Weird Bible: Zipporah at the inn

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Mescal: Jul 23, 2005

There are some passages in the Bible that are pithy and inscrutable. Here's one of my^� faves. In a short passage in Exodus that still baffles all, God sought to kill Moses. Or did he? This happens while Moses is on the way to confront the Pharaoh of Egypt, who has captured the Israelites.

quote:

24�On the way, at a place where they spent the night, the Lord met him and tried to kill him. 25�But Zipporah took a flint and cut off her son�s foreskin, touched his feet with it, and said, �Truly you are a bridegroom of blood to me!� 26�So he let him alone. It was then that she said �a bridegroom of blood,� because of the circumcision. (NRSVUE)

If the meaning isn't clear to you, you're in good company. It's all "he, him, him, she, him," so who is doing what? The traditional Jewish interpretation is that God tried to kill Moses because he hadn't circumcised his son. The traditional Christian interpretation is "God did what? I've never heard of this." The Samaritans (who still exist) rewrote the thing so God was mad at Moses for bringing his family, showing that another ancient tradition was unclear too.

Commentators generally say that it's a shorter version of a story that was originally clearer. It may have been shoehorned into another narrative because it was a story too important to omit. But it was too uncomfortable to include clearly and entirely. This reminds me of Jacob wrestling with God in Genesis 32:22, another gobsmacking baffler where Jacob fights and beats^�� Yahweh (God) and is renamed Israel. This story gives the origin of the name Israel--"struggles with God" and an origin of parts of Kosher food law. It's also WAY TOO SHORT.

Maybe Zipporah at the inn was shoehorned in, maybe not. Because it actually kind of fits. Here's the passage that precedes it:

quote:

21�And the Lord said to Moses, �When you go back to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders that I have put in your power, but I will harden his heart, so that he will not let the people go. 22�Then you shall say to Pharaoh, �Thus says the Lord: Israel is my firstborn son. 23�I said to you, �Let my son go that he may serve me.� But you refused to let him go; now I will kill your firstborn son.� �

God says to Moses, show miracles to Pharaoh, which won't convince him. Then tell him I say "Israel is my firstborn son, you wouldn't let him go, so I will kill your firstborn son." So this story is about first born sons, who are important in the Bible, except when their birth rights are stolen through trickery. So Zipporah's incident happens between this and, later, God killing all the first born sons in Egypt, which frees Moses' people. In-between there's a ton of plagues and a genealogy. It takes forever. (The money shot is where God invents Passover.)

In this context, which most readers have taken pains to avoid, it begins to make sense that in this story God sought to kill Moses' son. After all, why would God send Moses on a holy quest just to kill him on the way there? I think it's a sacrifice. Egypt took God's firstborn son, his nation, and God's gonna kill all of the first born boys in Egypt, and along the way Moses has to sacrifice his firstborn son to get his people's freedom.

The context for this is that there were still memories at this time of the ancient Hebrews' occasional sacrifice of children. See Ezekiel 20:25-26, "Moreover, I gave them statutes that were not good and ordinances by which they could not live. 26 I defiled them through their very gifts, in their offering up all their firstborn, in order that I might horrify them, so that they might know that I am the Lord." See also the binding of Isaac, where God ordered Abraham to sacrifice his son. The Binding of Isaac in our Bible is a blending of multiple narratives, in one of which God does not rescind his order and Abraham kills the boy. I believe that was the older version. But the story as we now have it serves not to show Abraham's obedience to God's horrific command, but rather an origin story of how animal sacrifice was a substitute for human sacrifice in the Hebrews' stories.

Now we're starting to get somewhere. In Zipporah's incident, the boy's circumcision appears to be a substitute for his death. In two stories here we've seen new rites replacing human sacrifice. This reflects the changes in Hebrew religious practice and serves the Biblical authors' love for origin stories.

Let's restate that sentence through this line of thinking. "On the way, at a place where they spent the night, the Lord met him (Moses or his son) and tried to kill Moses' son."

But wait. There are other people, real academics, who've written about this. The following is from Francesca Stavrakopoulou's King Manasseh and Child Sacrifice. I'll paste it in full, but the gist is that she believes in the story Moses, not God, sought to kill his son.

quote:

A key element within the biblical ideology of separateness is the covenant of circumcision. This is closely bound to both foundation myths. Within the Exodus narratives, a circumcision myth concerning Moses lies embedded within a Passover tradition, which argues strongly for the probability that circumcision was bound up with the firstborn-sacrifice. Exod. 4:24-26 reads:

quote:
And it was on the way, at a place where they spent the night, YHWH encountered him and he sought to kill him. But Zipporah took a flint and cut off her son�s foreskin and touched his genitalia with it, and said, �Truly you are a bridegroom of blood to me�. So he left him alone. It was then she said, �A bridegroom of blood by circumcision�.

The primary problem in deciphering the text is that it is difficult to discern who is seeking to kill whom, and whose genitalia Zipporah touches. Most commentators cast Moses as the subject of YHWH's apparent aggression, and consequently infer that it is Moses' genitalia which are daubed with the blood of the foreskin. This is probably based upon the premise that HTN, "bridgegroom", is commonly related to Arabic hatana, "circumcise. As such, this text is widely held to reflect traditions constructed upon a matriarchal marriage rite in which a young man sacrificed part of his penis to the goddess in order to appease her potential anger at his invasion of her body (in the form of the bride). If YHWH is understood to be the assailant, this coheres with the apotropaic function of circumcision within some ancient cultures. However, the wider context in which this passage occurs is the killing of the firstborn. This could suggest that YHWH is seeking to kill Moses' son. Hall argues that emending vet-dalet-resh-kaf, "in/on the way", to "vet-kaf-resh-kaf", "your firstborn", renders text, "his firstborn son was at the lodging and YHWH met him and he sought to kill him", thereby making sense of the child's circumcision and its function as a substitution for his sacrifice.

However, though Hall's interpretation is attractive, Maccoby offers an alternative suggestion which is more secure and it leaves the consonantal text unchanged. He proposes that it is Moses who seeks to kill his son. On the basis of this argument, the following interpretation of the text is to be favored:

quote:
And it came to pass on the way at the overnight lodging that YHWH encountered him [Moses] and he [Moses] sought to kill him [the child]. And Zipporah took a flint and cut off her son's foreskin and touched his [Moses'] genitalia with it, and said, "Truly you are a bridgegroom of blood to me." So he [YHWH] withdrew from him [Moses]. It was then that she said, "A bridegroom of blood by circumcision."

This interpretation may thus suggest that the circumcision of the child has protected him from being sacrificed by his father, Moses, as though it functions as a substitution ritual. In this context, it is notable that Arabic hatana, circumcise, as been related to Akkadian hatanu, protect. Moreover, the wider context of this story is the slaying of the Egyptian firstborn and the saving of the Israelite firstborn during the Passover, one biblical term for which is fe-samek-het, "protect". Significantly, an alternative term employed of the Passover is ayin-vet-resh, a verb which occurs in the hiphil in numerous texts describing child sacrifice, as has been seen, including that of the firstborn (for example, Ezek 20:25-26).
The theme of circumcision reappears within the Passover narrative in the immediate aftermath of the escape from Egypt. Exod. 12:43-51 specifies who is permitted to participate within the Passover ritual. Significantly, it is only the circumcised who may eat the Passover meal. The reason for this is made explicit: the uncircumcised are foreign, and �no foreigner shall eat of it� (v.43). Circumcision defines who �Israel� is, and thus may partake of her rituals of self-identity, as verses 47-48 make plain...

I'll assume you didn't read all of that quote, but the point again is that the author believes that Moses sought to kill his son. In my opinion this doesn't change much about what we've learned from the narrative. It does bring up another mystery: why didn't Christians go for this interpretation all along? It makes Moses look bad instead of God!

Stavrakopoulou also mentions that the enigmatic "bridegroom of blood" is wordplay. In the Bible, it's always wordplay. Here's another thing: where the NRSV says she touched his (whose?) feet, in the quoted passage it's genitalia. To state it briefly, in the Old Testament references to feet or thighs are often a euphemism for genitals.

Where are we? I've made it through one sentence, plus a little more. I need to read more about the "bridegroom of blood" stuff to say more about it. If you're a scholar and I've hosed something up, please tell me about it.

^{� I am not a professor of Biblical studies or professional academic.

�� And maybe tops, sexually}

# ? Jun 21, 2022 03:48

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# ? Apr 29, 2024 16:03

I. M. Gei: Jun 26, 2005; CHIEFS

BITCH

wow

# ? Jun 21, 2022 03:52

Doctor Dogballs: Apr 1, 2007; driving the fuck truck from hand land to pound town without stopping at suction station

goo d post voted 666

# ? Jun 21, 2022 03:56

Yaldabaoth: Oct 9, 2012; by Azathoth

The way Abraham really did sacrifice Isaac in the earliest version of his story kind of fits with the theme of a god who expects his people to do horrible things to carry out his will.

And Ezekiel 35 is pretty much egotism in its rawest form:

# ? Jun 21, 2022 04:07

Nooner: Mar 26, 2011; AN A+ OPSTER (:

I. M. Gei posted:

wow

# ? Jun 21, 2022 04:33

Colonel Cancer: Sep 26, 2015; Tune into the fireplace channel, you absolute buffoon

Maybe foreskins were a type of currency

# ? Jun 21, 2022 04:40

Yaldabaoth: Oct 9, 2012; by Azathoth

Colonel Cancer posted:

Maybe foreskins were a type of currency

They were treated like miniature rai stones due to their scarcity.

# ? Jun 21, 2022 04:42

SIDS Vicious: Jan 1, 1970

zippers are cool but man do you not want to zip up your dick skin or balls skin!!! ballsack skin i mean!!

# ? Jun 21, 2022 04:50

Twigand Berries: Sep 7, 2008

wait all that feet washing?

# ? Jun 21, 2022 04:51

Mescal: Jul 23, 2005

Twigand Berries posted:

wait all that feet washing?

No, I said Old Testament.

# ? Jun 21, 2022 04:53

SIDS Vicious: Jan 1, 1970

was noah the old testament

# ? Jun 21, 2022 04:54

Seth Pecksniff: May 27, 2004; can't believe shrek is fucking dead. rip to a real one.

I'm actually reading a book rn that's a literary critique of the Bible so when I get to this section I'll let you know what it says op

# ? Jun 21, 2022 04:54

Mozi: Apr 4, 2004; Forms change so fast
Time is moving past
Memory is smoke
Gonna get wider when I die; Nap Ghost

wow this god guy seems to have a lot of great ideas, i can see why he's so popular

# ? Jun 21, 2022 04:55

Mescal: Jul 23, 2005

Seth Pecksniff posted:

I'm actually reading a book rn that's a literary critique of the Bible so when I get to this section I'll let you know what it says op

That must be a very big book. What is it?

# ? Jun 21, 2022 04:55

SIDS Vicious: Jan 1, 1970

Mescal posted:

That must be a very big book. What is it?

the lion thewitch and the wardrobe

# ? Jun 21, 2022 04:56

Big Scary Owl: Oct 1, 2014; by Fluffdaddy

Cool thread OP. The bibble is full of weird stuff. One of my favorites is this:

2 Kings 2:23-24 posted:

23 From there Elisha went up to Bethel. As he was walking along the road, some boys came out of the town and jeered at him. �Get out of here, baldy!� they said. �Get out of here, baldy!�
24 He turned around, looked at them and called down a curse on them in the name of the Lord. Then two bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the boys.

Not one, but 2 bears. Holy overkill batman. This one below is also interesting because apparently god gets really pissed about a census and kills 70000 people just cause:

2 Samuel 24 posted:

Again the anger of the Lord was kindled against Israel, and he incited David against them, saying, �Go, count the people of Israel and Judah.�.

...

15 So the Lord sent a pestilence on Israel from that morning until the appointed time, and seventy thousand of the people died, from Dan to Beer-sheba.

And then when you read 1 Chronicles 21 it's not god that tempts David, but satan:

quote:

Satan stood up against Israel and incited David to count the people of Israel. 2 So David said to Joab and the commanders of the army, �Go, number Israel, from Beer-sheba to Dan, and bring me a report, so that I may know their number.�

A very interesting change indeed.

# ? Jun 21, 2022 05:33

sb hermit: Dec 13, 2016

If I were at an inn, I would ask the dungeon master to roll a d20 to see if I get drunk

# ? Jun 21, 2022 05:36

Mescal: Jul 23, 2005

Big Scary Owl posted:

Cool thread OP. The bibble is full of weird stuff. One of my favorites is this:

Not one, but 2 bears. Holy overkill batman.

Mauled 42 of the boys. 42. That's the bit that cracks me up.

# ? Jun 21, 2022 05:51

the holy poopacy: May 16, 2009; hey! check this out; Fun Shoe

yeah, I met zipporah at the inn

zipporah nother beer for me

# ? Jun 21, 2022 06:04

Bismuth: Jun 11, 2010; by Azathoth; Hell Gem

Mescal posted:

^{� I am not a professor of Biblical studies or professional academic.

�� And maybe tops, sexually}

Thats how you know the thread is good

# ? Jun 21, 2022 07:16

Sophy Wackles: Dec 17, 2000; > access main security grid
access: PERMISSION DENIED.

p sure circumcision was thrown in there because at the time they didn�t have soap and it was hard to convince guys to chop their dicks off.

# ? Jun 21, 2022 08:19

Mescal: Jul 23, 2005

Sophy Wackles posted:

p sure circumcision was thrown in there because at the time they didn�t have soap and it was hard to convince guys to chop their dicks off.

Let me be clear, I'm not saying that circumcision was invented as a substitute for human sacrifice. It existed in their culture and others before written history. I wouldn't be surprised if it predated sacrifice. I'm saying that the narrative frames it that way. It makes sense in a story too because they're both blood magic.

# ? Jun 21, 2022 09:19

AHH F/UGH: May 25, 2002

wow it's almost like it's a bunch of made up cobbled together bullshit, nutty

# ? Jun 21, 2022 09:24

BAGS FLY AT NOON: Apr 6, 2011; A Soft Nylon Bag

If man was made in God�s image, then that means God has a foreskin. If He hates foreskins so much maybe he should have made man without em! What a freakin JERK!!!

# ? Jun 21, 2022 17:53

Animal-Mother: Feb 14, 2012; RABBIT RABBIT
RABBIT RABBIT

Zipporah doo daa, Zipporah day
My oh my, God gets mad if you're gay

# ? Jun 21, 2022 17:58

Big Scary Owl: Oct 1, 2014; by Fluffdaddy

BAGS FLY AT NOON posted:

If man was made in God’s image, then that means God has a foreskin. If He hates foreskins so much maybe he should have made man without em! What a freakin JERK!!!

I KNOW RIGHT

# ? Jun 21, 2022 18:16

Seth Pecksniff: May 27, 2004; can't believe shrek is fucking dead. rip to a real one.

Mescal posted:

That must be a very big book. What is it?

It's called "God: a Biography"

It's a bit dry but it's kind of fascinating!

# ? Jun 21, 2022 18:17

Blue Footed Booby: Oct 4, 2006; got those happy feet

Big Scary Owl posted:

Cool thread OP. The bibble is full of weird stuff. One of my favorites is this:

Not one, but 2 bears. Holy overkill batman. This one below is also interesting because apparently god gets really pissed about a census and kills 70000 people just cause:

...

This passage is even better if you include the next line:

quote:

And he went from thence to mount Carmel, and from thence he returned to Samaria.

The bears thing is never mentioned again. Apparently for Elisa that's just Tuesday.

# ? Jun 21, 2022 18:46

funeral home DJ: Apr 21, 2003; Pillbug

Yaldabaoth posted:

And Ezekiel 35 is pretty much egotism in its rawest form:

If this was from Leviticus I�d swear that was a quote from Moloch.

Also the Bible really loves it some child sacrifice, between Ezekiel and Leviticus. Kinda hosed up!

# ? Jun 21, 2022 18:56

Yaldabaoth: Oct 9, 2012; by Azathoth

funeral home DJ posted:

If this was from Leviticus I�d swear that was a quote from Moloch.

Also the Bible really loves it some child sacrifice, between Ezekiel and Leviticus. Kinda hosed up!

You're suppose to worship God because he's the big alpha male god above all the others and true creator of the universe, not that he's the slightest bit more moral than them.

# ? Jun 21, 2022 19:00

Rockman Reserve: Oct 2, 2007; "Carbons? Purge? What are you talking about?!"

Big Scary Owl posted:

Cool thread OP. The bibble is full of weird stuff. One of my favorites is this:

Not one, but 2 bears. Holy overkill batman.

when i was a tiny lil christian i was taught that the reason god and elisha got so pissed about this was because 'baldhead' was basically a religious slur against prophets at the time

good thread, keep 'em coming

# ? Jun 21, 2022 19:18

Yaldabaoth: Oct 9, 2012; by Azathoth

BAGS FLY AT NOON posted:

If man was made in God�s image, then that means God has a foreskin. If He hates foreskins so much maybe he should have made man without em! What a freakin JERK!!!

God created the universe by jerking off until he ejaculated the big bang from his dick, cutting off your foreskin acknowledges that only God has the right to create a universe.

# ? Jun 21, 2022 19:31

BAGS FLY AT NOON: Apr 6, 2011; A Soft Nylon Bag

Does God have a foreskin so big even He cannot cut it off? :thunk:

# ? Jun 21, 2022 19:36

Rockman Reserve: Oct 2, 2007; "Carbons? Purge? What are you talking about?!"

the whole circumcision thing is fascinating from a modern context because despite all the hemming and hawing about what the old testament says about The Gays christians generally understood that the new testament was meant to be a new covenant, we could eat bacon and didn't have to mutilate the genitalia of infants for god's favor

then some idiot was like 'but if we circumcise boys they won't masturbate!!'* and it became a huge cultural thing in the united states again that's lasted centuries

*note: this is not and has never ever been true

# ? Jun 21, 2022 19:39

The Bananana: May 21, 2008; This is a metaphor, a Christian allegory. The fact that I have to explain to you that Jesus is the Warthog, and the Banana is drepanocytosis is just embarrassing for you.

*puts finger up to ear, listening to the producer*
THIS JUST IN, RELIGION FAKE, AND EAPECIALLY JUDEO-CHRISTIAN/ABRAHAMIC RELIGIONS ARE LOL-WORTHY LEVELS OF FAKE BULLSHIT THAT HAVE GIVEN THE WORLD NOTHING BUT TROUBLE, PAIN, OPPRESSION, MURDER, HATE, AND DIVISION FOR OVER 4 THOUSAND YEARS.
NEWS AT 11.

# ? Jun 21, 2022 19:40

Rockman Reserve: Oct 2, 2007; "Carbons? Purge? What are you talking about?!"

The Bananana posted:

*puts finger up to ear, listening to the producer*
THIS JUST IN, RELIGION FAKE, AND EAPECIALLY JUDEO-CHRISTIAN/ABRAHAMIC RELIGIONS ARE LOL-WORTHY LEVELS OF FAKE BULLSHIT THAT HAVE GIVEN THE WORLD NOTHING BUT TROUBLE, PAIN, OPPRESSION, MURDER, HATE, AND DIVISION FOR OVER 4 THOUSAND YEARS.
NEWS AT 11.

wow did you burn yourself on that take Mr Dawkins?

# ? Jun 21, 2022 19:43

Big Scary Owl: Oct 1, 2014; by Fluffdaddy

Isaiah 19:16 posted:

In that day the Egyptians will be like women, and tremble with fear before the hand that the LORD of hosts shakes over them.

god loving loves domestic abuse

# ? Jun 21, 2022 23:01

Meme Poker Party: Sep 1, 2006; by Azathoth

# ? Jun 21, 2022 23:48

Devils Affricate: Jan 22, 2010

Mescal posted:

Stavrakopoulou also mentions that the enigmatic "bridegroom of blood" is wordplay. In the Bible, it's always wordplay. Here's another thing: where the NRSV says she touched his (whose?) feet, in the quoted passage it's genitalia. To state it briefly, in the Old Testament references to feet or thighs are often a euphemism for genitals.

There's a lot of "kissing of feet" in the Bible. Were they talking about blowjobs??

# ? Jun 22, 2022 00:11

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# ? Apr 29, 2024 16:03

Mescal: Jul 23, 2005

Devils Affricate posted:

There's a lot of "kissing of feet" in the Bible. Were they talking about blowjobs??

i don't actually remember much kissing of feet but that's probably regular prostration that ordinary people do all the time. it's usually clear from context and knowing the tropes when this stuff is sexual

# ? Jun 22, 2022 00:15

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