|
Squinty posted:I was specifically thinking of a stat I remembered that said something like 17% of 7-foot American men end up playing in the NBA (from here, but the article is old and the sources are gone so I can't verify its accuracy). I think there's a chance that raw height alone, even ignoring all other background factors, might be enough for transwomen to have a significant advantage in sports like basketball and volleyball. For most other sports I think you're correct. They would still need to be over 6 feet to be above average in the WNBA. Women volleyball players are also generally above average height for women. While height is an advantage it's also one shared by your average high level athlete in those sports and it's not the only thing that goes into your level of ability. What is different from being transgendered to all the other variations you can have to your body that can give you an advantage in a certain sport? Why does that one alone need to be watched so heavily? Even on the idea that lower level sports will suffer I don't think I understand the differences here. What would be the difference between a 6' 2'' trans woman who has a natural height advantage over a 5' 5'' woman that makes that unfair but being a 6' 2'' cis woman isn't?
|
#
¿
Apr 7, 2022 06:40
|
|
|
|
| # ¿ May 22, 2024 15:39 |
|
|
Internaut! posted:Don't forget muscle mass to go along with that huge skeleton. Shouldn't this have played out in combat sports somewhere then? Boxing and MMA have had transgender fighters and none of them have dominated in a sport where the "common sense" says they will. Where are the examples of utter domination? And where does all this leave FTM fighters? Patricio Manuel has wins before and after transitioning and can't get a fight because no one wants to lose to him because they don't want to be seen losing to him. Gumball Gumption fucked around with this message at 16:01 on Apr 7, 2022 |
|
#
¿
Apr 7, 2022 15:58
|
|
|
Herstory Begins Now posted:people already called this post out for other reasons but i'll also add on the weightlifting side that wilks coefficients aren't significantly different between genders both with and without supplementary hormones Lol yeah, if we want to get into how goofy all the existing regulations are Olympic weight lifting is a great one. Are you short, light, but can lift really heavy weights? Good news, you have a natural advantage in lifting compared to someone bigger, heavier, and stronger because you can lift more in relation to your size. Which is honestly one of the best ways to measure things but also causes weird situations like the hypotheticals people are worried about with trans athletes and no one has really cared.
|
|
#
¿
Apr 7, 2022 19:50
|
|
|
Borscht posted:Regardless if someone is on on hormone therapy, the fact that they went through a male puberty makes a massive difference in their current physiology. It's why puberty blockers are more effective at repressing male secondary sexual characteristics than hormone therapy. Is there someone in this thread that actually know about this? I'm about 70%. And MMA has been able to allow MTF athletes to compete 2 years after surgery and 2 years of hormone therapy without anyone dominating the sport by transitioning. Considering MMA is a combat sport I think even less intensive restrictions would be needed in other sports but it's a good example of the conditions for the situation you're afraid of and not having it happen.
|
|
#
¿
Apr 7, 2022 20:16
|
|
|
Borscht posted:Nah. Couldn't give a poo poo about sports. You're going to need to provide some evidence because that's also as tough to believe as everything else you've said with what you've provided.
|
|
#
¿
Apr 7, 2022 20:31
|
|
|
How are u posted:I don't have any reason to believe that trans women would dominate sports by their very nature, but just to play devils advocate to your question here: I suspect that cis high school boys would not be interested in transitioning gender away from what they are and want to be just to win sprint competitions. And the entire fear is that this is a loophole that will allow middling men's athletes to transition and become dominant women's athletes. Which hasn't happened and like you said, there are lots of reasons that probably won't happen beyond even the biological aspects of it.
|
|
#
¿
Apr 7, 2022 21:10
|
|
|
Hot take whoa hey why is everyone arguing with my hot take stop dog piling me. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
|
|
#
¿
Apr 7, 2022 22:37
|
|
|
Aginor posted:I think the biggest thing here is anyone who swam in the same competitions felt they were hard done. If you competing with a 6 foot 4 pre-transitioner in the womans sport would you not be pissed if you spent your life training for it and had no shot? It would be like me wrestling Brock Lesnar. And I'm a big guy. Well no, it would be like a trans man in the same weight class as Brock Lesnar fighting Brock Lesnar. Because MMA has weight classes to separate out fighters. You're making an argument for changing divisions in swimming but not for banning trans athletes.
|
|
#
¿
Apr 7, 2022 22:46
|
|
|
Aginor posted:Am I not? Put everyone in the right division. That's why I'm not fighting Lesnar right. Thank christ someone sees whats I am saying. Surely things needs to be fair across the board? I'd believe you more if you were arguing for opening up pro and college sports into not being gendered and using other factors to decide how athletes are split into competing groups. But your hot take was that trans athletes should be banned from sports.
|
|
#
¿
Apr 7, 2022 22:55
|
|
|
Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:there is a phenomenon you see a lot in british terfs- if nothing else, thanks are due to our pal from earlier in the thread for demonstrating how flat out weird those people are- where their problems with trans people are inextricably tied to preexisting bizarre gender role hangups. somewhere in their heads, the thought 'the cops can't go after a gay woman for sexual assault' has been sitting as an assumed fundamental truth of the universe, and so when they start scrambling for a justification for their fears of trans people they push it out there, and react very badly to being told "no, that is not how this has ever worked." Admitting you're wrong about part of your world view pretty much means you're rebuilding it all and people suck at that and it's just so much easier to say "gently caress you buddy"
|
|
#
¿
Apr 8, 2022 17:04
|
|
|
Kalit posted:Oh yea, after that person kept posting, it became obvious. 1000% after the pm poo poo came out. But I’m talking about the hypothetical after their very first post, which seemed stupid but possibly good faith still Kind of seems like you just misread it since other people could pick up that it was insincere. Asking people to consider a hypothetical where they were wrong in a situation where they correctly read it seems odd, wouldn't a better question be what did those people see that you didn't?
|
|
#
¿
Apr 9, 2022 22:37
|
|
|
Like, we're arguing about if you could figure out if the guy who opened a post with "hot take" and then instantly acted like no one could disagree with him without being hysterical was being earnest or not. That's not hard maths.
|
|
#
¿
Apr 9, 2022 22:42
|
|
|
Trollologist is a gimmick account to show off how much you can get away with.
|
|
#
¿
Apr 9, 2022 23:13
|
|
|
PeterCat posted:I'm going to ask an adjacent question. Should there be a separate scale to score trans servicemembers when they take their annual physical fitness tests? I think those differences are so minimal that it's not any sort of real bar. Outside of that the military is going to adjust fights requirements based on how wide they want to recruit.
|
|
#
¿
Apr 10, 2022 05:10
|
|
|
CommieGIR posted:Body weight? Sure, that makes some sense. Do you have actual science to back up the arguments you're making about sports you've admitted you don't understand and don't think highly of? Like, some of it is misogyny but I also don't know any women in combat sports who have really been asking to fight with men. No one really has a problem with the gender divisions, just that people can actually fight in the divisions that are appropriate for them.
|
|
#
¿
Apr 10, 2022 18:01
|
|
|
The pituitary gland and hormones do exist and are not biotruths. Part of transitioning is changing those hormones in your body and we're talking one of the situations where it will actually matter and those sports are figuring out ways to figure out those divisions. Proposing ideas where punching power or other factors were measured and used to build divisions would be interesting and actual solutions to what you want but you're just showing that you're ignorant of the sport.
|
|
#
¿
Apr 10, 2022 18:08
|
|
|
Koos Group posted:Punching power seems as though it would be impossible to measure, since it would be up to the athletes to demonstrate it and they would of course pull their punches to qualify for a lower class. Oh yeah, I'm not proposing it as a good solution or anything. Just an example of what more informed discussion would be, that there is a set of criteria that you want to group up into a certain range to make sure it's a "fair fight" as much as you can. No one will want to fight in a sport where the divisions are wide open. I'm not sure who CommieGIR is even arguing for with combining genders in combat sports. I don't think there are a lot of trans women fighters looking to compete against men or vice-versa. Really seems like they're looking to compete with their gender. Edit: Like fluff said, fighters also work weight now to get an advantage. There is no perfect solution here because true fairness is going to be impossible.
|
|
#
¿
Apr 10, 2022 18:22
|
|
|
To go back to combat sports, if we're talking about active athletes Patricio Manuel wants to fight other men. He's an active pro-boxer who has not been able to get fights and any objection around fighting him has been either not wanting to be seen losing to him or not wanting to fight him out of machismo respect. Here's a full piece on him, I might have posted it earlier too but whatever it's good and a good piece on actual experience. I think that's important, we're talking about very few people when we are talking about trans athletes, they should have a large voice here. https://www.espn.com/boxing/story/_/id/31662608/boxer-patricio-manuel-transgender-pioneer-looking-next-fight
|
|
#
¿
Apr 10, 2022 20:08
|
|
|
Colonel Cool posted:Again, not an expert, but it seems like sorting for other characteristics is just going to end up sort of de facto recreating sex divisions anyway, isn't it? Maybe with a very small handful of outliers. Which might be a thing worth doing in a vacuum, but in reality seems like spending a lot of effort and burning through an enormous amount of goodwill over something that's a pretty niche philosophical issue. Probably but that's because we're now using gender as a short hand for all those measurements and characteristics and then going "Uhhh, guess they can gently caress off and die?" when those outliers show up. I wouldn't call that a philosophical problem though, it's a flawed system of classification. That's pretty technical.
|
|
#
¿
Apr 15, 2022 17:19
|
|
|
Colonel Cool posted:Fair enough, I suppose I can see some value that would make it an improvement over the current system. I still think in the world as it exists right now where half the nation thinks children transitioning is child abuse there's probably more meaningful battles to choose than breaking down gender segregated sports. We can do both. No one is saying we can't do both. In fact the only real reason this is an argument, considering the current classification system actually does handle outliers decently and while it can be improved does work, has been because people are using it as a Trojan horse for child abuse. It's really three separate issues being discussed here. There's the culture war stuff that is just a Trojan horse to roll back changes and allow more abuse. There is then the real discussion/problem about how our classes in sports are not as well measured as they could be and often use gender as a "Eh, well, if your gender is this you'll probably be like this" and we now have the capability to measure more accurately and make better divisions. And finally, the world sucks and there are lots of other places where trans people are being abused and we should stop that too but we can just do that at the same time.
|
|
#
¿
Apr 15, 2022 18:48
|
|
|
woozy pawsies posted:I’m being serious here with this line of questioning, I know it’s thrown around by assholes with bad intentions, but I am very curious what you think. I am a man who has enjoyed all the socioeconomic benefits of being perceived as one my whole life, and I have enjoyed (if they exist) the physiological benefits of training as one in powerlifting. If there was a powerlifting competition today that had “men” and “women” divisions, and I started to consider myself a woman today, would it be fair competitors for me to compete in the “women” division? Probably not but that wouldn't happen, hasn't happened, and is a weird hypothetical compared to the real world situation so like, who gives a gently caress? Why do people constantly need to debate stupid insane hypotheticals that don't happen when they have real world events about the real laws people are attempting to pass?
|
|
#
¿
Apr 16, 2022 17:25
|
|
|
woozy pawsies posted:So part of the reason I asked this is because I used your definition of "A woman is a person who considers themselves to be a woman." by saying " I started to consider myself a woman" and everyone has shown backlash to that. If things were so simple, it would be an easy hypothetical to answer. Why don't you just go try it and report back what happens? Then it's not a dumb hypothetical and an actual thing for people to discuss.
|
|
#
¿
Apr 16, 2022 17:31
|
|
|
Woozy isn't a transphobe, they're just doing psudo-intellectual bs about weird hypotheticals because that's how you post in D&D. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
|
|
#
¿
Apr 16, 2022 17:47
|
|
|
|
| # ¿ May 22, 2024 15:39 |
|
|
Anyone worried about the hypothetical where someone lies about their gender to trick their way into a sport so they can dominate it is free to try this. If it's as easy as you think it's right there for you to do and then you'll have proof from your experiment instead of proposing really weird hypotheticals.
|
|
#
¿
Apr 16, 2022 21:55
|
|