle mass than cis women even after a period of HRT is insufficient to demonstrate even a reason for possible concern then we're just going to have to agree to disagree. so show us the trans women athletes destroying cis women in sports lmao
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Apr 16, 2022 22:24
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BIG-DICK-BUTT-gently caress posted:Here's a story that's been circulating over the last few days: So the solution is to what exactly? House trans people in separate wings as if they're akin to sex offenders?
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Apr 17, 2022 12:11
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brb just going to exclude an entire group of women because some people are uncomfortable with them, sorry lesbians, sorry black women (cis or trans) this is the exact same argument british terfs use against trans women, even those who aren't in prison for violent crimes
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Apr 17, 2022 12:44
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BIG-DICK-BUTT-gently caress posted:you can just say "i have no clue" instead of resorting to insults you could just keep your irrelevant questions to yourself and not reveal your ignorance to us all (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 17, 2022 12:49
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please change the thread title to "should transgender people be treated as an intrinsic threat" to more accurately represent the zeitgeist
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Apr 17, 2022 12:51
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still waiting to hear about a trans woman athlete who is dominating women's sports and there's just complete silence
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Apr 17, 2022 14:23
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look, colonel cool loves trans people, yes they are advocating for an argument that is also being used to justify exclusion of ALL trans people, specifically trans women, from spaces they need to use and access to live anything remotely resembling a normal, decent, humane life, but cool says they care about them
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Apr 17, 2022 14:28
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Colonel Cool posted:Should trans women not on HRT be permitted to compete in elite level women's sporting events? are you dense or something, it's already been explained to you this is based on the rules set forth by organisations regulating said sporting events
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Apr 17, 2022 14:30
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Colonel Cool posted:I refuse to believe that people don't understand the point of the hypothetical, which is pointing out that gender identity is not the sole criteria for having access to women's sports. i refuse to believe you're unable to process the information already explained to you, multiple times, by people who are nicer and kinder and more diplomatic than me, so it must be an ideological reason that prevents you from accepting the fact that many organisations already have policies about trans and intersex women.
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Apr 17, 2022 14:34
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Colonel Cool posted:I refuse to believe that people don't understand the point of the hypothetical, which is pointing out that gender identity is not the sole criteria for having access to women's sports. i could tweak this comment by one word and it'd be indistinguishable from what anti-trans advocates are asking for; a wholesale ban/exclusion of trans women from large parts of society quote:I refuse to believe that people don't understand the point of the hypothetical, which is pointing out that gender identity is not the sole criteria for having access to women's spaces. What is the functional difference between this and the argument of an anti-trans bigot? Are we supposed to believe that just because you don't personally dislike trans people, but are still advocating arguments that functionally lead to the banning of them, that you are in some way neutral or not anti-trans?
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Apr 17, 2022 14:36
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Colonel Cool posted:And those regulators are assholes. People can call me out for whatever they want. You know nothing about me. people are calling you out for making the same arguments terfs are making and rather than acknowledge it, you're digging down because this is purely a philisophical issue for you and not one about how you live your life
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Apr 17, 2022 14:43
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if you think issue of gender identity not being enough to justify trans women competing in women's sports, ignoring the fact that many organisations already require some degree of hrt, then what is any reasonable person supposed to think your position on women's spaces and the inclusion of trans women in them is going to be?
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Apr 17, 2022 14:46
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