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Reporting in from the northeast: yesterday I was mulching outside a bank (which was closed as teenth was on sunday) and got to hear five or so people exclaim "what the gently caress" finding it closed, and then further "are you loving kidding me?!?!" upon learning about juneteenth. It was hard to keep my mouth shut, but I do have to have some sense while wearing company colors. Also just walking about I heard random other work crews bitching or chortling about the "holiday - can you believe this bullshit!?" I'm genuinely surprised at how awful people are and it's hard not to go full misanthrope in the face of poo poo like that. I do think things like the holiday or forms of representation, while important to affected groups, aren't far from the entirely performative gesturing corporations and politicians will do. If people yesterday were complaining in that sense it would be so much more tolerable. No, though, just selfish ignorant reactionary outrage because they were mildly inconvienanced and didn't read or listen to news at all apparently. Step two is determining its because of the "other" (blacks? Democrats?!?) and then loudly bitching to signal/dog whistle so your pathetic rear end can feel both wronged and part of something. This culture war insanity is part of the reason I can no longer see political solutions. I know things have been a lot worse in the past but drat it sure feels like we're backsliding.
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Jun 21, 2022 12:44
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Voting and violent revolution both seem equally unlikely to save us from the course we're on, environmentally or domestically/politically/culturally. The "good" vote (democrats) are more of an impediment to constructive change than an avenue forward, and the increasing terribleness of the Republicans will mean we can never afford not to vote for the party that is demonstratably non-commital or even opposed to doing anything to preserve our state and our world. The bad things are happening, and they're going to get worse. The only way to overcome this is sow an attitude rejecting the whole concept of dems and republicans, the two party system, and what stability and material comfort is offered us by our systems. I'm not ignorant of how many things might go wrong during that course of events, it'll suck. Yet our trajectory is both doomed and unconscionable, we are loving damned for kicking this can down the road. I'm basically advocating the exact opposite of darkcrawlers pet philosophy of hate and division. Strength is confronting and working with people around you, let us not leverage hate but strength. I'm so unbelievably cynical and disgusted regarding the American people at large, but maybe faced with different paradigms many would be less interested in hating the current target of the culture war... if they felt some strength, some community. We cannot achieve that at this point with two party thinking, it requires an acceptance of the fact that our system has already failed. It Americans are so irredeemable as to make that impossible, then we need to collapse utterly regardless.
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Jun 26, 2022 17:57
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The idea that just shunning/severing people we disagree with is constructive or strong or in any way a solution is just so terribly wrong and backwards it should always be pushed back against. Just like assault should be illegal, yet punching a nazi is also the right thing to do. I mean, try to get away with it though! Also, not calling you know who a nazi. It's just funny that as our system and society are failing more obviously, with no indication of improving, behavior necessary for a working society becomes less reasonable and/or in fact directly in the way of progress. My coworkers are sometimes baffled by my belief that some sort of power hierarchies are necessary for all of the benefits of collaborative human action, all while I call for bringing the system to its knees. It's a question of the purpose and effect of the "machine" one participates in. Like, if you're in an equitable just and sustainable order, there will necessarily be a bit of individual sacrifice or compromise. In my experience, leadership and responsibility are tough and its much easier to be told what to do than to be responsible for organizing and directing people for the collective good. I reckon there's some fertile extrapolations from my mess of a post that could be applied to our leadership and electorate, but I feel I'm beginning to rant so I'll just leave this here.
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Jul 2, 2022 20:58
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Call me a doomer, but does anybody see anything changing significantly for the better anytime soon? The way I see it the legal ways we can project our collective will are voting, boycotting, mass strikes, and protests. Some of these options are hardly effective at actually projecting power, the legality of some is questionable (especially looking to the future), and they all require large amounts of somewhat organized people with some sort of unifying ideal, goal, or enemy. I don't think it's crazy to say that's not happening barring some extreme unforseen occurrence, or a collapse and failure so great as to completely reshape people's paradigms. That would likely be at the expense of many of the resources and institutions that we could use to improve our world and lives, and probably also mean major material loss in quality of life and thus, violence and chaos. The outlook on climate change and the cascading failures of our systems and natural world is grimmer every day that nothing substantially changes, and the changes we do see seem to be for the worse (at least in america, scotus just declawed our already insufficient regulatory capabilities), and finally the required changes grow more drastic and difficult every minute we kick this can down the road. The benefits of local support networks and community collaboration is twofold. First, it helps break people of the programming that 1) makes them dependant on the status quo, 2) easily directs their fear and anger, and 3) robs them of their ability to imagine anything better. If there was a chance to avoid collapse, that's the only chance I see. Second, if the imminint poo poo does critically hit the fan, those communities will be much more likely to survive. If we only see people in terms of left and right, that is a fractured and combative effort. If we're being honest about the projected trajectory of our current power structures, those identities and ideas become meaningless as only survival and strength through collaboration will matter. Leftist militia? No, simply communities that can support each other (and unfortunately likely have to resist actual far right militias, which we do seem to be seeing more of. All the more evidence that all this has already failed). This sucks, we lost and we're going to have to start over or simply succumb and despair. Hope this isn't considered extending the derail, but I don't think it quite fits in the threads fritz suggested and if you can oblige this idea it makes a lot of our BRJurgis fucked around with this message at 14:56 on Jul 3, 2022 |
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Jul 3, 2022 14:54
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Lib and let die posted:In some professions in some states, striking is already illegal. Yeah absolutely, and that will likely get worse in some places at the rate we're going. And we've covered how effective voting or protesting is at this point (for the purpose of substantial change anyway), and those too will also likely be even less possible and effective as things continue to deteriorate. And as far as boycotting, six companies own everything and our consent and complicity in this economy is captured unless you're living totally off the grid. We prop up this system just by working and paying for shelter and food. Failed Imagineer posted:Pretty obviously not. Fair point, I guess I've always scorned accelerationists, or folks letting the knowledge of how hosed things are shut down discussion of what can/should be done (yes its me discendo vox's alt). I hate how things are bad enough as to lend credence to the idea that destruction must come before construction, as I am privileged enough to be far from the front of the line regarding who suffers in that outcome. But here we are. weird vanilla posted:I think one of the things that makes it easier to lose hope is that it's really hard to predict the future. The chaotic interactions that we don't see, our limited perspective, and the inability for any one person to come up with every possible idea means that it is very difficult to know anything more than the rough shape of things to come (at best). I remember 'the end of the Republican party' articles when Obama was elected. Instead, the Tea Party rose up and turned the popular wisdom on its face. While that doesn't seem better to me, it probably did to hopeless republicans. Sure, but at this point that sounds to me like the people in Don't Look Up saying "so it's not 100%, we still might be fine!" as they don't apply any appropriate measures to improve their chance of survival. Our electorate and leadership is incredibly and somewhat willfully blind to the dire state of our country and indeed our very world, and any honest appraisal of this situation points towards increasingly, objectively bad outcomes with no sign we will meaningfully address the causes. Science can't 100% predict the future, but if I'm in a train hurtling off a cliff it's little comfort that my section has not yet launched. Sure, chaos is the true order of existence and we don't know what will happen, but in some ways this train car perhaps is already past the edge, and we've not even slowing down. I talk to people who (somewhat understandably) just want the nice successful life they feel promised by their predecessors and country. The suggestion that it won't happen, or even that it is in fact wrong for them to want or have it... it's a total nonstarter. They dispute the actual science suggesting such (with alarms and bells and sirens no less), and when they cannot dispute that any longer they simply say they'd rather die than go backwards. Captured people, willful dependants, just as happy to blame their neighbors or trump or whomever as long as they can feel things will go back to normal and work out just peachy without that pesky other. It's a parallel of what we hate about the right in this country. It is not strength or wisdom. BRJurgis fucked around with this message at 16:27 on Jul 3, 2022 |
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Jul 3, 2022 16:25
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Hoping not to invoke "pro-gun leftist" stigma, but aren't we at unironically at "nothing can done" legislatively? Even "working with what we have", any meaningful gun legislation with any significant effect is likely impossible, and seemingly still wouldn't be enough to address both our amount of gun deaths or our mass shootings. And what we're all worried about, this thread and (some of) the USA that is, isn't just some data points on gun statitistics, it's more than that. It's our culture. Even if we somehow banned guns in some real way, wouldn't it just lead to largely right wing upheaval and terrorism? We've been sowing this crop for a long time. Just to be clear I'm not anti gun control or even close to pro gun, but it just bugs the hell out of me that this is going to keep happening and be followed by days of political coverage on middling half measures that won't exist or matter by the time they have any impact at all, while we ignore the issues that erase a chance of a future. Guess I'm saying I'm done pretending our leaders system or culture can address this (or much of anything), the political circus makes the constant deaths somehow worse, and I hope people stop equating folks scoffing at gun control coverage with ignoring statistics or worshipping the gun.
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Jul 6, 2022 02:42
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Discendo Vox posted:You are stating the arguments employed by the gun lobby: that there is a cultural issue innate to America that makes gun control futile, that any gun control measure that passes will have perverse political outcomes and will also, simultaneously, not be "meaningful" or "real", and that gun control would create an existential upheaval. This is the reactionary playbook to shut down discussion of the specifics of any policy measure. The gun lobby won, we love the gun and we're saturated in it. A long fought victory over that issue is less and less possible, and would only serve as another massive wedge in the meantime while all of the other significant causes of our violence/decline go unaddressed. If mass approval/votes/action is what we need to achieve anything, I don't see how this cycle is any step forward at all given the state of things. If you want to call me biased because of I place the importance of climate change over other issues that's fine, but you must realize it doesn't matter that my argument somewhat aligns with the gun lobby when that was the thrust and tragedy of my post. The onion article is realized. It's forest for the trees lifeboats on the titanic level.
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Jul 6, 2022 03:48
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Kalit posted:Honest question, do you feel more defeated by gun violence than climate change? I ask, because I look at climate change and wonder how it's even possible to approach it on a global scale, since countries have different needs and are industrializing/expanding/etc at different stages/rates. But for gun violence, at least for our country, it seems almost/entirely localized to our approach/laws/culture. And it's easy to look at examples like Australia to see how to overcome it. As things deteriorate in the US (including more mass shootings), I'm seeing people who weren't interested in firearms start to wonder about having one themselves. I don't have an article or chart, but surely you understand why a person might feel that way. I don't think our leaders or system have sufficient will or ability to meaningfully address the amount of guns in circulation, nevermind the increasingly radical and divisive culture war and idolatry of guns and violence. I don't have any faith that we can deal with climate change right now either, but it has to take priority for obvious reasons. Any hope at all would involve casting aside our typical political affiliations in order to achieve a large enough number of people to get real concessions from power. Meanwhile the TV and radio show our leaders begging and crying and singing and praying and passing some less-than-half-measure that will by no means stop this (gun violence) from happening and it feels like an insulting farce. I'd love if we passed actual meaningful effective federal gun control measures. Does anybody see that happening anytime soon? Does anybody think it would stop these mass shootings within a reasonable time frame? One more question, a crazy hypothetical: say republicans do indeed get majority control (rather than their current minority control) in a few years and themselves enact sweeping gun control or even targeted confiscation. Imagine! How would that go, who would be targeted, and would you ask people to cooperate? BRJurgis fucked around with this message at 12:26 on Jul 6, 2022 |
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Jul 6, 2022 12:18
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If we can accept that the Republicans are hateful villians and the democrats will never be part of the solution, that our system is effectively in a state of failure, that all positions and decisions are beholden to money first, I think it's possible to convince people that that two party system needs to go or even that we must endure some sort of collapse to get it out of the way. I know people who voted for trump in 2016, people I've had heated words with over them spouting problematic old man right wing internet memes. It's taken years, but even they will admit they've been deceived by Republicans, that the culture war is a distraction, that if our leaders/systems can't actually address climate change (even if it's not their #1 issue, my acquaintances that is) they will never meaningfully address our myriad other problems. They will admit things are surely getting worse, that we need massive change. I know we make fun of survivalist and preppers, but considering the discomfort surely involved with making the changes we need to make as a country (and indeed world), a certain attitude of rugged self sustainability is going to be necessary to make it palatable to enough of the population. These are the kind of people who would usually complain about their very narrow personal qualms with the government, but they will admit now we've in a sense got it made, materially... it's just not equal and we have no control. This (like so many previous times) should be a moment when a new message can resonate, an outsider for labor, an actual leader not a hateful charlatan like trump. I think if somebody were to make Americans feel strong and give them a way to fight it could work. But these people hate democrats and liberals, they are utterly lost to democrats. They might not follow the news like us nor have the same grievances with democrats, but it's certainly not just culture war racism and bigotry. I wish there was anybody with power and platform who seemed able to meet this moment and overcome the obstacles to building that coalition, tea party astroturf style or Bernie sanders passionate supporters style. It's clearer than ever we have no way to even approach it using the terms democrat and republican, it's just too easy to divide people.
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Jul 13, 2022 14:21
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LionArcher posted:Look, a lot of D&D's general views on climate change are so behind how bad things already are, I almost didn't post a response, but the reality is making this about the individuals choices versus holding the corporations/country's/lifestyles of the top percent responsible is some very broken brain liberal stuff. You don't fix things by not eating beef, when this poo poo is not just allowed, by idolized by this culture. https://twitter.com/NiicePeaches/status/1548294601881989120?s=20&t=htJ6Xp1A_xtKU6q5zoBocw And I care about the environment and eat ethically sourced meat weekly, and I know that I'm 100% having less of an impact than somebody who eats vegan but has a kid. It seems an obvious and important part of our plight that our system and culture successfully perpetrate and accept this. We chuckle at lame articles in magazines and online mediums making GBS threads out "10 ways you can help fight climate change Wasn't it major companies (who produced the eventual garbage) behind major recycling PR? Or the anti-consumer-litigation "too dumb/greedy to drink coffee" rhetoric? I still hear that "coffee-idiot!" schtick to this day. Just to be clear, even if needling at This is all about capture, momentum. People are born into this and it purposely and effectively sets limits on what's possible, it openly researches and preys on the vulnerabilities of the way humans are, or at least the way we are now under this. In a lot of ways you could argue this is nothing new in human systems or society, but we've really gotten good at it, we nailed it in all the wrong ways. May be a won game, and we know its destroying the future of our species and our only home and all the other life it sustains. We do "believe the science", right?
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Jul 19, 2022 01:28
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I'm not mad that they're showing the masses how this went down, even if I'm skeptical about how many minds it will change. I am mad that people keep insisting I watch it, suggesting I don't have my priorities straight or dont fear trump enough. People that consume less news than I do. "It's just so important that we stop him you just have to watch it!" - what does that even mean? I already voted for the democrats, am I supposed to form a posse and start rounding up trump supporters and enablers? I already hate trump and the republican party, I know how bad and dumb they are and that they came as close as they did is an indictment against our country not some evidence that "our institutions are still strong as long as we keep voting democrat! (Or "The reasonable Republicans won't let this happen!") When I tell people things were bad before trump and that's why we got trump, they look at me like I've grown a second head, like I missed the briefing where we were assigned teams and warned against any critical thinking. Trump is apparently just some freakish manifested natural disaster that we have to deal with by -voting?- and the suggestion that any other matter is more pressing is ideological treason that exposes me as an undercover republican. I can't stress enough the dismissive condescension from comfortable establishment types when I'm not interested in breathlessly clucking about cheeseburgers getting thrown.
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Jul 23, 2022 18:46
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Tiny Timbs posted:“Don’t you DARE tell me to watch some actual hearings happening IRL,” I say as I spend all day watching politics YouTubes and consuming all my news through Twitter personalities I work 50+ hours a week and spend my free time helping my aging parents, reading about politics and climate apocalypse (already in progress!), and definitely smoking weed and gaming a bit when I can. What am I to gain watching these hearings that can't be summarized briefly in text? I already voted, I'm ready to loving fight. Actually, if your post was directed at me, I'm ready to fight dipshits like you too, and I'd rather internet tough guy at you than hit report because that's kind of the point. If the fasch is moments away from power, so is might is right. People taking this as the most urgent matter at hand who also expect somebody else to do something about it are not well equipped for the projected future.. btw, I spend 0 time on YouTube or social media chief, you didn't address what I said you just made a strawman to dunk on. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jul 23, 2022 19:06
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I don't know any studies or academia related to the idea, but from my experience I swear if we focused more on teaching philosophy and more abstract thinking in general we'd have a much healthier citizenry. I think philosophy is often the "teach a man to fish" vs religions "give a man a fish"... it aids one in navigating the human experience as clearly and honestly as we are able, without a lot of the dogma and tribalism that manifests so easily with organized religion (not to mention the associated money and power hierarchies often present). I'd even say the label atheist is these days unfairly levied against (or perhaps wrongly embraced by) non secular people, the idea that one doesn't believe in a traditional god or gods leaves a lot of room for questions that I don't think the term agnostic represents well, and being in a hurry to identify strongly with any label usually facilitates stubborn tribalism. I guess that last paragraph is kinda just semantics, but I'm just saying the question is more important than the answer. Anyway to my overall point a lot of the kind of sweet well meaning people who openly profess problematic/ignorant views tend to be openly philosophy averse. Seriously "I don't like to think about that", "that's just a waste of time", or "you're trying to trick me" have been responses from people young and old when I've tried to discuss, say, Bertrand Russell. The same kind of people who will say pleading, pained, unable to grasp context - "But All Lives DO Matter" (or, seriously, "Donald Trump was just critiquing Hollywood culture and saying women are conditioned to let men abuse them by liberal showbusiness!" regarding pushy grabbing). Being "good" for a reward or to avoid punishment or simply because somebody gave you a checklist of things to ascend to "good" status is a lot less constructive than internalizing that there is no objective good or bad, and then actively and personally curating your beliefs and actions. People need to feel like they're standing on solid ground, backed by something or somebody, it's totally natural, and it's not reasonable to ask people to embrace the frightening uncertainty of human meaning and mortality without giving them the proper tools to navigate that. A mindset bolstered by philosophical teaching surely facilitates better learning in other fields too, social sciences to quantum physics. Anyway the sort of problems associated with human nature may always have been here and may always persist, but that doesn't mean we cannot progress, it means we need to look towards the systems that facilitate manipulate and exploit our worst tendencies. It seems to me we've never had a more successful, powerful, global system of capture before, and it doesn't seem to serve the powers that be to have a world of abstract free thinkers. It's a bit of a chicken and egg scenario and yet something must be done. Also mandatory psychedelic/ disassociative therapy  Edit Shawn khahnery BRJurgis fucked around with this message at 16:11 on Aug 13, 2022 |
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Aug 13, 2022 16:08
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Why the gently caress would we ever stop being dissatisfied, angry, engaged... why the gently caress would we stop demanding more and advocating more pressure... when we know we haven't done enough, and we know it's always taken a fight, taken sacrifice from mass people to change anything towards the better. I just don't understand pushback against leftist pressure, like if we don't appreciate and prostrate ourselves before the Just to be clear, I believe in society, collaboration, collective sacrifice. It's a question of power and capture. Edit: there are allies to be gained once we are able to buck our illusion of choice. As racist and misogynistic and backwards as US culture is, your neighbors are less the problem than our systems and status quo. BRJurgis fucked around with this message at 23:50 on Aug 13, 2022 |
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Aug 13, 2022 23:47
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Made many loud declarations that trump will never face "real" consequences (poverty, jail, dronestrikes) and hope in one hand and poo poo in the other and all that, but it'd still be great to see him take a critical hit. That being said, would there actually be substantial blowback? Would it warrant or be paid the same attention to as the jan 6th hearings? How would the present (political) powers respond? What would that look like, an increased mass shooting cycle because we're accustomed to it? Or actual directed violent domestic action? I'm morbidly curious what the dems spin on that situation would be. Could they harm the gun lobby legislatively while also encouraging Americans to accumulate strength via... community and vigilance? Massive re-re-investment into domestic police state? Didnt mean to drive onto route 1984 and it really wasn't the point, it is a question asked in good faith. Edit* spent too long writing that to delete it but actual consequences + being sorted while democrats still ~retain power~ reads as a different kind of mad than I identify with, but let's just say dems retain power for the sake of the question. BRJurgis fucked around with this message at 02:21 on Aug 16, 2022 |
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Aug 16, 2022 02:18
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Turn off poster names/avatars in this thread for a week for a fun whacky gimmick. Will reports go up or down? What unions will be sundered, what alliances will he broken? Maybe everybody will be nice to each other. Will posters be able to resist cosplaying as their rivals? Anyway I didn't think biden/dems/anybody would cut any band-aid debt relief election checks and address the symptoms of unsustainable higher education systems, nor achieve insufficient climate preservation measures, or even somewhat mitigate a terrible SCOTUS's terrible ruling. I am legitimately sincerely "happy to be wrong", and I would be super "happy to be wrong" to endure the complicated chain of "happy to be wrong"s it will take to meaningfully solve any of the issues of perilous urgency that we face. I will gladly eat all these loving hats if that future somehow comes to be.
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Aug 26, 2022 17:07
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Around here people would buy a small box of nitrus canisters at a head shop and use the previously mentioned cracker + a balloon, actual whipped cream cans were the domain strictly of clocked-in bus boys waiters and dishwashers (the line cooks probably had something even stronger). Also, plenty of people around here seemed to know where to get nitrous tanks. Everybody goes nuts for it, and there was tons of money in it outside music venues. Hell, when cops came they'd just abandon the tank, take their fistfuls of cash and setup another tank across the block. The cops wouldn't even pursue they'd just tell people to gently caress off with their megaspeaker. (That was one specific small organized group I observed, but it seemed commonplace). I'm in the northeast btw. Regulating nitrus canisters makes sense from a government PoV, but regulating actual whipped cream seems kinda laughable. Also don't let them catch you with the tank at a music festival, don't know if it's the fear of people 'phishing out', the money and thus potential for violence, or just that the security guys want to do your inhalants, but I've heard stories of people getting the piss beat out of them/dragged behind gators.
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Aug 29, 2022 13:05
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I briefly went to college for computers (before I briefly went for something else before quitting) and I'm not sure I've ever had to think about what I learned. The "little bit of knowledge" I spent that time and money on would have been necessary for a career in computers, but it's only value to me was affirming I'd rather dig holes than fiddle with tech for a living. I haven't touched a laptop or desktop in months. I do literally dig holes for a living of course (among other far-from-computer tasks). I don't want to become a gimmick, but personally I feel theres somehow less value in learning how to operate atop a pile of products and technology in these days. I can't imagine how something like programming could be nearly as useful to the average person as, say, philosophy. But which one is focused on jobs, productivity, money? If we're talking knowledge for knowledges sake, anything computers (beyond the most basic understanding of navigating Operating Systems or the internet) wouldn't be topping the list in my opinion and experience.
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Aug 30, 2022 12:46
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Stabbey_the_Clown posted:They're both slogans and neither are strategies. Strategies consist of more than three words. I think you're onto something with "how do we get there from here". I also think your points are a bit stuck in a certain "preserving our way of life" trap. I don't want to accuse you of not being able to imagine existence without police, or being personally dependant on that reality... but your argument seems to fall somewhere within that. You don't have to, like ideaologically, "believe in anarchism" to know that human constructs of order and society are just things that exist because we choose to believe in and enforce them. One could argue most people don't want to fall completely into chaotic survival, I'd agree! But history shows that societies nations and systems do fail, and chaotic survival is a "truer" more powerful reality than what we've built. There are forces domestic and foreign that would endeavor to pull down our (USA) systems, or even the worldwide orders of power and organization. There are arguments based both in morality and science that our systems should or will fail. "Abolish the police" being a bridge too far really just brings into question whether the entire structure of our nation/world is something that should or needs to be preserved.
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Sep 1, 2022 02:48
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I think a mass shift in priorities and ideals (or simply mass upheaval) is absolutely necessary for any of the real change we desperately need. However, huge amounts of Americans agreeing with specific informed demands regarding the mechanics of our institutions... and furthermore the powers that be not entirely diffusing and misdirecting those efforts... certainly not probable! Wouldn't mass upheaval (admittedly less directed, ordered, and constructive) be a more likely? Historically and contextually is sudden radical change the result of the specific will of the people being recognized, or more a desperate existential concession of the system to preserve its own legitimacy? I know I'd get more flies with "OUR DEMANDS ARE MET OR WE BURN THIS poo poo DOWN" then I would selling "one weird constitutional convention dance to fix things that our leaders will definitely allow to happen (the team you don't like hates it!)" It just doesn't seem likely to me real change in this environment is an ordered democratic process realized, rather than concessions given under threat of complete illegitimacy.
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Sep 11, 2022 17:40
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Discendo Vox posted:Except they didn't. They ignored the explanation and presented an ultimatum phrased as an attack. I'm talking more anarchy and destabilization than revolution, but anyway you're saying your very institutional by the books solutions are so much more likely or appropriate that mass upheaval is so laughable as to be disregarded? Is there not historical precedent? Or did somebody who looked like me call you a dork or something?* *you keep introducing the subject of you being antagonized or attacked so I guess this is a quantifiable component of the discussion now BRJurgis fucked around with this message at 18:02 on Sep 11, 2022 |
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Sep 11, 2022 17:59
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Your insistence on applying hidden group think motives to people who disagree with you or even question you is like a full on persecution complex. Anything that speaks against institutional law wizardry is labeled some bad faith attempt to smear you, and any detractor is wholly apart of a subversive attack on your standing. I never understood why people would harbor such vitriol for you, hell I've even pushed back against it, but the way you're posting/"arguing" here seems like a bit. Edit if somebody sees fit to ding me please also consider DV has sloppily banded about an assertion that arguments are being made to burn everything to the ground, when it's clearly been argued that is the THREAT of force through which we achieve concessions. Misrepresenting arguments raises questions about comprehension or good faith. BRJurgis fucked around with this message at 18:38 on Sep 11, 2022 |
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Sep 11, 2022 18:35
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Discendo Vox posted:
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Sep 11, 2022 23:31
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[Rant about public transportation, environmentalism, the responsibilities of the state, labor justice] I thought Biden liked trains...?
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Sep 14, 2022 01:46
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The desire to blame other people for the ills of the world is rampant and fully embraced by the right. Not just there though! It's not only natural, but implemented and fostered at large. Cliche it may be but divide and conquer wins the day. I've been called a Trumper and such for trying to move the target when it comes to more... moderate/liberal folks in my life. Letting air out of truck tires and blaming everything on "redneck idiots" is easy, and counterproductive. This doesn't solve the problem of the hate and crueoty that plays so well with the right, but it frustrates me that people think just "being correct" is some powerful weapon against this. If you're not willing to talk to these people to make them your ally, you should really tackle the question of whether you're willing to loving kill them. Because otherwise, you're screaming at the void and waiting for somebody/something to make things better for you. Seriously, the trap of "such and such people are the problem" is dependant on the believe we have a real democracy and competent leadership. *this is regarding the absurd migrant missile, and how it is seen/handled by our "two sides". BRJurgis fucked around with this message at 01:57 on Sep 17, 2022 |
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Sep 17, 2022 01:54
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FLIPADELPHIA posted:Fascists can't be reasoned with. The fascist worldview rejects factual information as lies in order to justify their bigotries. So yeah, you're correct in that being "right" is useless against them. The only thing that works is shaming, the threat of violence, or actual violence. I guess I'm saying the difference between "us and them" (f I must say that) is the capacity to view and treat others as humans vs archetypes of evil. This isn't a "you're just as bad as them" argument. Empathy communication and collaboration are not just virtues, but critical tools that "we" can't afford to not make use of. Fascism as a system is an enemy, but not being willing to label individuals your enemy (until its undeniable or unavoidable) is in itself a way of fighting fascism. The only power we can really achieve and wield is massive coordination. And don't get me wrong, when I say fight I mean force. I don't anticipate seeing a lot of meaningful growth and construction in my life. It's a powder keg.
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Sep 17, 2022 02:16
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BiggerBoat posted:What? Right, maybe I haven't made my point very well and now that my head is clearer I worry I'm starting a derail, but I'll answer questions if you have them. The impulse and willingness to (and effectiveness of) labeling groups of people your enemy or "the problem" is what I'm trying to highlight. I think we all agree it's fully embraced by the right wing, to great effect. How else could they be rewarded by their base for being so openly cruel. It's not just "getting a win" over the other guys, it's the other guys are the problem and need to be dealt with. That thinking is what leads to people becoming unrepentant fascists. It's not just the right though, it's an easy trap to fall into. I/WE are obviously the good guys, we just have to best them (the bad guys) to fix things... a simple satisfying narrative.. That's why it's fostered and encouraged, because we have no real meaningful recourse but to out-vote them. We should resist this trap if at all possible because it's simple divide and conquer, an impotent display of solidarity within paradigms that are in significant part manufactured and forced upon us. An example, I talk about the urgency of our situation, a need to stand up and wield power, a willingness to fight. A lot. And I'll hear "that's so violent and extreme do you want to be just like those jan 6th people? Who's side are you on?" The teams are already picked, and folks suggest I'm not on theirs because I'm advocating a willingness to take action outside of their teams playbook. To be fair I live in the northeast, and I suspect many keep their most right-wing rhetoric to themselves in certain company (around me). Not everybody though, I've encountered open racists, and I make it clear if the poo poo hits the fan that ideology is putting them on the wrong side of me and something blunt or piercing. Fight means fight, not marching around with signs. But if shunning people is an effective tactic as an individual nobody seems willing to do that either. An elderly parent who supports trump might not see their grandkids as much as they'd like, but they are still supported by the family. Republican clients and business owners are served and patronized by necessity of running a small business or keeping a job. Acquaintances consume garbage chud videos and articles, and when they share those talking points they are hopefully pushed back against and argued with, at worst the topic is avoided, but they are not shunned or excluded. So the question is, who is really a fascist, our true enemy, and how do we know? People harbor all sorts of dumb ideas and practice cognitive dissonance freely, they don't fit neatly into ideological demographics. They're people, and our culture and systems encourage blindness and simple narratives. I say they are only your enemy when you can no longer do the work of exposing them to better ideas, and if one is serious about what fighting that will ultimately mean, it is only proper to be willing to communicate and collaborate first. Once somebody is your hateful and dangerous foe, what course of action are you left with then? Final note in all this, my main thing is the fact that we're destroying our world and its future. Yet I'm more or less surrounded by people that often won't fully recognize the injustice and unsustainability of our world. They want to believe things aren't so bad, not that bad anyway. It's easy then, for me to see them as enemies, because it's critical such worldviews change or go away. Yet shutting myself in my apartment is no more helpful than moving into a cave in the woods. It would be a personal action, entirely focused on myself and not on achieving what's needed (which is much bigger than me). I hope this isn't as exhausting to read as it was to type, and I know it's the weekend but i don't want to derail the thread as this is very much an argument I can't stop advocating. Or won't.
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Sep 17, 2022 15:22
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Koos Group posted:What is the migrant missile? DeSantis and Abbot spending money to lure migrants into vessels that trafficked them and left them like an old mattress to make a political point which could only be construed as a win if you believe in dehumanizing/hurting people (as the right is engaged in).
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Sep 17, 2022 21:08
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