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Facebook Aunt
Oct 4, 2008

wiggle wiggle




Lurks With Wolves posted:

As I understand it, the changes in general shipping and cardstock production and so on during the pandemic mean pawn collections are no longer worth it to produce. That's why they stopped making pawn collections for new adventure paths, and it's why there are now a finite amount of Abomination Vault pawn collections that are being slowly bought out from online stores.

It's not that hard to MacGyver/pinterest mom them up yourself though.

You can start with the PDF pawn collections and just print them off. Or make your own custom ones once your know the sizes.

I use a cheap paper cutter to make fast straight cuts. I use https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B07R12TV9Z?th=1 but boy do I miss the heavy one we had in school.

A corner rounder punch cutter thing. This not only makes them look nice, but they tend to fray at the corners if you reuse them a few times, so the corner cutter makes them more durable. https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B0076FJ7SS

Unfortunately, both those tools only work for a moderate thickness of paper. I find 2 pages of printed paper + 2 pages of card stock are as thick as I can reliably cut. Which is only about half the thickness of a cardboard pawn. This guy uses chipboard which makes a better quality pawn but takes better tools: https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder_RPG/comments/2g0kvr/how_to_make_custom_pawns/

Use spray adhesive to glue the layers together. Craft glue or school glue takes a long time to dry and the paper can wrinkle. I use LePage but I've heard good things about 3M Super 77. It seems to help prevent peeling to glue the layers together and then leave the finished sheets under a stack of heavy books overnight to cure before cutting.

When it's all done the finished pawns are still only half the thickness, so sometimes the pawns can slip out of the bases. The best thing I've found so far is putting a staple in the bottom to make them a smidge thicker. A little funtac in the base can work too, but that makes everything sticky.


mine vs. professional


Sometimes I don't do all that and instead print out an 8x11 picture of the monster to set on the table and just use a random token on the battle map. Gives the players an even better look at the monster for less effort.

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Evilgm
Dec 31, 2014

Facebook Aunt posted:


It's so silly. "Okay this is a really complex lock so it's going to 4 successes on a DC 30 thievery check. Or I guess the fighter can make a single DC 30 athletics check instead."


Kicking down a door is both a lot louder and a lot harder to hide or undo than picking a lock.

marshmallow creep
Dec 10, 2008

I've been sitting here for 5 mins trying to think of a joke to make but I just realised the animators of Mass Effect already did it for me

Facebook Aunt posted:

It's not that hard to MacGyver/pinterest mom them up yourself though.

You can start with the PDF pawn collections and just print them off. Or make your own custom ones once your know the sizes.

I use a cheap paper cutter to make fast straight cuts. I use https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B07R12TV9Z?th=1 but boy do I miss the heavy one we had in school.

A corner rounder punch cutter thing. This not only makes them look nice, but they tend to fray at the corners if you reuse them a few times, so the corner cutter makes them more durable. https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B0076FJ7SS

Unfortunately, both those tools only work for a moderate thickness of paper. I find 2 pages of printed paper + 2 pages of card stock are as thick as I can reliably cut. Which is only about half the thickness of a cardboard pawn. This guy uses chipboard which makes a better quality pawn but takes better tools: https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder_RPG/comments/2g0kvr/how_to_make_custom_pawns/

Use spray adhesive to glue the layers together. Craft glue or school glue takes a long time to dry and the paper can wrinkle. I use LePage but I've heard good things about 3M Super 77. It seems to help prevent peeling to glue the layers together and then leave the finished sheets under a stack of heavy books overnight to cure before cutting.

When it's all done the finished pawns are still only half the thickness, so sometimes the pawns can slip out of the bases. The best thing I've found so far is putting a staple in the bottom to make them a smidge thicker. A little funtac in the base can work too, but that makes everything sticky.


mine vs. professional


Sometimes I don't do all that and instead print out an 8x11 picture of the monster to set on the table and just use a random token on the battle map. Gives the players an even better look at the monster for less effort.

Can't bookmark a post, so I'm quoting instead.

Taciturn Tactician
Jan 27, 2011

The secret to good health is a balanced diet and unstable healing radiation
Lipstick Apathy

marshmallow creep posted:

Can't bookmark a post, so I'm quoting instead.

You can, actually. If you hit the hash button in the bottom left of the post by the post date it changes your current url to a post anchor that will jump to that post immediately when the page loads.

Facebook Aunt
Oct 4, 2008

wiggle wiggle




Taciturn Tactician posted:

You can, actually. If you hit the hash button in the bottom left of the post by the post date it changes your current url to a post anchor that will jump to that post immediately when the page loads.

Woah.

Lemniscate Blue
Apr 21, 2006

Here we go again.
Requesting advice, since I'm pretty new to PF2e.

We're a bit into Sky King's Tomb and my Thaumaturgist got pasted by the mannequin-thing that had the hilt-gem with the dead gnome's soul bound in it. Bastard hit like a truck. I'm thinking it's not least due to the fact that I was the only melee character and wasn't set up to be any kind of meatshield. Fun to play though.

So now I'm thinking of building a tankier character and I wanted to get some advice. I've done some reading and "best tank" seems to be Champion with Fighter close behind with the right setup, but I'm also considering the shield-focused Magus build with a dedication that hardens me up a little, like Sentinel (or Champion archetype).

I'm not that enthused about Champion at the moment but I'm certain I'd be able to come up with a character I'd enjoy RPing, and years ago in our 4e game I played a Fighter for the full campaign and I'd prefer something different, but again I'm pretty sure I could have a good time with it. Something about that Magus is feeling really interesting to me though.

Other party members at the moment: crossbow Ranger, lore Oracle, and water/earth Kineticist. The second two are our healing types but neither is really firmly dedicated to it (which also contributed to my demise).

Would the Magus (Sparkling Targe, Orc, Sentinel) be tough enough to be the primary recipient of melee beatings going forward, or should I go with a Champion or Fighter for maximum tankage?

I'm not looking for super-optimization, just "good enough". I don't want to keep getting squashed.

Lemniscate Blue fucked around with this message at 08:55 on Mar 18, 2024

Facebook Aunt
Oct 4, 2008

wiggle wiggle




Sorry, I don't know anything about magus.

Champion is in a weird place right now in the remaster with some of their stuff as written invalid due to the removal of alignment, with only errata to paper over the cracks. Their tankiness is a bit strained IMO since Shield Block has to compete with Champion's Reaction every turn, so you get less out of your shield. They do have good armor progression though.

Pathfinder Fighters are awesome. If you are going all in on defence, check out the Everstand Stance feat. It makes your shield better at being a shield, but you spend your whole life bonking people with your shield. Still, you're bonking people with your shield super effectively since you're a fighter.

I played a rogue for a while and it was weirdly tankier than expected. I didn't even put anything into Con, so my hit dice weren't there. But somehow I had the highest AC. By level 3 Deny Advantage means mooks can't flank you, which is nice in melee. Nimble dodge helps too.

The lesson of the weirdly tanky rogue is that dex characters can be tanky as hell. A level 1 guy with 4 dex and leather armor (or 3 dex and studded leather) has AC 18. His buddy in heavy armor is only AC 19, and he loses 5 feet of movement to get there (which costs him positioning opportunities). You don't need heavy armor to be tanky as hell. Which means almost any class can be pretty tanky and also good at whatever the class is known for.



I don't know what build your your kineticist is rocking, but kineteicists can be quite tanky. +4 con, +3 dex and studded leather armor is a very good combo. Impulses work just as well in melee as at range. More people in melee range spreads out the damage in ways that helps a water kineticicst heal (because their healing impulse can only work on each target once every 10 minutes) so if they would get into melee range it would make them better healers. Giving you a flanking buddy would also help enemies go down faster. 1 tank is never going to be as effective as 2 tanks. May be worth a strategy chat.

Scoss
Aug 17, 2015
I haven't played a Magus but one of my players is a Magus (laughing shadow) and has considered switching to the Targe build to be a little tougher, so we looked at the options together a bit.

My conclusion was that the Targe Magus is okay but fundamentally still limited by the Magus being focused around getting off spell strikes and being a medium-durability character. You have a comparable durability to a Druid without further feat investment, and even with taking Toughness and picking up heavy armor proficiency you'll be slightly beind the sturdier melees. You may find that the very demanding action economy of Magus will make it a bit harder find room to do things like athletic maneuvers and other kinds of bullying that a tank might want to do.

I don't think it's bad at all, just that spellstrike is such a prominent feature that the class is going to want to lean towards a damage role no matter how you build it.

Have a look at the Monk as well if you haven't considered one, they can get pretty durable.

Chevy Slyme
May 2, 2004

We're Gonna Run.

We're Gonna Crawl.

Kick Down Every Wall.

Lemniscate Blue posted:

Requesting advice, since I'm pretty new to PF2e.

We're a bit into Sky King's Tomb and my Thaumaturgist got pasted by the mannequin-thing that had the hilt-gem with the dead gnome's soul bound in it. Bastard hit like a truck. I'm thinking it's not least due to the fact that I was the only melee character and wasn't set up to be any kind of meatshield. Fun to play though.

So now I'm thinking of building a tankier character and I wanted to get some advice. I've done some reading and "best tank" seems to be Champion with Fighter close behind with the right setup, but I'm also considering the shield-focused Magus build with a dedication that hardens me up a little, like Sentinel (or Champion archetype).

I'm not that enthused about Champion at the moment but I'm certain I'd be able to come up with a character I'd enjoy RPing, and years ago in our 4e game I played a Fighter for the full campaign and I'd prefer something different, but again I'm pretty sure I could have a good time with it. Something about that Magus is feeling really interesting to me though.

Other party members at the moment: crossbow Ranger, lore Oracle, and water/earth Kineticist. The second two are our healing types but neither is really firmly dedicated to it (which also contributed to my demise).

Would the Magus (Sparkling Targe, Orc, Sentinel) be tough enough to be the primary recipient of melee beatings going forward, or should I go with a Champion or Fighter for maximum tankage?

I'm not looking for super-optimization, just "good enough". I don't want to keep getting squashed.


A mountain stance monk could be a really good fit here.

the_steve
Nov 9, 2005

We're always hiring!

I played a Mountain Stance monk in PFS, and yeah, I'm not invincible by any stretch of the imagination, but I did love it, and I was fairly hard to hit.
Only reason I swapped off of it is because Kineticist came out and I wanted to play it.

Andrast
Apr 21, 2010


Facebook Aunt posted:

The lesson of the weirdly tanky rogue is that dex characters can be tanky as hell. A level 1 guy with 4 dex and leather armor (or 3 dex and studded leather) has AC 18. His buddy in heavy armor is only AC 19, and he loses 5 feet of movement to get there (which costs him positioning opportunities). You don't need heavy armor to be tanky as hell. Which means almost any class can be pretty tanky and also good at whatever the class is known for.

I would not consider 18 AC 'tanky as hell' when it's the baseline for most characters that aren't unarmored casters

sugar free jazz
Mar 5, 2008

rogues aren’t tanky lol

just play a champion. if you want to play a beefy tanky frontliner and aren’t that familiar with the system play the class that’s designed to do that role. champions are borderline broken to the same degree as fighters and are just overall really well designed

gurragadon
Jul 28, 2006

Our barbarian is a pretty good tank too. He gets d12 every level up, temporary hit points when he rages, and with his choice of barbarian he can become large now when he is raging. They only wear medium armor, but the hit points make up for it pretty well.

Edit: He's an orc with orc ferocity, defy death and toughness too. It's a pain to take him down and I've only been able to get him with critical hits usually.

gurragadon fucked around with this message at 15:07 on Mar 18, 2024

Clerical Terrors
Apr 24, 2016

I'm so tired, I'm so very tired
I'm playing a Paladin Champion in SKT right now with the rest of the team being a Druid, Flurry Bow Ranger, and Fire Kineticist. I feel like Champion works pretty well but mostly when they're not holding the line alone, since they can't target themselves with reactions. When I'm solo-tanking I end up kinda wishing I had rolled fighter instead.

Infinity Gaia
Feb 27, 2011

a storm is coming...

gurragadon posted:

Our barbarian is a pretty good tank too. He gets d12 every level up, temporary hit points when he rages, and with his choice of barbarian he can become large now when he is raging. They only wear medium armor, but the hit points make up for it pretty well.

Edit: He's an orc with orc ferocity, defy death and toughness too. It's a pain to take him down and I've only been able to get him with critical hits usually.

Orc Barbarians are great meatshields but heavily rely on getting healing support due to their overall low AC for a frontliner.

gurragadon
Jul 28, 2006

Infinity Gaia posted:

Orc Barbarians are great meatshields but heavily rely on getting healing support due to their overall low AC for a frontliner.

Yeah, this is pretty important. I can triple crit him (crit card) but it won't end him completely because healers are pretty useful in this game.

KPC_Mammon
Jan 23, 2004

Ready for the fashy circle jerk

gurragadon posted:

Our barbarian is a pretty good tank too. He gets d12 every level up, temporary hit points when he rages, and with his choice of barbarian he can become large now when he is raging. They only wear medium armor, but the hit points make up for it pretty well.

Edit: He's an orc with orc ferocity, defy death and toughness too. It's a pain to take him down and I've only been able to get him with critical hits usually.

Giant barbarians are the least tanky class by a mile and this game doesn't use hit dice. Are you posting about a different game? wtf

edit: Having a few more hit points doesn't in any way make up for being critically hit constantly.

atelier morgan
Mar 11, 2003

super-scientific, ultra-gay

Lipstick Apathy
against most of the nastier enemies a champion will be taking about 1/4th the crits as your standard dex capped light/medium armor character. the superior proficiency bonus is huge!

shield champion is basically the only character who can stand in a striker-y boss' face and expect to be standing next round

atelier morgan fucked around with this message at 16:14 on Mar 18, 2024

sugar free jazz
Mar 5, 2008

KPC_Mammon posted:

Giant barbarians are the least tanky class by a mile and this game doesn't use hit dice. Are you posting about a different game? wtf

edit: Having a few more hit points doesn't in any way make up for being critically hit constantly.



yeah, barbarians hit really really hard and get hit really really hard. thinking about a barbarian as tanky is a mistake.

gurragadon
Jul 28, 2006

KPC_Mammon posted:

Giant barbarians are the least tanky class by a mile and this game doesn't use hit dice. Are you posting about a different game? wtf

edit: Having a few more hit points doesn't in any way make up for being critically hit constantly.

12 hit points per level is what I meant but just wrote d12 out of habit. Clearly, I'm talking about PF2e because I mentioned a bunch of feats. I think he has enough health to make up for the crits and being a general pain to knock unconscious. This is using the crit cards that make them even worse. I have to back-to-back crit to take him down with everything so far, but he usually gets a heal in between.

I also let them heal up to max between basically every fight though because they all have the pearly white spindle aeon stone and take the time to heal up. I don't know if that is expected in normal play though.

Him becoming large allows him to lock down areas a lot better, but we are playing Abomination Vaults where there are more tight spaces.

Edit: Was just bringing up barbarian because Lemniscate Blue didn't seem too enthusiastic about champion.

vvvv Thats how I run it.

gurragadon fucked around with this message at 16:40 on Mar 18, 2024

sugar free jazz
Mar 5, 2008

gurragadon posted:

12 hit points per level is what I meant but just wrote d12 out of habit. Clearly, I'm talking about PF2e because I mentioned a bunch of feats. I think he has enough health to make up for the crits and being a general pain to knock unconscious. This is using the crit cards that make them even worse. I have to back-to-back crit to take him down with everything so far, but he usually gets a heal in between.

I also let them heal up to max between basically every fight though because they all have the pearly white spindle aeon stone and take the time to heal up. I don't know if that is expected in normal play though.

Him becoming large allows him to lock down areas a lot better, but we are playing Abomination Vaults where there are more tight spaces.

Edit: Was just bringing up barbarian because Lemniscate Blue didn't seem too enthusiastic about champion.

the game is built for the party to be at full hp when starting a fight, it is a design decision of PF2

Mechayahiko
May 27, 2011

Doctor Rope
Only 1 front line character is going to be a bad time. Maybe a fighter with beast master archetype, if you are playing with Free Archetype. Either way you are going to feel really action constrained since you won't have enough to actually tank for everyone.

marshmallow creep
Dec 10, 2008

I've been sitting here for 5 mins trying to think of a joke to make but I just realised the animators of Mass Effect already did it for me

atelier morgan posted:

against most of the nastier enemies a champion will be taking about 1/4th the crits as your standard dex capped light/medium armor character. the superior proficiency bonus is huge!

shield champion is basically the only character who can stand in a striker-y boss' face and expect to be standing next round

I had a fight where a grave knight crit the shield champion who used shield block and survived damage that would have killed every other character in the party twice.

Dick Burglar
Mar 6, 2006
Goons, I want to play a wild shape ("untamed form" is a terrible name and I refuse to use it) druid, and focus the build on wild shape. I know, I know, druids are full casters and you shouldn't neglect the caster aspect. I agree, I just also think that druids don't really need any feat investment to be solid casters. The core stands pretty well on its own, which means you can spend your feats on other stuff. I was hoping y'all could steer me in the right direction about some ideas I have.

When considering about free archetype rules, it seems like fighter is a no-brainer for reactive strike. After that, I'm stuck between monk and wrestler. Monk has flurry of blows (and also perfection's path to help shore up defenses), but wrestler has hilarious gimmicks, and also higher-level wild shapes being large or huge means that whirling throw is really good. I feel like the two are more-or-less mutually exclusive because flurry of blows and combat grab are kind of difficult to use together. I suppose you could alternate them per round, since combat grab lasts until the end of your next turn, but I'm not sure that's worth it*. I should also note that I've yet to actually play Pathfinder so I don't know how practical my ideas are in actual play. I'm inclined to go with monk between the two, since flurry of blows is "simpler" and requires less fuss/fewer moving pieces, plus you can also bump up a defense.

Rogue archetype also seems nice for nimble dodge, but I'm not sure how useful that would be, since it'd be competing with reactive strike for your reaction. Rogue archetype, like monk, can help bump up a defense, which also seems like a nice-to-have thing.

Also, it seems like wild shape druids are discouraged from pumping athletics, both because you've got limited skill increases, but also because the ferocious form feat helps bump the wild shape forms' athletics bonus by 1. Basically, I'm looking for confirmation that it's OK to neglect athletics. Aerial form gives a similar bonus for acrobatics, but very few forms actually give an acrobatics score, so I think it's worth investing in acrobatics.

Am I completely off the mark here?

* I can see a specific gimmick of "combat grab on round 1, flurry of blows then whirling throw on round 2, repeat" but I'm leery of building for gimmicks like that. Those work in D&D, but Pathfinder combat seems a lot less "do the same thing over and over again," barring edge cases like magus.

Dick Burglar fucked around with this message at 17:29 on Mar 18, 2024

Silver2195
Apr 4, 2012
I remember seeing a build called the Wild Fighter that was a Fighter with the Druid archetype (instead of a Druid with the Fighter archetype) built around Wild Shape. It was under the pre-Remaster rules, though, and I think relied on somewhat controversial rules interpretations regarding things like the interaction between Wild Shape and Handwraps of Mighty Blows, plus the guide containing the build suggested that it might be considered overpowered.

Dick Burglar
Mar 6, 2006
Actually, while I'm asking wild shape questions: I love the thematic idea of form control and improved form control, but practically-speaking the feats seem to be of incredibly dubious value. The decrease in level means the forms are completely worthless in combat. The only practical uses I can think of are basically scouting/staying "hidden" as a small, innocuous animal for a prolonged period of time. And for that incredibly niche situation, you're wasting two feats to do it. I want to take them, because I love the theme, but I seriously question whether they're worth it.

Silver2195 posted:

I remember seeing a build called the Wild Fighter that was a Fighter with the Druid archetype (instead of a Druid with the Fighter archetype) built around Wild Shape. It was under the pre-Remaster rules, though, and I think relied on somewhat controversial rules interpretations regarding things like the interaction between Wild Shape and Handwraps of Mighty Blows, plus the guide containing the build suggested that it might be considered overpowered.

My understanding is that using druid archetype is kind of trash, because you'll never get the higher-level wild shape forms, and even the forms you get will likely be relatively under-leveled. Edit: Think I found the post you're talking about. I'm gonna be heading to work fairly soon, but I'll look over it later.

Dick Burglar fucked around with this message at 17:47 on Mar 18, 2024

atelier morgan
Mar 11, 2003

super-scientific, ultra-gay

Lipstick Apathy
imo the question to ask yourself is what you want to do with your actions in combat

if you want most of your combat actions to be casting spells, with a few being spent usefully on strides and strikes after you've cast a couple important spells then wild shape druid is the way to go

if you want most of your combat actions to be strides, strikes, athletics actions and wrestler moves then play an animal barbarian (since they transform when they rage) that will actually let you spend your actions doing that stuff you're excited to do

atelier morgan fucked around with this message at 17:49 on Mar 18, 2024

Dick Burglar
Mar 6, 2006
Animal barbarians (and beastkin, and any other animal-form-kinda-thing) are significantly different from wild shape though. I like the idea of multiple animal forms, but pretty much all the other "you're part animal" things are specifically tailored to one specific animal form, and that's boring. I want to be able to turn into a bear and a bird and a dinosaur and eventually a kaiju. Nothing else scratches that shifter-esque itch besides wild shape, unfortunately.

Also, if I'm gonna play a barbarian, it's gonna be a dragon barbarian. No other barbarian even comes close to being as cool (or mechanically potent) as dragon barbarians.

Dick Burglar fucked around with this message at 17:58 on Mar 18, 2024

bagrada
Aug 4, 2007

The Demogorgon is tired of your silly human bickering!

sugar free jazz posted:

the game is built for the party to be at full hp when starting a fight, it is a design decision of PF2

This comes up a lot, and we've talked to both of our GMs about it, but it doesn't seem easy or even reasonable to do that, at least during the first few levels. Treat Wounds takes 10 minutes with an hour (50 minute) lockout. Healing spells are fairly limited especially if you save them for emergencies or aren't a cleric and want to use other level 1 spells like Bless or Magic Weapon. Stuff like Lay Hands and thaumaturge chalice can heal every 10 minutes but are generally smaller numbers than the others. Then there's all the healing potions you can afford to chug. Are we missing anything?

Our first GM HATED the treat wounds spam but we got our asses kicked in almost every combat and he ended up switching the campaign to 5e after we turned around and went right back to camp to recover after a random encounter in Gatewalkers. Our second GM running Abom Vaults agreed you should be healed up for every fight and was a player first hand in that GW campaign, but he too got frustrated that it took us 3 game hours of failing treat wounds rolls to get ourselves situated after a tough miniboss fight we only survived thanks to some crits while he was trying to get us to rush straight to the graveyard for an emergency. He ended up letting us heal up but said all the friendly npcs were dead when we got there. It makes us wonder if we're missing something.

KPC_Mammon
Jan 23, 2004

Ready for the fashy circle jerk

bagrada posted:

while he was trying to get us to rush straight to the graveyard for an emergency. He ended up letting us heal up but said all the friendly npcs were dead when we got there. It makes us wonder if we're missing something.

The ability to read an adventure path? It has specific info on what happens if you take a while to get there and it isn't everyone dying.

It is also a long trip back to the graveyard, too far for most parties to hustle. Some extra time recuperating isn't that big of a deal.

KPC_Mammon fucked around with this message at 18:28 on Mar 18, 2024

atelier morgan
Mar 11, 2003

super-scientific, ultra-gay

Lipstick Apathy

bagrada posted:

It makes us wonder if we're missing something.

at level 1-2 you're not really, treat wounds can just gently caress up sometimes

once you're level 3 somebody can hit DC 15 with assurance

once you've got Continual Recovery and Ward Medic on your healer you're patched up from even catastrophic fights in 20 minutes at worst

Mister Olympus
Oct 31, 2011

Buzzard, Who Steals From Dead Bodies
While I'm inclined to agree that druid is perfectly fine without any feats to support its spellcasting, it's also worth nothing that as you get into higher levels, the value proposition on wild shape goes up and down pretty weirdly. For instance, when your highest spell level is 3 then spending a focus point to get a few rounds of martial-level strikes is a very good use of resources. If your highest spell level is 6, it might be more action efficient to drop a 3rd level fear on a moderate encounter rather than spending the time wildshaping then staying there. On the other hand, at the same level, maybe the fight is better handled by turning on dragon form and dropping a breath weapon. The action cost to get into wildshape in the first place is pretty much your main restraint, and then the question of "is this encounter better solved with a spell slot?"

sugar free jazz
Mar 5, 2008

bagrada posted:

This comes up a lot, and we've talked to both of our GMs about it, but it doesn't seem easy or even reasonable to do that, at least during the first few levels. Treat Wounds takes 10 minutes with an hour (50 minute) lockout. Healing spells are fairly limited especially if you save them for emergencies or aren't a cleric and want to use other level 1 spells like Bless or Magic Weapon. Stuff like Lay Hands and thaumaturge chalice can heal every 10 minutes but are generally smaller numbers than the others. Then there's all the healing potions you can afford to chug. Are we missing anything?

Our first GM HATED the treat wounds spam but we got our asses kicked in almost every combat and he ended up switching the campaign to 5e after we turned around and went right back to camp to recover after a random encounter in Gatewalkers. Our second GM running Abom Vaults agreed you should be healed up for every fight and was a player first hand in that GW campaign, but he too got frustrated that it took us 3 game hours of failing treat wounds rolls to get ourselves situated after a tough miniboss fight we only survived thanks to some crits while he was trying to get us to rush straight to the graveyard for an emergency. He ended up letting us heal up but said all the friendly npcs were dead when we got there. It makes us wonder if we're missing something.


Continual Recovery and Ward Medic as soon as they open on a character who has a focus on Medicine, and a couple characters who are trained in and good at Medicine at early levels. You can also use focus spells like Lay on Hands and the Witch's fast healing spell. The Heal spell. Kineticists have a number of options. These are just random ones off the top of my head, there's a lot of options and it's very doable. As soon as Continual Recovery and Ward Medic are taken on a character who can easily hit and crit on medicine, it's very easy to recover after a fight.

If you spent 3 hours of in game time failing medicine rolls you were either very unlucky (tough!) or made your own bad luck by not having a party member who is good at medicine.

bagrada
Aug 4, 2007

The Demogorgon is tired of your silly human bickering!

atelier morgan posted:

at level 1-2 you're not really, treat wounds can just gently caress up sometimes

once you're level 3 somebody can hit DC 15 with assurance

once you've got Continual Recovery and Ward Medic on your healer you're patched up from even catastrophic fights in 20 minutes at worst

Continual recovery is definitely something we missed and I will grab that ASAP. We did have one person pick up Ward Medic at level 4 in Gatewalkers but that was just before we tabled the campaign.

The three hours game time was because I rolled 5 then 6 on the first two treat wounds checks.

Piell
Sep 3, 2006

Grey Worm's Ken doll-like groin throbbed with the anticipatory pleasure that only a slightly warm and moist piece of lemoncake could offer


Young Orc
Kineticist can be insanely good at out of combat healing, at level 1 a wood/water kineticist can give every character 1d8+1d4+1 every 10 minutes, increasing by 18d+1d4+5 every 2 levels. Also anyone can get access to the 1d8 or the 1d4+1 (that scales at 1d4+5) via two feats, its great

atelier morgan
Mar 11, 2003

super-scientific, ultra-gay

Lipstick Apathy

Piell posted:

Kineticist can be insanely good at out of combat healing, at level 1 a wood/water kineticist can give every character 1d8+1d4+1 every 10 minutes, increasing by 18d+1d4+5 every 2 levels. Also anyone can get access to the 1d8 or the 1d4+1 (that scales at 1d4+5) via two feats, its great

yeah you still need somebody able to drop treat wounds to clear wounded conditions but Fresh Produce lowers your needs to the absolute bare minimum 'somebody should be trained in medicine and take assurance eventually'

e: oh wait no i completely forgot that wounded heals on its own with rest if you're at full health you don't even need that. i don't think i've ever had a party with zero medicine for that rule to have come into play before

Chevy Slyme
May 2, 2004

We're Gonna Run.

We're Gonna Crawl.

Kick Down Every Wall.

Piell posted:

Kineticist can be insanely good at out of combat healing, at level 1 a wood/water kineticist can give every character 1d8+1d4+1 every 10 minutes, increasing by 18d+1d4+5 every 2 levels. Also anyone can get access to the 1d8 or the 1d4+1 (that scales at 1d4+5) via two feats, its great

It's competitive with treat wounds at level 1 (Arguably better, since you can throw out the heal on everyone without the need for Ward Medic), sure, but it quickly falls off compared to a real medic by level 6 or so for "get the party to full after a fight", while becoming more useful as an emergency once-per-combat oh-poo poo button.

See also, Lay on Hands.

Scoss
Aug 17, 2015

bagrada posted:

uff like Lay Hands and thaumaturge chalice can heal every 10 minutes but are generally smaller numbers than the others. Then there's all the healing potions you can afford to chug. Are we missing anything?

These 10 minute spammable focus point abilities are extremely good for out of combat healing and even a single player with one of these powers can do more for out of combat healing than 2-3 players with medicine proficiency.

Depending on your GM and the class it might not even require downtime. A bard for example can cast Healing Hymn which heals for 8 at level 1, or 16 at level 3, and a reasonable GM might allow you to refocus to keep spamming it by playing music as the party continues to move. For anything not running off focus points like Thaumaturge or Kineticist it's even more trivial to heal as you travel, no convincing necessary.

KPC_Mammon
Jan 23, 2004

Ready for the fashy circle jerk

Scoss posted:

These 10 minute spammable focus point abilities are extremely good for out of combat healing and even a single player with one of these powers can do more for out of combat healing than 2-3 players with medicine proficiency.

Depending on your GM and the class it might not even require downtime. A bard for example can cast Healing Hymn which heals for 8 at level 1, or 16 at level 3, and a reasonable GM might allow you to refocus to keep spamming it by playing music as the party continues to move. For anything not running off focus points like Thaumaturge or Kineticist it's even more trivial to heal as you travel, no convincing necessary.

Yeah, refocus mentions you can take other appropriate actions while refocusing. I allow divine casters to regain focus points while making checks favored by their deity, just as an example.

You've helped me realize that a champion of Arquerous in one of the campaigns I run should also be regaining focus points when using the defend exploration action. Thanks!

edit: Just talked to the party's ranger and we are adding Investigate, Track, and Cover Tracks while in wilderness environments to acceptable methods of regaining focus points for warden spells.

KPC_Mammon fucked around with this message at 20:46 on Mar 18, 2024

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Facebook Aunt
Oct 4, 2008

wiggle wiggle




atelier morgan posted:

against most of the nastier enemies a champion will be taking about 1/4th the crits as your standard dex capped light/medium armor character. the superior proficiency bonus is huge!

shield champion is basically the only character who can stand in a striker-y boss' face and expect to be standing next round

There's a champion in my game with a fortress shield. Every turn he raises and shield and takes cover, for a +4 to AC. But the gimmick only works if the GM is willing to play along and feed that fantasy every round because he's eating a massive 15 foot movement penalty to do it. Most enemies could literally run circles around him. Or run past him to the squishy back line. In a room with one exit he can wedge himself in the doorway as an immoveable object to protect the backline, which has worked a few times but he's got no defence against Tumble Through so again it kinda depends on the GM allowing it to work. He is very hard to kill, but relatively easy to ignore. One time we came quite close to everyone else dying to enemies he couldn't hurt but who couldn't hurt him either, and joked that he was going to have to walk very slowly back to town carrying everyone's corpses to the nearest temple.

He took the Steed ally to get back some mobility, but the gimmick still depends on enemies being dumb enough to keep trying to hit him rather than anyone else.

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