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Borscht posted:Regardless if someone is on on hormone therapy, the fact that they went through a male puberty makes a massive difference in their current physiology. It's why puberty blockers are more effective at repressing male secondary sexual characteristics than hormone therapy. Is there someone in this thread that actually know about this? I'm about 70%. Ok but there's no evidence that this massive difference is affecting their performance in women's sports, so why is it relevant?
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Apr 7, 2022 20:06
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Borscht posted:I'm having trouble parsing that. Do you have proof of trans women dominating sport?
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Apr 7, 2022 20:16
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Borscht posted:Nah. Couldn't give a poo poo about sports. If there is no evidence that these so-called advantages are producing advantageous competitive results then what relevance does your "common sense" point about differences between males and females have to this thread on the topic of transpeople's participation in sports? If you like science you should try harder at it.
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Apr 7, 2022 20:30
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If you're good at science you would also understand that even though some individuals may share a characteristic of having undergone male puberty they may still experience divergent results if they go on to do other things with their hormones. I'm making this point before some trivial evidence that men's records are bigger numbers than women's is presented, because it would be meaningless to the topic.
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Apr 7, 2022 20:36
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Borscht posted:I guess I thought that was obvious. High school boys regularly beat the record for the woman's 100m sprint for example. Ok, so why aren't trans women dominating in sprint then?
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Apr 7, 2022 20:50
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Borscht posted:Because there are far fewer trans women athletes than cis women athletes. This doesn't follow at all. Why doesn't one of those high school boys transition and come in first place in every every sprint competition if this all works the way you're claiming it does? Harold Fjord fucked around with this message at 20:57 on Apr 7, 2022 |
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Apr 7, 2022 20:54
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I still don't buy it there would be at least one showboat of the millions of high school idiots out there.
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Apr 7, 2022 21:17
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What did Lia Thomas take away from cis women? Please be very specific.
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Apr 7, 2022 22:17
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I agree I understand why mods want to move away from position specific moderation but spreading hateful bigotry that is unsupported and pretending it's science is definitely beyond the pale
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Apr 7, 2022 22:21
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Aginor posted:Hold up! Where's the hateful bigotry? That's an interesting response considering that you didn't answer my question at all, you deflected
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Apr 7, 2022 22:31
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Aginor posted:I think the biggest thing here is anyone who swam in the same competitions felt they were hard done. If you competing with a 6 foot 4 pre-transitioner in the womans sport would you not be pissed if you spent your life training for it and had no shot? It would be like me wrestling Brock Lesnar. And I'm a big guy. Anyone? Or specific people? Do you think the people that beat her feel that way? If someone feels " hard done by" is that feeling automatically a valid basis to exclude the competitor who beat them?
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Apr 7, 2022 22:42
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Internaut! posted:After all the only reason anyone's even talking about MTF trans women playing women's sports is that we're seeing over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again how absolutely middling male athletes transition as fully grown adults, and then utterly dominate women's sport. Hey did you ever find any evidence of this? Cis guy giving my best understanding here on gender stuff. Gender essentialism is bullshit but it's deeply rooted in our society. So for a long time trans people were expected to perform gender essentialism of their gender. It's possible that they still are in some places though I think generally we are getting better about that as a society. But this really complicates trans stuff because a child might experiment with pronouns or "cross dressing" without being trans at all. Trans kids will probably want to do gender stereotyped stuff, not because gender essentialism is "correct" but cuz they've been immersed in it their whole life. My understanding of what it means to be trans is a disconnect between what your sex organs are doing and what you the rest of your self expects them to be doing. This is in terms of hormones mostly and physical development but those interrelate. Then of course that stretches out to the bullshitty gender stuff we do collectively. Trans women can want to do "manly" things as much as cis women. Problem is our society has entirely invented the concept of "manly" things to begin with and it's all bullshit Harold Fjord fucked around with this message at 14:51 on Apr 8, 2022 |
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Apr 8, 2022 14:02
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Yeah it feels bad to realize that you aren't cool and smart and better at science but just a huge loving rear end in a top hat
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Apr 8, 2022 17:06
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Those sure are not at all citations. You haven't even provided names so I only assume you are bullshitting. Are you talking about the swimmer who won a single event? Not sure her winning one event proves she is totally dominating the sport. There are dozens of sports and hundreds, if not thousands, of events but trans women make headlines every time they win. Your three examples, if real, sound like statistical noise. Those trans women regularly lose to cis women as well. You aren't providing any figures or analysis, just your gut feels Harold Fjord fucked around with this message at 03:12 on Apr 9, 2022 |
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Apr 9, 2022 03:03
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More iks with a mandate to handle obvious problems, like the blatant ur-fash dance that aginor immediately began while maintaining a lighter touch regarding the more hotly contested issues on the American left. I get that you can't be everywhere all the time.
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Apr 9, 2022 17:24
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I think this is a backlash to a backlash and the dialectical will restabilize shortly. We spent many years moderating away lovely bigoted positions. But this often came in the form of people being banned as they lost the argument. Eventually we started getting very low on lovely bigots and it became efforts to get posters banned instead based on whether they were American Left or International Left and things got very terrible for a while. So things got loosened up and the bigots returned.
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Apr 9, 2022 18:16
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While minorities are not here to educate their oppressors, I think this is a better space for those questions than the trans thread for trans posters to post in. And that it is a good to have a space. They are going to be asked somewhere and it is good to have a place where people feel safe to ask and can receive correction about their misconceptions while not allowing bigots to answer their questions with lies. If no trans people feel comfortable addressing errors made by good faith explanations from cis people we should shut it down, but so far it seems things are going well im that regard. I'd like tie that idea back to the critique of the "if x happens then we will need to reevaluate" where x is any thing that will never happen because it's not how things work. Here of course that thing, that will never happen, is trans women taking all or a large disproportion of spots in women's sports and cis women feeling like they have no space as a result. That will not happen, but if it somehow did it would be a cause for concern. It is good to acknowledge a falsifiable hypothetical. I think I understand the perceived danger, we present this hypothetical that won't happen and some lying bigot kramers in to shout that it is already happening. But it's not happening or one of the lying bigots would have found statistical evidence to support it. Defining this hypothetical condition under which the principal (not of trans women being women, but competitive advantage of trans women in sport and a theoretical unfairness to cis women) can be proven is useful, because bigots are always dressing their arguments up as science but it's very easy to show that the science doesn't support their view because we've defined evidence where science might minimally support their presented "I'm just concerned about cis women" and they can't show it does. Harold Fjord fucked around with this message at 15:48 on Apr 10, 2022 |
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Apr 10, 2022 15:43
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Sharkie posted:See what I mean? This belongs in the combat sports thread. Why not this thread? Seems weird. Regarding allowing things, people should be able to engage in certain consensual activities within reasonable bounds. If it's not reasonable to have smaller people fight bigger people, that's fine. But strict gender division is not automatically reasonable.
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Apr 10, 2022 17:28
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I don't think anyone's treating it as the same but many of the concepts apply. For example, internal variance of the segregated groups. Where you are born during the year and where the age cutoffs for participation impact children sports careers which then carry on into higher level competitive play.
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Apr 11, 2022 17:58
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Pretend I'm a moron. How is overrepresentation at the podium measured here? And is the podium top 3?
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Apr 11, 2022 21:52
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1700x sounds like a lot but when n=7...  Where's that 1700x figure coming from anyway? I'm still not clear how that one was measured but I really appreciate the effort post on the other stuff. Harold Fjord fucked around with this message at 01:30 on Apr 12, 2022 |
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Apr 12, 2022 01:28
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woozy pawsies posted:Hmmmm this seems familiar. Let’s whip ourselves into a frenzy and round up a posse. gently caress off with this. Just need a couple IKs
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Apr 16, 2022 16:31
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It's almost like you keep repeating bigoted talking points over and over and making the thread about you and your cis feelings. You have been very clear what you think. Others are clear that they do not find you credible or persuasive. Saying it again isn't helping you make your point. Those bigoted talking points are selected by bigots specifically because they'll seem completely reasonable to you. Colonel Cool posted:It's almost like I haven't been saying anything particularly controversial and a bunch of people got really mad without reading my posts very well. This is exactly how bad faith posters argue every single time. "I'm just taking the thinnest wedge of attack against you and pounding away at it for hours. Harold Fjord fucked around with this message at 16:29 on Apr 17, 2022 |
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Apr 17, 2022 16:04
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Average Bear posted:Calmly disagreeing with me is bigotry. Apparent calmness, especially in type, is not dispositive of anything at all. Bigot. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 17, 2022 17:16
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Average Bear posted:There it is. To hurt by being called a bigot to present any counter argument to the point that you have made no argument and are just an obvious and lovely troll?
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Apr 17, 2022 17:27
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Still no actual argument. But yeah I imagine you get called it a lot.
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Apr 17, 2022 17:29
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