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Jarvisi
Apr 17, 2001

Green is still best.


Pathfinder, but new! It's not like first edition for anyone who got scared off of that. It's much newer and fancier. Taking into account some of the good things about both 3.5 and 4th edition dungeons and dragons. Combining them into a new system with both more crunch but still way less than first edition Pathfinder.

:siren:Why should I play Pathfinder when 5E exists? :siren:
Look, there's a million answers for this one. For players it allows people to get into a slightly more crunchy combat system, an interesting three actions system that lets them do more than one thing each combat turn, and a character build system that actually allows you options and chioces every level, as opposed to simply hitting the big level up button and seeing all your numbers get higher with no input from you.

It also gets rid of Caster supremacy. spellcasters are still extremely strong, but a lot of their strength is in their utility now. The fighter, surprisingly enough is probably the biggest damage class in the game, which feels amazing.

From the Gamemaster perspective: The math works a lot better. My biggest frustration in playing 5e was the fact that the monster math, and even the CR ratings just seemed totally random and bullshit. In pathfinder the math works a lot better and it's easy to adjust encounters on the fly for smaller/larger parties. Either adding or removing a creature, or just applying the "Weak" or "Elite" template to an already existing monster to help adjust the encounter without changing anything else.

Pathfinder also eliminates the lack of rules and guidance for GMs. Actually having rules for even the most obtuse ways of playing. You don't have to use these if you don't want to, but they're there for anyone who wants actual rules for stuff that dnd would just handwave and tell the GM to wing it.

There's also the fact that all of the rules are fully available online. If you're ever curious about any piece of content you can just go ahead and read it.The Archives of Nethys are the most popular place to do so.

:siren:What does a player coming from 5e need to know?:siren:
The main difference combatwise is the three-action system. In combat each player has three actions. You can use all three to move. All three to attack, or a mix of any variety of other actions. There's a multiple attack penalty to discourage people from just using all their actions to attack. Encouraging you to use other actions to support your allies or debuff the enemy. A crit is +10 over armor class. This means that fighters and martial classes with bonuses to hit can poo poo out crits easier than anyone else.

As an example of this, people trained in intimidation can lower the AC of enemies for one turn, and lore heavy characters can Identify specific weaknesses of monsters. Either figuring out their likely tactics, or finding out any innate resistances or weaknesses. (A lot more monsters are resistant to specific weapon damage than in 5e)

Attacks of opportunity have been removed from most characters. Only fighters or particularly disciplined elite enemies (Bosses) Tend to have it. This encourages players to move around more and not just run up to each other and stay still until the other guy is dead.





:siren:Okay, I'm interested. How do I get started?:siren:

The easiest way to get started is to pick up the Beginner Box. Either at your local gaming store, or on any virtual tabletop product. This is an extremely cool dungeon crawl, coming with multiple premade characters, explanations of how to use all their abilities, and it even leans into another prewritten adventure if you're interested in continuing the story afterwards! It has a solo adventure so you can check out the rules in a smaller, less stressful session as well. It's pretty much the perfect product for anyone curious about dipping their toes in the pond that is Pathfinder.

Playing it in person is easy enough, but there's also plenty of Virtual tabletops available.

Beginner box for Foundry: https://paizo.com/products/btq02d6p Foundry is the newest VTT, and it's the one I'm going to shill for. Much better than roll20, and a lot cheaper than other alternatives.

https://marketplace.roll20.net/browse/bundle/8453/pathfinder-second-edition-beginner-box For people who prefer roll20, there's an option for them.

The actual physical box is available in pretty much any local nerd store or amazon. Feel free to grab it from who you want to support!




:siren:Adventure Paths! The Premade campaigns of Pathfinder. :siren:
There's a pretty big variety of Adventure Paths, with a few caveats.

Age of Ashes
The first one made. This is fun but I wouldn't recommend it to someone new. it was being written as they were developing the ruleset, and it shows. The combats are brutally hard and it's difficult to recommend this to someone over any of the later books.

Extinction Curse
An action heavy path that somehow involves clowns and the circus? I'm not really sure about this one, man.

Agents of Edgewatch
This one I actually have a bunch of experience with! The players are city guardsmen who are newly signed in. Working to defend the biggest city in the setting during a once-in-a-century festival. Lots of serial killers and vicious murderers, so be careful of some trigger warnings. Also some players may not want to play as cops, but it leaves it open to playing as mercenaries as well. The players are assumed to be doing nonlethal damage at all times, even with spells. It's a pretty unique and interesting path!

Abomination Vaults
A direct continuation of the Beginner Box. It's a dungeon crawl, and it's one of the most popular adventure paths there is. It's so popular it even got ported to 5e! It's been described as diablolike and extremely action heavy, so any players interested in that, this is a good place to start.

Fists of the Ruby Phoenix
You're in a martial arts tournament. That's it. That's the plot. Don't expect a lot of heavy roleplaying here, just big battles in big arenas.

Strength of Thousands
The players are new initiates to Pathfinders biggest wizard school. All classes get a free level in either mage or druid, depending on which stat is higher. It's also apparently one of the more roleplaying heavy pre-mades. The African inspired theme is also surprisingly popular for anyone looking for something different!

Quest for the Frozen Flame
An outdoor/survival themed adventure path with lots of frozen tundra and exploring!

Outlaws of Alkenstar
One of the newer ones. This is a heavy gun related adventure, and perfect for if your players all want to play gunslingers. Lots of steampunk inspired stuff as well.

Blood Lords
This came out along with the playable undead rules. The players are some of the few living characters in an undead ruled kingdom (Or not living, you know.) The first adventure that expects an evil alignment. The kingdom is Lawful Evil, specifically. Haven't heard much about this yet, since it just came out, but it's looking entertaining!


:siren:Resources for players :siren:

https://pathbuilder2e.com/ The premier character builder. This is android and web only. No iphone version available! It's free to use unless you want to make a pet class or multiclass.

A collection of various guides!

Every single rule available in Pathfinder. Online for free. Buy the books to support Paizo, or if you prefer having them in physical format.

The Iconics of PF2. Pregenerated sample characters

The beginner box characters

Jarvisi fucked around with this message at 07:28 on Aug 18, 2022

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Jarvisi
Apr 17, 2001

Green is still best.
Also feel free to let me know if there's any info you'd like added!

Toshimo
Aug 23, 2012

He's outta line...

But he's right!
Here's the "PF2 intro for 5e players" I posted last thread:

So, the big core concepts that define PF2 look a little something like this:
  • Game modes: All game actions are broken down into 3 distinct formats:
    • Encounter Mode: Starts when you roll initiative. 6 second rounds, and each turn is broken down into 3 Action units. Move up to your Speed? 1 Action. Strike with a weapon? 1 Action. Grapple a foe, Jump a gap, Hide? 1 Action. Spells? 1-3 actions.
    • Exploration Mode: A.k.a. any active play that isn't inside an initiative block. Measured in 10 minute blocks. Allows you to clearly designate a game action to take (i.e. Scouting, Detecting Magic, Treating Wounds, etc.) and while you can break it up with discrete actions like "I open the door", you'll be doing the background action in general and gaining some benefit from it. It lets players who are less aggressive about describing their dungeon crawling still "do something", even when not actively describing individual actions.
    • Downtime Mode: Time between adventures is codified. You've got your basic crafting and earning income, retraining of feats and features, and a host of other options. Then, the Gamemastery Guide gives even more guidance and options.

  • Traits: Everything you do is trait-based. And traits matter. They matter so much. Some examples:
    • Identify Magic (Concentrate, Exploration, Secret): Concentrate doesn't do anything on its own, but some things that disrupt your mental state would prevent you from doing this (i.e. confusion, raging). Exploration means that you can only do it in that mode, so it takes a standard 10 minute block of time. Secret means the DM rolls the check but doesn't tell you the result, they just give you information (possibly false) based on your secret result.
    • Demoralize (Auditory, Concentrate, Emotion, Mental): Auditory means the target has to be able to hear you (although not necessarily comprehend). Emotion and Mental limit your targeting and allow targets to have specific defenses for those kinds of actions. For instance, Mental effects can't target objects or mindless beings, like constructs or some undead. Emotion effects are less effective on some elves.
    • Heal (Spell, Healing, Necromancy, Positive): I won't get into fine details, but the short version is that this spell will, by rule, not affect certain creatures (like constructs) or adversely affect others (undead) based on the traits. No need for lengthy text boxes on each monster block.

  • Proficiencies: Every. drat. Thing. is a proficiency. Your armor. Your saves. Your skills. Your weapons. Perception (not a skill). Your DCs. So, what does that mean?
    • Proficient: If you have any proficiency level in something, you add your level to it. So, your to-hit, your saves, your AC, your DCs, EVERYTHING scales directly to your level. Why? Because it makes it incredibly clear that proficiencies matter. You hit level 10? Oh poo poo, anything you are untrained in is way, way behind. Better do things you are trained in. (There are feats and such that can partially mitigate this so you aren't awful at things, but you certainly won't be good unless you are proficient.)
    • TEML: Trained/Expert/Master/Legendary. Achieving these ranks give you +2/4/6/8 to your roll.
    • Related attribute: Get a bonus to the roll for every 2 points in the attribute above 10.
    • Bonuses: Every roll can have the following bonuses that range from +1 to +4: Circumstance, Item, Status. Take your best bonus in each category. No need for a bunch of maths. You get up to 3 total bonuses that each cap at +4. The end.
    • Example: Gimli is a level 1 Fighter with 18 Strength swinging an axe that he's an Expert with and has a Bless spell giving him a +1 Status bonus. So, he rolls his d20 and adds +1 (Level) +4 (Expert) +4 (Strength) +1 (Status) = +10. That's it. That is how good he is with every swing of his axe.

  • Degrees of Success: Forget everything you know about critical failures and successes. Here's how it go: Make a roll, compare result to DC.
    • Did you meet or beat the DC? Success.
    • Did you not? Failure.
    • Did you beat by 10 or more? Critical Success.
    • Did you fail by 10 or more? Critical Failure.
    • Did you roll a 1? Reduce your degree of success by 1 step.
    • Did you roll a 20? Increase your degree of success by 1 step.
    • Yes, you can fail on a 20 and succeed on a 1. But only in extreme cases. What is interesting is that every point of bonus or penalty counts big now, because it moves you not just closer to success or failure, but also critical success and failure.

  • But what about BAB, CMB, CMD, acronym, acronym, acronym???
    • Dead as hell.
    • I showed above how to get your attack bonus. Strikes (basic attack action) and many other things that were previously maneuvers (Shoving, Grappling, Knockdowns, etc.) are now tagged "Attack". If you do more than 1 Attack action on your turn, you suffer a Multiple Attack Penalty. Your second attack is at -5 and each attack after that is at -10. Some things will mitigate this (i.e. Agile traited weapons), and other things will get stronger based on your penalty (i.e. Press traited feats). The same penalty applies regardless if you are using a Strike, a maneuver, or a spell. If it has the Attack trait, it uses this system.
    • Defenses are DCs based on the targeted stat. For instance, Grapples and Shoves compare you Athletics roll to the target's Fortitude DC (their Fortitude save bonus +10). Creating a diversion is a Deception check vs. the target's Perception DC.

  • How about "Encounter" or "Short Rest" abilities? These are mimiced by the Focus Spell System.
    • Every time you get a new Focus Spell (largely through feats), you get +1 Focus Point Pool (max 3).
    • Each class with Focus Spells gets a 10-minute Exploration activity to recharge 1 Focus Point.
    • Most classes with Focus Spells gets additional feats to recharge extra points per 10-minute block.
    • Each Focus Spell costs 1 point to cast and the Pool is shared between all your spells.

  • Character creation is done through the "ABCD" method:
    • Ancestry: The concept formerly known as "Race". Gives you a Heritage feature, base HP, movement speed, languages, vision, and ability modifiers (see below).
    • Background: Gives you 2 more semi-customizable ability boosts, a skill, and an associated skill feat.
    • Class: Gives your character a fundamental chassis, including key ability score, hp/level, proficiencies (skills, equipment, saves, and perception (which is not a skill)), and your basic ability set.
    • Don't know why they used an "ABC" acronym when you are only 75% of the way done.
    • Then, by level, characters advance by picking up more feats in 4 categories: Ancestry, Class, Skill, and General. Feats are gained separately and generally do not compete (although skill feats are a subset of general feat and you can use your general feat slot to get a skill feat, instead).

      Attributes are handled as follows:
      • Start with a block of straight 10s in STR/DEX/CON/INT/WIS/CHA.
      • Ancestry +2 to three attributes and -2 to a fourth. Two of those increases are fixed, one of them is wildcard. (Humans, being generalists, just get two +2 wildcards, no penalty).
      • Background gives two more +2s, one chosen from a pair defined by the background, the other free.
      • Class gives +2 to your key ability (some classes have more than one ability to choose, but you only get a boost to that one).
      • Four wildcard +2s to dole out to 4 different attributes.
      • No ability can start above 18.
      • You cannot assign two boosts to the same score in the same step.
      • You can (optionally) take a two -2 flaws to two different scores to get an extra boost during the ancestry step. There's some extra rules for this, but basically it's a pretty steep penalty that lets you still play an ancestry that gets a penalty to your class's key ability without being too far behind.
      • When getting more ability boosts via leveling up, you get 4 wildcards, but boosting any skill past 18 only boosts it by 1 each time you advance, so scores cap pretty low.
      • Otherwise, you'll never really see odd ability scores, which were pretty useless anyway.

      So, I'll give an example character, so you can see it all come together.

      Gimli, son of Gloin, son of Copyright Infringement:
      • Gimli is a Dwarf, who has a base of 10 HP, a Speed of 20ft, a clan dagger, and gets +2 CON/WIS, -2 CHA, and a free boost, which we'll assign to STR.
      • Gimli is a Strong-Blooded Dwarf, so his Heritage feature is poison resistance and better saves against poison.
      • Gimli picks a first level Ancestry feat, so he'll take Dwarven Weapon Familiarity, which gives him access and proficiencies in advanced Dwarven weapons, in this case, for the Dwarven War Axe.
      • Gimli, being from Durin's line, is a Noble, so we'll give him that Background. He gets two boosts, one of which must be INT or CHA. Being a friendly sort, we'll give his fixed boost to CHA, and his second, free boost, to STR. He'll also get proficiency in the Society skill, Genealogy Lore skill, and the Courtly Graces skill feat.
      • Finally, Gimli is a Fighter, and we'll choose to make STR his key ability (DEX is also an option), which gives him +2 STR. He also gets 10 more HP, and all of the following proficiencies:
      • Expert Perception
      • Expert Fortitude and Reflex saves
      • Trained Will Saves
      • Expert in Unarmed attacks, Simple, and Martial weapons (his Ancestry feat also applies this to his martial and advanced Dwarf weapons)
      • Trained in advanced weapons
      • Trained in all armor and unarmored defense
      • Trained in Fighter class DC
      • Trained Athletics skill (we could have chosen Acrobatics, instead)
      • Trained in 3 more skills: We'll take Acrobatics, Intimidation, and Survival.


      • For being a fighter, he also gets the Attack of Opportunity reaction (this is rare among both players and enemies in this edition, only fighters and select monsters get it, natively) and the Shield Block general feat, which lets you use your shield to reduce damage taken.
      • Gimli also gets a level 1 Fighter feat, and since he's got stubby short Dwarf legs, we'll give him a way to engage a little faster. He'll take Sudden Charge, which lets him, if he hasn't attacked yet, move twice for the normal action cost, and then get a Strike in if he ends adjacent to a foe.
      • To finish, Gimli also gets four free ability boosts, so we'll give him +2 to STR/CON/WIS/CHA.

        Gimli's final attribute total looks like:
        STR: 18 (A/B/C/F)
        DEX: 10
        CON: 14 (A/F)
        INT: 10
        WIS: 14 (A/F)
        CHA: 12 (-A/B/F)

        With a starting 22 HP (10 Ancestry + 10 Class + 2 CON), and +7/+5/+5 Fort/Ref/Will saves.




So, other than the above, what are highlights about the system?
  • Multiclassing/prestige classing is super simple. It's called Archetyping and you do it by simply skipping a Class feat and instead taking an Archetype feat. That feat gives you some bonuses, and chains to further feats you can take at later levels by, again, skipping your class feat. That simple. You are always still your main class, through and through. No complex formulas of bonuses or spells slots. You are your main class. You just take some other feats.
  • Weapons and Armor are diverse. There's dozens of weapon traits and every weapon has 1 or more. In addition, weapon families can add different bonuses when you crit. Armor isn't always about just grabbing the highest AC in a type. Many have extra bonuses or penalties. Picking the ones that fit your build makes all of it feel less samey. Also, customizing your magic weapons and armor feels enjoyable because basic bonuses like to-hit and AC don't compete with cool flavor bonuses like ghost touch or camouflage.
  • Rarity: Spells and items that would short-circuit a game's flow (i.e. Zone of Truth or Locate) or be otherwise incredibly powerful for PC use (i.e. Geas or Resurrect) are marked as higher rarity and are not player-facing by default. It lets DMs have them a tools, and be able to let players use them on a limited basis without players feeling entitled to them.
  • Healing matters, and not just ping-ponging at 0hp. When you drop to 0hp, you have plenty of opportunity to not be dead, and to get healed back into the fight, but the opportunity cost is massive. Even if you get healed immediately, you drop down in initiative, and you generally have to spend at least 2 actions on your next turn standing up and picking up your dropped weapon (and maybe even a second weapon or shield with a 3rd action). And all of these will provoke AoOs. You'll basically lose you whole turn when you go down and so will the person healing you.
  • Caster/martial balance feels a lot better, at least coming from 5E. The fact that spells take more actions, and have more restrictions feels like the choices you make with them matter more.
  • With the release of the Gamemastery Guide, the game gives you not only a metric ton of charts and tables to mechanically shore up your game, but a lot of discussion goes into flavor and ways to make the systems interesting, fun, and engaging. It's actually very good at explaining WHY you should do some things and not just HOW.
  • Characters really feel complete at level 1, unlike how 5E makes you wait until you get a subclass at level 2 or 3, or until you get a feat at 4 to feel like your build is more than the local shitfarmer. A level 1 bog standard fighter has a minimum of 5 skills and 4 feats. That's enough to actually feel like a somebody.

So, what don't I love?
  • The Alchemist class is really bad, especially the mutagenist. They are already throwing errata at it, but it got reworked late in design when the magic item system changed and it's still underpowered and awkward.
  • Combat Cantrips feel real awkward. Caster clerics don't have a real power damage cantrip and most everyone else gets Electric Arc which is basically the hammer when every single monster (or even better, 2 monsters) is a nail.
  • Clerics are still Big drat Heals, and while they can definitely do other things, and other people CAN heal, clerics just feel like healing on EZMODE and that's kind of a shame.
  • Some builds lack diversity and others are swimming in it. Clerics have almost infinite possibilities, between dozens of unique dieties, each with their own core customizations, subclasses, spell lists, etc. A Rogue has levels where their subclass nearly forces feat selection, so it doesn't always feel great.

So, in summary, Pathfinder 2E is a system of contrasts.

SilverMike
Sep 17, 2007

TBD


Might be good to mention that Paizo has teamed up with Foundry Virtual Tabletop to start releasing full Adventure Paths there. Beginner's Box, Abomination Vaults, Outlaws of Alkenstar, and some Bounties are fully released as of August 2022. The quality (for Abomination Vaults, anyway) is very good and my group will probably pick up more of them after we're done AV.

Content links for Paizo and Foundry VTT are here.

Toshimo
Aug 23, 2012

He's outta line...

But he's right!

This is a link to 1e nethys.

Also, I'd post a link to the download for the Iconic Pregens as they are good sample characters.

Roadie
Jun 30, 2013

SilverMike posted:

Might be good to mention that Paizo has teamed up with Foundry Virtual Tabletop to start releasing full Adventure Paths there. Beginner's Box, Abomination Vaults, Outlaws of Alkenstar, and some Bounties are fully released as of August 2022. The quality (for Abomination Vaults, anyway) is very good and my group will probably pick up more of them after we're done AV.

Content links for Paizo and Foundry VTT are here.

I know someone who used the official Foundry VTT release for Outlaws of Alkenstar and said it was fantastic, so it seems like it's consistent good results and not just a one-off.

Jarvisi
Apr 17, 2001

Green is still best.

Toshimo posted:

This is a link to 1e nethys.

Also, I'd post a link to the download for the Iconic Pregens as they are good sample characters.

Fixed and added!

The Slack Lagoon
Jun 17, 2008



Roadie posted:

I know someone who used the official Foundry VTT release for Outlaws of Alkenstar and said it was fantastic, so it seems like it's consistent good results and not just a one-off.

Just started a campaign with 4 fellow forums posters of Outlaws of Alkenstar, and so far so good!

After running a session of pf2e the things I thought I didn't like about pf2e are actually just the things the GM for the only pf2e game I have played in, for which I did not like that GM style.

SirFozzie
Mar 28, 2004
Goombatta!
The group put up with one of it members (name: me) being an inveterate punster, so it was fun.

Mostly because I have a garbage pit mind and anything can trigger a pun in my brain. Like when another character named Ezra missed an attack roll, and then I hit. I had to mention that it was "Good that I was Better than Ezra", (you have to be a certain age to recognize THAT reference)

Pinwiz11
Jan 26, 2009

I'm becom-, I'm becom-,
I'm becoming
Tana in, Tana in my mind.



Was Quest for the Frozen Flame skipped on accident?

Jarvisi
Apr 17, 2001

Green is still best.

Pinwiz11 posted:

Was Quest for the Frozen Flame skipped on accident?

Mainly me forgetting it exists!

Toshimo
Aug 23, 2012

He's outta line...

But he's right!
Here's a sample of PF2E combat I built off a reddit post using the sort of tactics and actions that you might expect to see, even at Level 1:

The Party:
  • Swashbuckler (Wit)
  • Bard
  • Fighter
  • Rogue
The situation:
  • The party spots a Hellknight coming down the road.
  • The Rogue, having been Avoiding Notice as an Exploration Activity, hides in the woods.
  • The Bard and Swashbuckler start hollering that the Fighter is attacking them.
Initiative:
  • Bard: Rolls Deception(CHA) (19)
  • Hellknight: Rolls Perception(WIS) (18)
  • Swashbuckler: Rolls Deception(CHA) (17)
  • Rogue: Rolls Stealth(DEX) (16)
  • Fighter: Rolls Perception(WIS) (15)
Round 1:
  • Bard Delays, waiting for the Hellknight to close.
  • Hellknight Strides in to intercept the Fighter.
  • Swashbuckler uses Bon Mot to tell the Hellknight how dumb they were for falling for their ruse and gains Panache. They then spend their remaining 2 Actions to Ready a Confident Finisher after the Fighter acts.
  • Bard returns to Initiative. Casts Fear for 2 Actions, which targets the Hellknight's Will Save, which has been lowered by Bon Mot. The Hellknight fails and is Frightened 2, lowering all of their DCs and Checks (including AC, Saves, and Attacks) by 2. They use their 3rd Action to cast Inspire Courage, increasing all party member Attack and Damage rolls by 1.
  • Rogue Delays, waiting for the Fighter to set them up.
  • Fighter Strides to close the gap to the Hellknight. Then, the Fighter Trips the Hellknight. Because the Frightened condition has lowered the Hellknight's DCs by 2 and the Bard is playing Inspire Courage for +1 to the Attack roll (Trip is Attack tagged), the Fighter succeeds and the Hellknight falls, becoming Prone and Flat-footed. The Fighter follows up with a sword Strike. Because this is the 2nd Attack of the turn, the fighter has -5 to the roll, but that is made up for by Flat-footed (-2 AC), Frightened (-2 AC), and Inspire Courage (+1 Attack).
  • Now that the Hellknight is vulnerable, the Swashbuckler uses their Delayed action unleash a Confident Finisher. They have all of the bonuses as the Fighter, but not the Multiple Attack Penalty. Also, since they have Panache, they deal 2d6 bonus Precision damage. They are very likely to Critically Hit.
  • Rogue now Strides in from the woods, Flanking with the Fighter, and Strikes twice, with all of the bonuses and gaining bonus Sneak Attack precision damage on each strike as the foe is Flat-footed.

Round 2:
The Hellknight is in dire straits, and attempting to stand will result in the Fighter getting an Attack of Opportunity Strike at full bonus, since Multiple Attack Penalty doesn't apply off-turn.

VikingofRock
Aug 24, 2008




It's probably worth mentioning that there is a very very good but unofficial character builder at https://pathbuilder2e.com/. Most of the rules are in there for free, and for a one-time $5 payment you can unlock some extra goodies, like (IIRC) pets, common variant rules (like Free Archetype), and the ability to save to Google Drive. There is also an Android app, which also has a $5 upgrade to get the same features -- these two upgrades are considered separate products, though, and don't transfer from one platform to another.

Jarvisi posted:

Pathfinder also eliminates the lack of rules and guidance for GMs. Actually having rules for even the most obtuse ways of playing. You don't have to use these if you don't want to, but they're there for anyone who wants actual rules for stuff that dnd would just handwave and tell the GM to wing it.

For the most part I agree with this, and in particular, encounters are fairly easy to balance. A "severe" encounter is going to feel pretty drat scary for your party, but they will survive unless they get particularly unlucky or do something particularly dumb.

However, there are occasionally rules that feel like they are "missing" to me. For example, I am currently the GM for an Abomination Vaults game, and one of my players loves to listen at the doors for whatever is in the next room. This feels like this should be such a common activity that there should be explicit rules for it, but it's kind of nuanced to follow by rules as written and give meaningful direction to the player. The players are exploring, so it feels like this should be an exploration activity. The two best options seem to be the Scout activity, which just gives a flat +1 to initiative (and honestly feels kind of awkward to explain in indoor settings), or the Search activity, which seems more focused on finding objects than creatures. All of this is even more complicated if a player says something like "I sneak over to the door and listen" -- then it feels like maybe they should be using the Avoid Notice activity as well.

I think how I will rule this next time is to ignore the exploration rules for this, and give them a Perception check (against the enemy's stealth DC if they are hiding, otherwise against some flat number that seems appropriate). If they detect something in the other room, immediately have them roll initiative, and have the enemy potentially react to the player's presence. The detected enemies would all be hidden to the player, meaning the players know what space the enemies are in ahead of time. If someone was actively scouting before the door check (instead of doing the other exploration activities), give everyone a +1 to the initiative roll. That said, I am very open to suggestions here.

Amp
Sep 10, 2010

:11tea::bubblewoop::agesilaus::megaman::yoshi::squawk::supaburn::iit::spooky::axe::honked::shroom::smugdog::sg::pkmnwhy::parrot::screamy::tubular::corsair::sanix::yeeclaw::hayter::flip::redflag:
nice OP & big knowledge post Toshimo :hai:

Proven
Aug 8, 2007

Lurker

VikingofRock posted:

However, there are occasionally rules that feel like they are "missing" to me. For example, I am currently the GM for an Abomination Vaults game, and one of my players loves to listen at the doors for whatever is in the next room. This feels like this should be such a common activity that there should be explicit rules for it, but it's kind of nuanced to follow by rules as written and give meaningful direction to the player. The players are exploring, so it feels like this should be an exploration activity. The two best options seem to be the Scout activity, which just gives a flat +1 to initiative (and honestly feels kind of awkward to explain in indoor settings), or the Search activity, which seems more focused on finding objects than creatures. All of this is even more complicated if a player says something like "I sneak over to the door and listen" -- then it feels like maybe they should be using the Avoid Notice activity as well.

I think how I will rule this next time is to ignore the exploration rules for this, and give them a Perception check (against the enemy's stealth DC if they are hiding, otherwise against some flat number that seems appropriate). If they detect something in the other room, immediately have them roll initiative, and have the enemy potentially react to the player's presence. The detected enemies would all be hidden to the player, meaning the players know what space the enemies are in ahead of time. If someone was actively scouting before the door check (instead of doing the other exploration activities), give everyone a +1 to the initiative roll. That said, I am very open to suggestions here.

Overall, I think your idea for the future ruling is great. Exploration Mode is often about matching the activity as best you can, but being willing to improvise for anything not foreseen. If enemy creatures were on the other side, I would also do a Perception check to be able to hear through the door (assuming no keyhole and a possible penalty for door material/thickness) and if they succeeded I’d also use it for their initiative but with +1 for them and everyone else for Scout, borrowing somewhat from the Avoid Notice rules. With the door closed the party is automatically hidden, if not completely undetected. If unsuccessful, I’d keep both sides undetected for each other and wouldn’t roll initiative until something more avert happened

If they wanted to open the door to peek instead of listening, then I’d give them the stealth roll for Avoid Notice, but not the Scout bonus. Initiative would be called for everyone else while the Avoid Notice player would use that Steath roll for initiative. If the player successfully avoided notice against the enemy Perception DCs then the reward there would be that all of the party is in initiative, undetected, and aware while the enemies are in initiative, detected, and still minding their own business.

KPC_Mammon
Jan 23, 2004

Ready for the fashy circle jerk

VikingofRock posted:

However, there are occasionally rules that feel like they are "missing" to me. For example, I am currently the GM for an Abomination Vaults game, and one of my players loves to listen at the doors for whatever is in the next room.

Has your player purchased one of these yet?

super sweet best pal
Nov 18, 2009

Pathfinder bundle just dropped

KPC_Mammon
Jan 23, 2004

Ready for the fashy circle jerk

Are these watermarked pdfs that are compatible with the Foundry pdf module? I was thinking of running strength of thousands sometime and this interests me greatly.

edit: They are, drat. Thank you for the link this is wonderful.

KPC_Mammon fucked around with this message at 19:25 on Aug 18, 2022

CottonWolf
Jul 20, 2012

Good ideas generator


This is ludicrous value for anyone considering getting into 2e.

Jarvisi
Apr 17, 2001

Green is still best.

KPC_Mammon posted:

Are these watermarked pdfs that are compatible with the Foundry pdf module? I was thinking of running strength of thousands sometime and this interests me greatly.

edit: They are, drat. Thank you for the link this is wonderful.

The link says it's through paizo so you can use it with foundry freely. This is pretty insane value!

Lurks With Wolves
Jan 14, 2013

At least I don't dance with them, right?

Jarvisi posted:

Strength of Thousands
The players are new initiates to Pathfinders biggest wizard school. All classes get a free level in either mage or druid, depending on which stat is higher. It's also apparently one of the more roleplaying heavy pre-mades. The African inspired theme is also surprisingly popular for anyone looking for something different!

One quick clarification here: Strength of Thousands actually gives you a free archetype, which you can only use to multiclass into Druid or Wizard. I mention this only because the Free Archetype alternate rule is pretty much an objective improvement over the base game because it gives characters a much broader set of abilities without really making them meaningfully stronger. (If you combine Fighter and Barbarian your raw numbers get a bit too big for the system, but otherwise it's perfectly fine.) Whether you let people pick freely or you take Strength of Thousands' approach and give your players a limited list of thematic options, you really have nothing to lose from using these rules.

blastron
Dec 11, 2007

Don't doodle on it!


The Free Archetype rule is just straight-up great. Once I used it in one game I've used it in every game since. It adds so much versatility and flavor to a character without unbalancing anything.

Jarvisi
Apr 17, 2001

Green is still best.

blastron posted:

The Free Archetype rule is just straight-up great. Once I used it in one game I've used it in every game since. It adds so much versatility and flavor to a character without unbalancing anything.

I attempted to implement it but all my players are cheap and refuse to pay for path builder.

Megazver
Jan 13, 2006

Jarvisi posted:

I attempted to implement it but all my players are cheap and refuse to pay for path builder.

You don't need Pathbuilder to use it, though? Surely you can keep track of "free Archetype feat at lvl2 and every even level after that" without it in whatever you use to actually run the game? (Foundry! Roll20! Google Docs! Actual paper sheets!)

Gwaihir
Dec 8, 2009
Hair Elf
Foundry does it all for you, as soon as you level up it'll add the appropriate spots on your feats tab to drop in whatever you need.

bewilderment
Nov 22, 2007
man what



I am a newbie to Pathfinder 2e but it seems to me that (if you're doing stuff online) just using the Foundry module is easier anyway and lets you do Free Archetype for free.

I gave the Foundry module a shot today and was serious impressed by how much is included. They put in for free basically all the the AP-specific monster stats, for example.

The Slack Lagoon
Jun 17, 2008



bewilderment posted:

I am a newbie to Pathfinder 2e but it seems to me that (if you're doing stuff online) just using the Foundry module is easier anyway and lets you do Free Archetype for free.

I gave the Foundry module a shot today and was serious impressed by how much is included. They put in for free basically all the the AP-specific monster stats, for example.

One thing is the bestiary doesn't have token art but if you buy one of the partnered AP modules for Foundry that will have token art

Amp
Sep 10, 2010

:11tea::bubblewoop::agesilaus::megaman::yoshi::squawk::supaburn::iit::spooky::axe::honked::shroom::smugdog::sg::pkmnwhy::parrot::screamy::tubular::corsair::sanix::yeeclaw::hayter::flip::redflag:

The Slack Lagoon posted:

One thing is the bestiary doesn't have token art but if you buy one of the partnered AP modules for Foundry that will have token art

I believe the foundry folks are looking to have officially supported art at some point too. I want to say they said it on their discord server or on a stream at some point.

Jarvisi
Apr 17, 2001

Green is still best.

Gwaihir posted:

Foundry does it all for you, as soon as you level up it'll add the appropriate spots on your feats tab to drop in whatever you need.

Oh oops. I was just dragging all the free archetype stuff to bonus feats.

Syrinxx
Mar 28, 2002

Death is whimsical today

ShallNoiseUpon posted:

I believe the foundry folks are looking to have officially supported art at some point too. I want to say they said it on their discord server or on a stream at some point.

Yeah they have announced it for "later this year" - it will include Bestiary 1,2,3 and blanks to make your own. And they have a nice 3d look

Amp
Sep 10, 2010

:11tea::bubblewoop::agesilaus::megaman::yoshi::squawk::supaburn::iit::spooky::axe::honked::shroom::smugdog::sg::pkmnwhy::parrot::screamy::tubular::corsair::sanix::yeeclaw::hayter::flip::redflag:
The thing where the art goes over the token border is so sick, they did it for all of the Iconics in Foundry and it looks really great

Yusin
Mar 4, 2021

ShallNoiseUpon posted:

The thing where the art goes over the token border is so sick, they did it for all of the Iconics in Foundry and it looks really great

Agreed I like it.

The Slack Lagoon
Jun 17, 2008



Honestly one of the things that draws me to swapping over the 5e game I'm running to pf2e is how accessible Pazio makes the system and integration into Foundry and support for that. I ran some paid content from roll20 for 5e but the maps were super basic.

Hunter Noventa
Apr 21, 2010

Toshimo posted:

Here's the "PF2 intro for 5e players" I posted last thread:

Has anyone got something like this for PF1 players? I did try building a character for PF2 and I couldn't get it to do what I wanted.

CottonWolf
Jul 20, 2012

Good ideas generator

That Solar token owns.

Toshimo
Aug 23, 2012

He's outta line...

But he's right!

Hunter Noventa posted:

Has anyone got something like this for PF1 players? I did try building a character for PF2 and I couldn't get it to do what I wanted.

I never played PF2, but if you explain what you're looking to build (less in a "Here's my PF1 build" and more a "Here's the role and style of what I want"), I'd be glad to take a look.

Hunter Noventa
Apr 21, 2010

Toshimo posted:

I never played PF2, but if you explain what you're looking to build (less in a "Here's my PF1 build" and more a "Here's the role and style of what I want"), I'd be glad to take a look.

Ah not a huge deal. I was trying to make a weapon-using monk and it seemed to really discourage that.

I'm really more interested int he difference in gameplay overall. My current group is doing Starfinder which is definitely halfway between the two.

KPC_Mammon
Jan 23, 2004

Ready for the fashy circle jerk

Hunter Noventa posted:

Ah not a huge deal. I was trying to make a weapon-using monk and it seemed to really discourage that.

I'm really more interested int he difference in gameplay overall. My current group is doing Starfinder which is definitely halfway between the two.

Weapon using monks don't have to waste actions going into stances and have access to a wide range of interesting keywords on their attacks. I think they'd be a lot of fun to play in 2e. You aren't competing with constantly escalating unarmed damage dice like in 1st edition, as an added bonus.

Roadie
Jun 30, 2013

Hunter Noventa posted:

Ah not a huge deal. I was trying to make a weapon-using monk and it seemed to really discourage that.

Look at the Monastic Weaponry feat. It doesn't let you use a weapon with stance-provided unarmed attacks, but there are some stances specifically designed around weapon use, like Peafowl Stance or Whirling Blade Stance.

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Chevy Slyme
May 2, 2004

We're Gonna Run.

We're Gonna Crawl.

Kick Down Every Wall.

Hunter Noventa posted:

Ah not a huge deal. I was trying to make a weapon-using monk and it seemed to really discourage that.

I'm really more interested int he difference in gameplay overall. My current group is doing Starfinder which is definitely halfway between the two.

Look into the Monastic Weaponry feat and Peafowl Stance at low levels. At high levels, Whirling Blade Stance absolutely rules.

Chevy Slyme fucked around with this message at 22:12 on Aug 19, 2022

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