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Apr 6, 2022 01:31
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| # ¿ May 22, 2024 11:16 |
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Yeah sports are extremely not a level playing field on a billion levels already. Below pro level most sports are drat near pay to win (as in if you can get your kid quality coaching and good trainers and make sure they have the free time to practice... they will be extremely good at a given sport). On top of that sports are already unfair because of physical/genetic differences. It's doubly absurd because people hugely overstate the impact of hormones in basically anything that isn't literally just a contest of muscle mass vs muscle mass (which is actually very few sports). 95% of any sport is practice, coaching, nutrition/conditioning, game knowledge, and mindset stuff. It's not until you get to a very high level in sports where basically everyone is already maximizing those factors that individual hormonal differences are the determining factor. Imo everyone should be able to compete in every sport and it should be encouraged cuz sports are good for people and, especially for trans kids, it's a good way to get a community. Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 00:55 on Apr 7, 2022 |
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Apr 7, 2022 00:51
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imo if you statistically outperform your peers in sports you should get medals and contracts to promote shoes and a sandwich named after you at your local sandwich shop outperforming your peers is literally the whole point of sports
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Apr 7, 2022 06:22
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Internaut! posted:Don't forget muscle mass to go along with that huge skeleton. people already called this post out for other reasons but i'll also add on the weightlifting side that wilks coefficients (a bodyweight:weight lifted ratio to loosely standardize performance across weight classes) aren't significantly different between genders, both with and without supplementary hormones. For a while the strongest pound for pound person on the planet was a 100lb australian woman Weightlifting/strength sports in particular are an interesting point in all of this because people are already modifying their hormone levels for it and the tldr is that it makes a difference, but it's still 95% about your training, your programming, your nutrition, your recovery, your meet prep strategy/peaking routines, and then probably hormones. Hormones don't make a huge difference until you're already at a very highlevel and already have most of the other important factors in place. Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 19:49 on Apr 7, 2022 |
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Apr 7, 2022 19:45
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also as an aside, I've known hella 140lb women who took no hormones who were much stronger than pretty much every guy who doesn't lift or do manual labor. There's a weird subtext to the whole debate generally where people assume that female athletes are complete waifish pushovers and that some schlumpy guy in his skinny fat magnificence is going to outperform female athletes. spoiler: it's not happening
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Apr 7, 2022 19:52
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The question of 'why aren't trans athletes dominating in sports?' is probably the more revealing question and imo the more interesting one.
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Apr 7, 2022 20:39
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gj mods, ty
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Apr 8, 2022 01:16
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Yeah idk how much you know about what goes into transitioning lionarcher, but the full process is gnarly and not something that someone on the fence is going to decide to do. Like if you read up on gender affirming surgery and even have the reaction 'yeah that sounds like something I should do' instead of 'oh my god they do what!?' then congrats there's a 99.9% chance that you are transgender. Same mostly applies to FFS, too. There are also a bunch of steps to transitioning before that point that trans people find extremely validating and affirming and that non-trans people have largely the opposite reaction to and, afaik, in basically all cases you can not start getting surgery until you've already done most of the non-surgical transitioning steps. Unless things have changed from half a decade ago, you can just put teens who are unsure or questioning on puberty blockers with basically zero ill-effects until they are certain what they want to do. Or at least can where states aren't actively trying to keep kids/teens from getting put on puberty blockers. (also my knowledge here is partly out of date, so if I'm mischaracterizing anything plz correct it) Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 03:09 on Apr 8, 2022 |
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Apr 8, 2022 03:05
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16 year old transfeminine person who is planning to transition asap 'yes I should definitely get loving jacked and send my dysphoria into overdrive in order to win in a sport' it's just not even remotely a thing
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Apr 9, 2022 09:02
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d&d apparently relearning the paradox of tolerance in real time
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Apr 9, 2022 13:25
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Didn't someone gas the 'should mods be forcefed poo poo with a red hot poker?' thread within like 2 posts? or was that another forum and it was merely meant to look like a dnd thread? Because that thread was closed basically instantly without allowing the point to be made or to be refuted carefully and while it's indecorous and obviously rude, I don't think arguing anything as ludicrous as that is even 1/50th as harmful as letting people just openly post transphobic poo poo. It's transparently clear that certain subjects are not permitted to be discussed in dnd and it's pretty absurd which ones those are. It's bizarre as hell to me that someone breathes the word csp*m and gets an instant probation yet when someone wants to just-ask-questions about should trans people be treated the same as everyone else and they get several posts to make the point. I'm a bit sympathetic to this having happened overnight when I'm pretty sure most of the mods were asleep/playing Final Elden Ring XIV, but I also am skeptical that it would've gone significantly differently during the day either. I would strongly suggest at some point looking into how other sites that have lots of political debate have been forced to handle moderating it because we seem perpetually to be re-inventing the wheel of moderating political chat. When you force everyone to respond to all arguments equally, you invariably run off all the people who don't have the energy to engage like that. Guess who those people tend to be.
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Apr 9, 2022 22:38
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ram dass in hell posted:I mean realistically the current title always meant this, lol. It's not a debate with two reasonable sides, it's an oppressed group trying to fuckin' live and harassment from freaks who are obsessed with other people's genitals and/or who thrive on the attention and endorphins they get from taking their own personal issues out on a class of people a lot of people in society feel they have a green light to verbally bully, physically assault, and so on. There's no middle ground and there's no way to convince me that the transphobes have a point.
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Apr 10, 2022 02:19
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Miss Broccoli posted:herstory was literally a competition lifter, friend. i didn't do powerlifting competitively and though i got decently strong by strength sport standards, woozy afaik is both much more knowledgeable and certainly more up to date in his knowledge than me. i was mostly paraphrasing some greg nuckols articles wrt overall role of hormones in strength development and muscle growth. Also i have a major personal bias against people reducing athletic performance to hormone use and imo a lot of the yelling about trans athletes seems to come from a similar place of people making arguments that just have no connection to the things that actually lead to athletes performing well for long enough periods of time to actually become dominant in a sport. I think the hormone focus gets especially bizarre when the subject is efforts to ban trans kids from youth sports. Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 08:51 on Apr 15, 2022 |
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Apr 15, 2022 08:37
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woozy pawsies posted:That’s fair. Nuckols knows what he’s talking about, not sure if I’ve read his article on hormones though. I think some people have won the genetic lottery for certain sports, and hormones probably are part of it (along with many other things). And I’m bitter about it. In competitive strongman the consensus was generally that you'd get about one tier of competitive performance from supplementing hormones (eg if you're competitive at a state level without, they would get you to regionally competitive). Clint Darden in particular talked a lot, openly, about the role of hormone use in high-level strongman and the tldr of that generally was that they're both significant but also hugely overstated (and also incredibly overdone, as in people thinking that you need literally 4 grams a week of hormones to even be competitive). https://www.strongerbyscience.com/steroids-for-strength-sports/ this was I think the best Nuckols piece on the actual magnitude of impact of ped use in strength sports, iirc. He takes tested vs untested federation records a bit too at face value perhaps, but iirc he accounts for that later. Yeah I get that bitterness lol. Truly elite athletes seem to be winning a ton of genetic and social dice-rolls from having basically ideal proportions conferring specific biomechanical or metabolic advantages adapted to their specific sport to responding extremely favorably to training and recovering rapidly to being fortunate enough to have the time and resources and family and coaching and community support to fully devote themselves to their specific sport and so on. More on the subject of this thread, I suspect that it's specifically the latter reasons more than anything else that is the major reason there are so few trans athletes dominating their sport despite some amount of, at least on paper, advantage. Personally I want everyone to have the opportunity to compete or play sports. Most of our systems for evaluating individual performance already struggle to adequately account for the full range of individual differences to the extent that whatever your individual story, past a certain point your real competition are the handful of people that can keep up with you and who can still force you to keep pushing harder. Plus, for kids in particular, finding a community around a sport is a really huge deal to someone coming from a home with hostile family and the effort to push trans kids out of sports seems much more about denying them that supportive community than anything to really do with fairness. woozy pawsies posted:For those interested, Dr Jordan Feigenbaum of Barbell Medicine has a really good summary of the science regarding trans athletes and the ethics involved (its loving long): https://www.barbellmedicine.com/blog/shades-of-gray-sex-gender-and-fairness-in-sport/ It was written in 2019, i believe after USAPL's ban on FTM transgender athletes from competing in the women's division. it is powerlifting-centric but whatever, still goes over the literature regarding sports in general. however, it does not include one of Harper's latest systematic reviews, which i think is important for strength sports: https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/55/15/865.long How does hormone transition in transgender women change body composition, muscle strength and haemoglobin? Systematic review with a focus on the implications for sport participation I'm about a third of the way through this and it is by far one of the best things I've ever seen on this subject, ty for linking this. Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 09:45 on Apr 15, 2022 |
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Apr 15, 2022 09:43
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I will yell at koos if he does that, but also it's the middle of the night where he is so he's probably going to be a while.
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Apr 16, 2022 09:52
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empty whippet box posted:Questions like these are offensive because they act like this is a reasonable scenario which could potentially happen with a real trans person. It's not. This is the text equivalent of dropping that image from south park that guy did earlier in the thread, and it's equally offensive. bringing that up in a context that isn't specifically a discussion thread called 'should transgender athletes be allowed to compete? (yes)' might be offensive, but in this specific context it's literally the precise subject of the thread and I'd emphasize that woozy has posted from a perspective that is about as far on the permissive end of the question as it is possible to be. Currently the biggest questions from actual sporting organizations in nearly all cases is not 'should trans people be able to compete' but rather, 'how long into the transition process should they be allowed to compete.' I want to emphasize here that this question is one trans athletes themselves are discussing and, in some organizations, are themselves involved in establishing the rules. As an aside, imo let people actually participate/compete at any stage of transitioning with their preferred gender, but follow whatever reasonable rules are agreed upon by given federations or organizations for eligibility for placement or taking records. For youth sports, let trans kids participate in whichever gender they choose. Most significantly there are two wildly different questions here: one is a question about trans kids in amateur sports and the other is a question about serious/professional/elite athletes and how to balance competing interests of inclusion and fairness, insofar as that is even possible in sporting events.
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Apr 16, 2022 17:45
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yall really, really should look at some of the links woozy has posted in here and specifically on that noteempty whippet box posted:Is there somewhere I can read about trans athletes themselves discussing the question of "what if someone decides they are female the night before a competition"? Specifically, trans athletes discussing this in the context of deciding rules for organizations? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35jKmAdwaV8 It's also covered at considerable length in here https://www.barbellmedicine.com/blog/shades-of-gray-sex-gender-and-fairness-in-sport/
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Apr 16, 2022 17:52
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Kroc is also an extremely relevant person in this discussion and she received an insane amount of blowback when she transitioned/was outed, albeit she in many respects trailblazed the way for trans people in strength sports. I don't believe for a second that she wouldn't have wanted to continue competing because that has literally been a huge thing for her her entire adult life but the sheer intensity of the blowback was intense and strength sports as a whole were still pretty fuckin balls deep in some unbelievably toxic masculinity bullshit in the early 2010s. They kind of still are, but the culture has come a long ways, too.
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Apr 16, 2022 18:06
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BIG-DICK-BUTT-gently caress posted:Here's a story that's been circulating over the last few days: Who cares? I don't see the issue here
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Apr 17, 2022 12:18
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good on NJ for respecting prisoners' gender identities thoughBIG-DICK-BUTT-gently caress posted:you don't see an issue w prisoners reproducing while incarcerated? Ok that's certainly a take What do you see as the problem and what do you think should be done about it? And how is the answer to those two questions not a violation of civil rights nor also something leading to hugely more government control over women's reproductive systems? Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 12:27 on Apr 17, 2022 |
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Apr 17, 2022 12:25
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option f: provide inmates contraception if they want it
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Apr 17, 2022 12:28
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doingitwrong posted:I’ll be honest. I had no idea that prisoner sex was an athletic sport. This is the catchall trans panic thread until Koos decides that asking infinity questions is in some way actionable.
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Apr 17, 2022 12:32
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BIG-DICK-BUTT-gently caress posted:I don't know what the solution is, I know little about gender studies, that's why I'm asking folks w more knowledge and experience. Housing trans folks in separate facilities seems like the least-messy solutiom idk i think you should go read up on poo poo on your own rather than asking dumbass questions here because all of your posts so far sound stupid as gently caress and have nothing to do with the thread topic. The obvious solution is just give prisoners piles of contraceptives because you will never, ever stop prisoners from loving (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 17, 2022 12:43
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BIG-DICK-BUTT-gently caress posted:you can just say "i have no clue" instead of resorting to insults I gave you the solution several times and you never addressed it.
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Apr 17, 2022 12:54
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| # ¿ May 22, 2024 11:16 |
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Just want to say that I appreciate the people making good posts and posting interesting links because some really drat interesting stuff has been posted in here in between the various dumb poo poo getting posted in circles for pages at a time.Hawkperson posted:I’m curious to know if there is an elite trans athlete/competitor who has been excluded from competition. There’s no doubt it happens passively and indirectly. But it seems to me like the people who are actually being currently and directly affected by policies trying to address trans people are 1) elite cis women such as Caster Semenya and 2) non- elite trans kids who just want to play some sportsball. The only trans adult athlete I can think of in this category is the trans man who can’t get a boxing match. Is there anyone else? Yeah it happens: structurally trans athletes who have recently transitioned are kept from competing in most sports/federations/sporting bodies because most regulations around trans athletes have some duration of treatment/x months of tests at or under y hormones requirements. Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 22:36 on Apr 17, 2022 |
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Apr 17, 2022 22:27
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