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mind the walrus
Sep 22, 2006

Megaman's Jockstrap posted:

It's true though. Dorkness Rising, and literally in the Wiki they say "they took 'artistic licensing' with feats and abilities and class features". Which of course means it was bullshit, but he remembered it and was like "D&D3.5 is a good system! It lets you be the smart fighter!" Pernicious propaganda imo. ;)
It looks like the whole thing is easily available on YT and yeah, I have no idea why they'd make a TTRPG movie that only TTRPG nerds could love and then take mechanical liberties. Like sure people would pick nits anyway but that's just inviting trouble.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDCVSkiXL0Q

Mirage posted:

Does this guy also understand that losing that extra +2 in his primary stat also reduces his ability to get critical hits in most of his class-based actions by 10%? Pathfinder's die-rolling rules make +1's and +2's a lot more important than they were in D&D.

I mean, I understand the spirit of eschewing min-maxing for role-playing purposes, but this feels more like shooting himself in the foot just to be contrary. If he has some fascinating master plan that makes what he's done worthwhile, we'd like to hear it.
Same. There's "I want to stress the systems to facilitate a narrative" and "I am ignoring these core mechanics needed to achieve basic objectives within the game space."

Megaman's Jockstrap posted:

That's not what he's doing. He wants to cast spells and those use his CHA. He literally made a Bard that's pretty bad at Bard'ing
When I started DMing D&D5e I had a player make a Bard that no points in STR and DEX. They had built a character who could only effectively do cantrips and minor control spells. We had both glossed over the intent of that class which in 5e is the jack of all trades.

TTRPG marketing really loves to stress the flexibility of choice, and minimize how players do actually have to funnel themselves into a role and commit, and it leads to scenarios like this. Lots of "I don't want to be vanilla Dad I want to be myself."

Glad to have started in on Pathfinder 2e though, because while it does take some more orientation, so far it feels much more supportive as a whole. Going to run a one-shot with prebuilt characters with players of varying experience (decades to first-timers) and seeing how they do with it.

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mind the walrus
Sep 22, 2006

I've got players who may be interested in the Extinction Curse Adventure Path. Has anyone run any of those? I'm curious to hear any thoughts on them. The primary appeal of being a circus troupe is great but I'm still deciding on which Path to eventually take some players down, and it's pretty hard to argue with Path of Thousands or Outlaws of Alkenstar.

mind the walrus
Sep 22, 2006

M. Night Skymall posted:

I haven't run it, but pretty much any time it comes up the first thing anyone says is that the circus rules aren't good, and the circus is kind of phased out very quickly, then you're just a party who used to be in the circus roaming around golarion saving the world. I hear it's not bad, just doesn't actually live up to the circus theme very well. I played books 1-5 of Strength of Thousands and thought it was great, a little "incrementalism, actually how you save the world" at times for my taste, but still good, and the mwangi expanse is a cool continent with a great lore book and you do get to sort of wander all over it. I wanted to run Alkenstar but the DM discussions on it are full of people talking about trying to fix it and not how great it is, which does not make me enthused. The idea is awesome though.

Yeah reading up on the books that was the vibe I was getting, for both Extinction Curse and Strength of Thousands. Will have to figure out a good way to browse and dig into Paths before purchasing, because I do want to buy them but after getting burnt by 5e campaign books just... sucking a butt, I'm no longer leaping without a good look.

mind the walrus
Sep 22, 2006

drat some hot ball-breakers here

mind the walrus
Sep 22, 2006

impossiboobs posted:

I'm about to hop on to a voice call with my Extinction Curse group for our final session. We've played from level 1 to 11, and we're at the point where the module isn't much fun anymore. The circus rules are really dumb and we ended up ignoring them after 2 circus events, which made things much better. Part one was actually lots of fun, and being circus folk allowed us to play sillier characters than usual (except for one player who was the "straight man" and ended up being the accountant for the circus). Part two started to get a bit complicated, with us dealing with city politics a bit more, but then part three seemed like it lacked direction. Part one and two were tied closely to the circus and our personal connections to other people/places. Our motivations made sense, especially since we were dealing with things that were impacting our circus. Part two starts to lose focus, and part three seems completely detached from where we started, as we're trying to run a circus and keep that going, but then our attention is constantly being drawn elsewhere, and it's like "why is this group of carnies* travelling around Golarion and influencing powerful people?". We end up not being able to spend much time dealing with the circus so we feel like we're being forced to prioritize saving the world when our characters were built to keep a circus going. That's what they really want to focus on.

All in all, we had a good run, but lost steam after part 2, so we're wrapping up the plot we're currently in and switching to Strength of Thousands.

Thank you so much for this insight. That was the impression I was getting. I'll look up the circus rules to see why they're finnicky, because yeah the core appeal of why anyone in my party would want to run it is circus-related. Maybe with modification.

I've been stuck for literally 2 years in the absolute slog that's become D&D5e's Rime of the Frostmaiden, which ended up being so much extra GM work on my part to tie everything together as a narrative that we agreed as a party to wring every penny of enjoyment out of the campaign, and then my party proved to be extra slow at moving-- they're one of those groups that have the heart but they get disoriented easily and overthink things like "I want to use the rope to climb up to the next floor" no matter how many times I explicitly and kindly tell them they can just do it. My hope is that Pathfinder 2e's rules will make everyone, myself and them, feel more mechanically supported so there's less lock-up about options they can take.

quote:

*I know it's because we're like selected by Arodin and have the blessing from the tower, but it's still weird!
Hah. Yeah that's.... that sounds like word of god saying "we couldn't figure out more to to with the circus, so you work for this guy now; this is what the campaign is about now"

mind the walrus
Sep 22, 2006

This makes sense. It's a system where the tiers of difference are significant. A player should focus on their character being effective even if they're not min/maxing, or working a deliberately flawed character concept.

Or in other words: Be an active participant at the outset and embrace the strengths the rigidity of the system gives.

mind the walrus
Sep 22, 2006

Megaman's Jockstrap posted:

Got a text last night and the 14 CHA Bard is now 18 CHA. "I always play intelligent characters" was the real reason btw. That's why all the blah-blah about character motivation didn't make any sense. This guy thinks he has to be a Big Brain in every setting. I'm a little disappointed in him because all his big "explore the system" crap was just cover for him playing a high INT bard (exactly what he plays in 5e) but whatever. At least he's not playing a garbage pile.
Glad he moved on. Some people really balk at the idea of being "funneled" into certain mechanics or boxes of any kind that they did not specifically choose, and really hate being told "your choice will not benefit the whole."

That's a big reason WotC's 5e strategy was able to court every casual person who wanted to make an superhero version of their MBTI persona to play for an evening or two.

Pathfinder 2e assumes you already have enough social firmament to be able to look at the whole and commit yourself to growing within a structure, and that you actually want to participate and not just show up, sip some wine, flirt with your crush, and occasionally roll a d20 when some nerd tells you to. That modality is totally valid and what 80% of all customers want to do, and Pathfinder 2e certainly allows that but it doesn't make people feel like they can.

gurragadon posted:

Well, I mean if 10 is "average" intelligence then 18 intelligence would be somebody with superior intelligence, right? To me the stats do represent your baseline potential in stuff. Your skills are how you spend your time, like if you spent your time studying books on a million topics you would take a bunch of lore skills. Or if you spend your time picking pockets and opening locks you would take thievery.
That's not wrong, but mechanically your ability scores indicate probability of greater or lesser success if your character commits towards certain actions in the actual story in-play. You can interpret that however you want for your character's concept, but mechanically that is the foundation.

In Pathfinder actual character investment that your character has made is determined by Feats and Skill Levels (Untrained, Trained, Expert, Legendary).

quote:

I'm not familiar with Conan besides knowing that the stories exist, but in that quote he doesn't seem cunning or clever, he seems uneducated.
He's a guy that compensates for a lack of interest in things with physical prowess, the charisma of that prowess, and a cunning that manifests when he is going after a specific goal that does interest him. He has a knack for surrounding himself with people who can compensate for the knowledge and skills he lacks, while he plays to his strengths and delegates.

mind the walrus fucked around with this message at 20:24 on Feb 19, 2023

mind the walrus
Sep 22, 2006

gurragadon posted:

So Conan is somebody who lacks a certain mental discipline to learn things unless they interest him? That sounds like a character with high strength, charisma, a decent dexterity and an ok wisdom who specialized in the skills of athletics, intimidation and thievery. I don't see how I could say he has a generally high intelligence based on this description. Just because you have a lot of knowledge in one area doesn't indicate overall intelligence.
"Overall intelligence" is a dipshit phrase and trying to please it is a fool's errand.

Megaman's Jockstrap posted:

Now rightly you're saying "well doesn't that overlap with skills a whole lot" and the answer is yes, they've basically created nothing more than another level to the skill system. That's why ability scores are stupid. They're stupid if they're your "genetic potential" because that can't be modelled by 6 variables and is a stupid fool's errand, and they're stupid when they're "what your character is doing" because yeah we have a skill system, but oh well. We're stuck with Big Daddy D&D's shadow all over everything.
:emptyquote:

mind the walrus
Sep 22, 2006

Megaman's Jockstrap posted:

I think this keep getting missed (and that's understandable) but he wants to cast spells a lot. As a Bard, his Charisma sets all the spell DCs and effects, not his INT. So, he was going to be a genuinely low end spellcaster who also could make an ok (16 DEX) shortbow attack. It was a bad character.

Yup a campaign designed with solutions for an INT Bard works, but if the Player or GM wants a caster Bard and that stat is low... I mean idk what that dude thought was going to happen

mind the walrus
Sep 22, 2006

Vanguard Warden posted:

I mean I'd say your specific example has a lot less to do with that as opposed to the Wisdom/Intelligence divide always being a stupid concept. The distinction has always been this odd and nebulous thing that's difficult to explain.
Acquired knowledge versus intuition/experience.

"Intelligence is knowing that a tomato is a kind-of fruit. Wisdom is not putting a tomato into a fruit salad."

It's never been difficult.

quote:

It doesn't even make sense within the game. Clerics are powerful at channeling the powers of their gods when they have a lot of... 'street smarts'? Not their force-of-will and faith in their deity? The ability score should've just been Willpower or something similar, as it is Will is the only saving throw that isn't a direct synonym for the ability score its derived from.
This is essentially true. Any linear spectrum of ability measurement for strength of Divine spellcasting gets weird when you think about it. Willpower would work, but then how would that track for other classes? You're either adding a 7th Ability Score, or messing with what the other 6 already do.

mind the walrus
Sep 22, 2006

Vanguard Warden posted:

Actually, in PF2 knowing that a tomato is a fruit would probably be Nature which is Wis based, while knowing not to put it in a fruit salad would probably be Cooking Lore which uses Int. :eng101:

Acquired knowledge is also what skill ranks represent already, and repairing something broken uses Int while treating someone's wounds uses Wis despite them both being the same fundamental concept applied to different subjects. It's silly, inconsistent, and none of it makes any sense.
If you can only prove your point by increasing granularity, you're not actually proving your point, especially where social systems are concerned.

Pathfinder 2e, like all TTRPGs, is a Game and thus a social system where the mechanics exist to service social activity, not the other way around.

Or one might even say, the difference between intellect and wisdom.

mind the walrus
Sep 22, 2006

ZenMasterBullshit posted:

Have the wisdom to not post like this.
Thanks neighborhood watch.

mind the walrus
Sep 22, 2006

Jen X posted:

I think the main issue with casters is that learning enemy saves is a nightmare to do RAW and everything else is a consequence of that

That's my big concern right now. About to run my first one-shot in 2e (and PF in general) and calculating DCs and saves seems very intimidating on the DM side. Like it looks doable, but you have to be absolutely on top of your poo poo and I'm not sure how to cheat sheet it for quick integration that doesn't disrupt narrative flow.

mind the walrus
Sep 22, 2006

The AI hype cycle is loving tedious but he's right. It's not going to get better. Artists/writers of every stripe have to start adapting now because the bottom levels are only going to get harder to live in.

I'm not buying the idea that in 5-10 years we'll all be living on Moon World because that's always the promise and it's always bullshit, but it is true that Pandora's Box is open and everything now is some level of dealing with it.

And yeah it will make entering the field of self-publishing a lot easier, because as much as we all hate to admit it the bar for "good enough" with art for most consumers is a lot lower than we'd like it to be. Who cares if it all looks like shaved ballsack made out of septic tank refuse? It's cheap and easy and looks good enough.

What I want to know is what sorts of text garbage rules are going to happen-- if it's not out there already someone will definitely be posting a "We played a TTRPG made entirely by rules from an AI!" soon.

mind the walrus
Sep 22, 2006

Boba Pearl posted:

Not to carry on this derail, but I would like to lie a ton about poo poo I know nothing about, and prove why everyone hates artists.

And the art's not stolen, you posted it on the web for people to see, and someone or something learned off of it. You can't actually copyright a style.
That seems like some spurious bullshi--

Boba Pearl posted:

Maybe you should have learned to do a job that pays instead of whining about how other people make art? No-one's lamenting failed twitch streamers because they don't get to sit around and play video games for a living. Sorry your hobby isn't marketable.

--there it is. Nothing says "I am worth loving" like being a callow bully and sniping when people (correctly) point out that the AI hype train is another in a long line of magic beans and attempts to manufacture a gold rush that will eventually settle the gently caress down.

I was being even-handed earlier but seriously get a hobby. I hear Pathfinder 2e can be nice.

--------------------------

I finally ran "A Fistful of Flowers" and while the newbies struggled, I chalk that up far more to their complete unwillingness to read up on the cheat sheets I sent them and not an actual problem with the system. Ran very, very smoothly once we got it going. I'm already queuing up "Little Trouble in Big Absolom" for some other newbies, although we'll probably have them create their own Kobolds.

mind the walrus
Sep 22, 2006

Thaumaturge itself has a first level feat for reloading specifically right? Could pair well with Gunslinger archetype.

mind the walrus
Sep 22, 2006

yeah rule of thumb is to tune the encounters down at first and have some backup monsters ready to come in to escalate the encounter if need be. In a worst-case you can always juice the HP blocks

mind the walrus
Sep 22, 2006

Rescue Toaster posted:

Oof. I've got a player who seems to have decided that wanting to play an evil character is their hill to die on. So I'm either dealing with that bullshit the whole time or someone being resentful about me putting my foot down.

Frankly it's just loving obliterated all my enthusiasm about running a game instantly.

GMs are always in higher demand than players. Own that and keep the foot down. Maybe offer to run an evil one-shot as a consolation if you're exceptionally nice.

mind the walrus
Sep 22, 2006

Rescue Toaster posted:

I don't think the guy is aiming to create unnecessary conflict with the other players, but also can't really articulate exactly what he's going for other than character being kind of a selfish rear end in a top hat, so...

Everything is manageable or whatever, I'm more so questioning, if I get this discouraged this fast over some dumb BS am I not actually as hyped to run something as I thought I was. I put a good chunk of money into books, Foundry, modules, etc... haven't even had one session and I already feel ready to just bail on it all.

You. Can. Say. No.

Harold Fjord posted:

And if they end up killing him for robbing them that's a perfectly fine way for him to learn that lesson
In my experience this kind of humiliation, however justified, could be avoided by just saying "No. That's at odds with the overall table. We have to change it or you can't play."

mind the walrus
Sep 22, 2006

This isn't quite a mechanical question, more of a conceptual one.

I'm rewriting "Little Trouble in Big Absolom" to utilize flavor from the Dark Archive. The granny who is blind and doddering will now be putting on an act as a Secret Society member. The party will encounter a cryptid in the basement as a sub-boss and as an optional encounter in the second half. A fungus Leshy will now be a Grindywort as a sort of sad tragic figure.

The thing is I can't quite think of a good concept to end it. In the original the party of Level 1 Kobolds are tasked with getting a Hedge Trimmer from a nearby house, and have to fight 4 "Lawn Crayfish" at the end. I'm obviously rewriting the Hedge Trimmer to be a spookier item-- probably a "Cloak of the False Foe" as a lure Granny uses to get them killed-- but what kind-of monsters are good for Level 1 Kobolds?

The cryptid is one of those "rumored" Cryptids that doesn't like to be seen or noticed much, so the enemy needs to be a more vicious prowling type of thing. I looked through the first 2 Bestiaries and nothing jumped out at me. Wracking my brain to have a concept I can flesh out mechanically. Hrm.

mind the walrus fucked around with this message at 22:44 on Mar 25, 2023

mind the walrus
Sep 22, 2006

KPC_Mammon posted:

I'd be hesitant to replace that enemy. They are really slow and hit like a truck. In a stand up fight they will obliterate the party. After one of our kobolds was downed in a single round we realized we weren't playing 5e and kicked their rear end by properly using 2e's three action economy.

They make for a very different fight than a lot of other low level stuff.

Maybe just reflavor them?

I really like that adventure though, in large part because of how low stakes and silly it is. There are already enough spooky scary adventures, I want more kobold misadventures, not less.

Oh I'm making two versions, essentially. One that's run as-is for newbies, and one that is for these particular players who are more experienced in 5e and very specifically want to experience things like PF's Witch, Thaumaturge, Investigator, Inventor, etc.

I decided on Psychopomps-- a Nosoi and 3 NPCs with the Secret Society bonus. It'll be fun!

mind the walrus
Sep 22, 2006

Rescue Toaster posted:

I mean I don't think you're wrong. As I'm learning the pf2e rules I'm getting annoyed by the things that are referenced in only one direction, if you will. I can't find anything about the potency rune or etching process says it becomes a "Magical Weapon". Clearly based on this it does, assuming you know specifically to search for Magical Weapon instead of looking anywhere in the runes or crafting. Just annoying to me.
According to page 580-581 in the Core Rulebook says:

quote:

Four fundamental runes produce the most essential magic
of protection and destruction: armor potency and resilient
runes for armor, and weapon potency and striking runes for
weapons. A potency rune is what makes a weapon a magic
weapon (page 599)
or armor magic armor (page 556).

quote:

I still think it's vague about weapons and attacks and damage and what is actually carrying the trait that affects the resistance/weakness. You yourself say 'if it is a magical weapon it is doing magical damage.' Please define 'magical damage'.
Per page 452 of the Core Rulebook:

quote:

Ghosts and other incorporeal creatures have a high
resistance to physical attacks that aren’t magical (attacks
that lack the magical trait).
Furthermore, most incorporeal
creatures have additional, though lower, resistance to
magical physical damage (such as damage dealt from a
mace with the magical trait) and most other damage types
This is the clearest I could find on short notice but implies that if the attack comes from a source that has the Magical trait, then it is therefore Magical damage. Other types on the page including Poison, Alignment, Bleed, etc. do not specify magical or non-magical, and the section on Energy Damage simply makes note of types of Energy and not source.

quote:

Are you implying that magic damage is a type?
If the source has the magical trait, then yes.

quote:

Or are you implying that damage can carry a literal trait?
It essentially does, even if it is not formally declared as such. Damage from a lightning bolt has traits that are different from those of an Acid Spray.

quote:

Or is it that the attack that carries the trait?
The source emanating the damage does, Emanating in this case defined as "To flow out or issue; proceed, as from a source or origin; come or go forth" which would qualify for magical spells, blunt force trauma (e.g: kinetic energy flowing out from potential energy of say, a hammer's swing), or ammunition that passes through a magical weapon.

quote:

Do weapons always imbue all their traits to the attack, and the attack always imbues all its traits to the damage?
Yes.

quote:

Where does it say this?
Wherever the damage listing in a stat block, spell description, item description, weapon description, etc. says.

This is derived from the understanding of one of the common, intended paths for resolution of conflict (e.g: combat) and a transitive extrapolation of how damage works from weaponry we have real world reference for (see: the hammer swing in the paragraphs above), with clear exceptions delineated where relevant.

For the case of Magical Ammunition-- between the way ammunition is described to have unique magical properties decoupled from its source of emanation-- p. 80-83 of the 2nd Edition Treasure Vault or p. 168-171 in 2nd Guns & Gears with the Magical Trait; the way Spellshot, Beast Gunner, and Eldritch Archer are Archetypes described to have unique effects on ammunition with abilities that have the Magical Trait on p. 140-141 and p. 130-131 of Guns & Gears and p. 172-173 of the Advanced Player's Guide; descriptions of Runes imbuing Weapons with the Magical Trait (p. 580-581, Core Rulebook) and the way that ranged weapons across all sources lack the Magical Trait, we can infer that the intended ruleset is to treat regular ammunition gains the Magical Trait when used via a source that possesses the Magical Trait, but does not otherwise.

Now I could just be really off-base on all of this as I'm pretty new to PF2e specifically, but based on my understanding TTRPGs and referencing these sources, this seems to be the designed intent. Of course it could always be ruled elsewise, as is the prerogative of any GM for any reason.

mind the walrus
Sep 22, 2006

Brand entropy only gets so far and in the real world the Red Ampersand isn't cool, it's just stylish

mind the walrus
Sep 22, 2006

Been there. No matter how obvious it is that something will use a breath weapon in a cone, no matter how experienced the players are, they'll still panic and line up like ducks because "I'm thinking about how being here will make the next round better."

mind the walrus
Sep 22, 2006

Coming from D&D5e the way some players will try to hatchet skill checks over and over until they get useful intel on their opponents and circumstances are definitely a thing, so I appreciate PF2e's attempts to square that circle. I think it's a good job overall, especially because unlike D&D5e you have far clearer options and information to share.

pumpinglemma posted:

I like the Rules Lawyer’s rule on this - a recall knowledge success means you get the name and basic fluff, plus the answer to one question (e.g. weakest save, does it have an opportunity attack). A critical success means you get two questions.
I'll be integrating this in the future, but keeping the rolls themselves secret. It's a good compromise that lets the players have a sense of agency but doesn't let them game the DC too much.

mind the walrus
Sep 22, 2006

Opened up the Demiplane Alpha Character Builder. Aside from expected roughness from being an alpha where it's rather slow in loading, overall my impressions are very favorable.

Spell lists in particular are very good, and it fixes the big problem from DNDBeyond and other character builders with an elegant hybrid of "here is each step you have to take" and "overwhelming amount of noise."

But it's still got a lot of cooking to do. I especially want them to retool how to add equipment because as it stands it's the exact same "tiny sidebar hope you know exactly what you're looking for already" nightmare that is the DNDBeyond inventory. Given how much more important/impactful items are in PF2e-- good lord they need to make that a priority before even Beta launches.

There's also some hiccups if you pick a Feat that requires you to "double back" and say-- grab another Ancestry Feat-- and the Feat Lists definitely need filters, but I really am encouraged by the foundation set up. Optimize the speed for players and make it zippy, and really fine-tune the use and it would easily be the best builder I've seen so far.

mind the walrus
Sep 22, 2006

pumpinglemma posted:

Admittedly I’m new to the system, but it feels to me like if you have a character concept then the system is rich enough that there’s probably a way to turn it into a viable character (especially with free archetype), and any two characters from a given class will feel incredibly different from each other even before bringing in ancestries and archetypes. Also, there seems to be a pretty huge feat selection and especially at higher levels those feats often do really cool things rather than “+1 to number”. For me a lot of that was there in 3.5e from the sheer variety of available classes, but was totally missing in 5e - in that system it always felt to me like I was picking one of ten pregens with minor variations, feats were scarce, and often the same feats were optimal for every character (like lucky).
That's the exact same impression I have, except unlike 3.5e it doesn't feel like the balanced gets absolutely borkered when you let the players really unspool themselves.

5e always seemed most concerned with getting people at the table long enough for promo shots and the rest was "eh you can figure it out you're smart."

AnEdgelord posted:

The higher quality of published adventures is also a big draw for me as well. Even the good 5e adventures like Curse of Strahd are usually laid out a lot worse than their Pf2e equivalents and are generally harder to read
I've run 2 full 5e campaigns over the course of years, and sat in on a few more. The 5e Campaign books are just... not very good. They have good elements to be sure, but you have to do an absolute ton of extra work to really cook it into anything worthwhile.

mind the walrus
Sep 22, 2006

Jarvisi posted:

Anyone have any experience navigating VTT content creators? I've looked at a couple of battlemap creators and they all require not just a Patreon sub but also subscribing to something called Moulinette. This is all just way too much hassle for pretty maps
Been looking at possible solutions for my own VTT stuff as someone at the functional poverty line and yeah they're pretty dire. Everyone wants you to spend the moon and that's fair, but it's a competitive marketplace where I'm really not sure what's wheat and what's chaff. Hell I still need to save $50 to afford Foundry.

Captain Oblivious posted:

That’s fair. I am mostly coming at it from the perspective of more multiple enemy fights at the moment.
Just nth-ing what was already said that it's still worth it to trip if you have any synergy with your party. Flat-footed is the same bonus you get when you successfully flank, helps Rogues deal out the big damage, and gets applied to most attacks you and your teammates can dish out.

You might think "oh a -2 to AC isn't that much" but remember that in PF2e a -1 or -2 increases the chances of getting a critical success on a roll significantly (a -1 increases by about 10%, but I suck at scaling so don't ask me what -2 does), which is great whether you're trying to induce damage or an effect of some kind.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

I just got my new Adventure Path book for the month and while I need to dig in to set it up for future campaigns-- have a few things to go through first-- I am really excited that there's a high level Fey-oriented campaign.



The cards seem varied and interesting, and The Harrow Court is a very interesting setting. Also loving the time spent in the Grand Bazaar just to start.

mind the walrus
Sep 22, 2006

Enos Cabell posted:

This is definitely up there for dumbest looking armor I've ever seen.
It definitely has that "Well it takes 3 hours to don so once it's on I'm not doing anything else for the day but armor stuff" vibe.

I like it because Fey bullshit is by definition Fey bullshit and you want a degree of "oh come on" to the proceedings.

mind the walrus
Sep 22, 2006

Big Mouth Billy Basshole posted:

Thaumaturge question: on a successful exploit weakness do you learn the value of the target's highest weakness? In the crit success description it specifically calls out that you learn the appropriate values but that wording isn't in the success description.

Logically I think it should, since the player should be able to determine if they want to use the personal antitheses or its mortal weakness.

I don't have the wording in front of me but that was my interpretation-- on a successful exploit weakness the GM can share the highest or most relevant weakness to the player, unless that GM is a dick.

mind the walrus
Sep 22, 2006

the_steve posted:

This has probably been asked a million times before, but, what's a good adventure path for an inexperienced DM who is bad at it? Like, what's newbie friendly?

The last time I tried running anything, it was Waterdeep: Dragon Heist, and gods, I was not good at that.

Beginner's Box and the Free RPG day sets-- Little Trouble in Big Absolom, A Fistful Of Flowers, and Threshold of Knowledge are all also very good and clearly designed to walk absolute neophytes through the process. I've run two of them and they both play really well with newbies and give GMs a good variety of taste for various things your average Adventures will have.

mind the walrus
Sep 22, 2006

LukasR23 posted:

And Thankfully this isn't 5e, so you don't have to homebrew fifty million things to cover for gaps in the ruleset.
Good loving lord isn't this the truth.

LukasR23 posted:

Generally it's best to stick with what the book recommends.
I've noticed a lot of players, especially players who cut their teeth on D&D meme culture, really buy into the idea that they need to break the game conceits to have a good time and/or that their character is a reflection of themselves and should thus be a showcase for their purest expression. Neither are really true, even in D&D. Breaking game conceits is a dick move that kills campaigns before they get going, and like all creative media you need to learn how to let go of what is precious to you once it's time-- even your homebrew barbarian who is a total reflection of you.

Back to the subject of picking classes or backgrounds very far afield of what the Adventure Path suggests-- you're signing up for an adventure to be Blood Lords or Circus Performers or Paranormal Investigators or Magic Students. If those concepts aren't appealing to you to create a character in that vein, then you need to communicate with the GM to run something else or open up your mind a bit to the possibilities.

PF2e is a game that really rewards you for "coloring inside the lines" but leaves a lot of space within those lines for expression. It's a different, more trusting mentality. The fun thing I've noticed is that once players accept like "Ok so I'm not making my Barney the Hedgehog OC or if I am he has to fit this game's Pirate theme" they realize very quickly that Pathfinder is very supportive and gives them way more wiggle room to be themselves than they thought they had.

mind the walrus
Sep 22, 2006

Re: Extinction Curse

I always get the impression people were expecting a Circus-driven adventure versus an adventure where the players happen to drive a Circus. Small difference but it explains a fair bit.

mind the walrus
Sep 22, 2006

I actually bothered to spend money on the CRB, APG, GMG, and such in the past few months and I am stoked. It's good to have a new jumping on point for new players and to be able to be even more stand-alone from WotC because seriously gently caress WotC.

mind the walrus
Sep 22, 2006

gurragadon posted:

Getting rid of the ability scores and just making them modifiers makes sense, scores really aren't used for anything, and you don't roll stats in pathfinder 2e anyway.

The real question is are they going to put a good index in the new edition!? I would buy a copy for that.
I literally gave a PF2e crash course for absolute TTRPG newbies and understanding Ability Scores was an issue they had trouble with, so yeah getting rid of them in a system where you don't even roll scores makes sense. Hell we used the Beginner's Box prebuilt PDFs as a demo and they don't even have the scores-- just modifiers.

Blockhouse posted:

people on the paizo forums are apoplectic about alignment being removed not understanding that this doesn't radically alter the cosmology of the setting
Lmao they can bite down and deal. Even in 5e a decade ago, Alignment was an obvious relic that only applied in a tiny handful of cases that 5e didn't even use. The anathema and edict system of PF2e fills the same role much, much better. They can keep it for Outer Planes and monster stuff, but like, it doesn't need to be more than that.

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I'm gearing up to run two groups-- one Extinction Curse and one Stolen Fate. Anyone who played in or GMed either of those have any recommendations? Mostly new players, but some 5e experience and everyone's on-point.

mind the walrus fucked around with this message at 02:38 on Apr 27, 2023

mind the walrus
Sep 22, 2006

Mister Olympus posted:

I've talked about Extinction Curse before, and what I said holds up: You want your group not to care too much about the idea that their characters want to be circus people forever. The module really wants like, unlikely young heroes with troubled pasts who ran off to join the circus rather than blungus the magnificent honklord who, when hearing about a wizard plague, probably just goes "you should report that to the good wizards idk i'm a clown"

But beyond that, you'll probably need to clean up a lot of the angles that the module takes in its plot, because frankly, it's really written for an uncomplicated "orcs bad, humans good" type of mindset. The side that you are fighting for is unarguably the one that started the problem, but aren't directly responsible for its consequences today. Does that mean you let people die in order to only partially restore something lost forever? The game wants you to say no but that's only because the people reclaiming their ancestral artifacts are now demon-possessed fallout mutants as a direct consequence of the fact that they had those things stolen from them. Extinction Curse steps directly into a moral problem that it is not at all interested in really grappling with in a meaningful way, presumably because the writers just never caught what they were actually talking about. Do you play FF14? It's Heavensward but you can't actually get the dragons to sit down and talk. If you're not interested in drastically changing around plot beats and sequences of events, I recommend looking at some other 1-20 adventures.

As a module, mechanically? It's fine, if a little undertuned at times. If your party is smart about things they'll be able to do most dungeons without a long rest, which definitely isn't what the module assumes. Be careful about severe solo encounters, they tend to be things that demand magic-bullet solutions that a lot of party compositions will have a very hard time dealing with, and that if let go too long, will totally splatter a group.

Thanks all of that sounds completely workable from my end. I had already picked up on the colonial backwash that it wasn't really going to engage with properly and have adjusted NPC/locations/plot details to be a little less "Glenn Goodman" and "XiphotataclickshopavichZhang: The Foreign." I hadn't done much more than Book 3 on prep so I'm hoping it's easy enough to adjust, but given how easy it was to turn "Little Trouble in Big Absalom" into a Session 0 for the Dark Archive I feel weirdly confident about being able to wrangle something a little less neolib about of the whole affair. It can't be any worse than Rime of the loving Frostmaiden holy poo poo that one was bad. We finished that one out of spite for the spackle and elbow grease it took to wrangle a cogent narrative from its uncooked pages.

Thank you for the info about severe solo encounters. So far my players are building Summoners, Gunslingers, Psychics, etc. so that sort-of thing is on my mind. What can I say? I don't attract players who like a good scrap. I attract players who prefer gimmicks and being in the back line so to speak.

The Golux posted:

Hmm... Some of the things they're talking about sound decent, some I'm not a huge fan of... And losing a bunch of classic monsters and spells/magic items (even if redesigned alternatives exist) could be a bit rough. But I understand the legal reasons they're doing it.
Given just how hard WotC punched its own gonads the timing really is never going to get any better to make this size of a break.

mind the walrus
Sep 22, 2006

gently caress yes. If it's in the vein of Kingmaker/Wrath of the Righteous with 2e rules that could be very good.

mind the walrus
Sep 22, 2006

Aw. I mean I'm not *un*happy with it, I'll play it if it's on sale, but like... yeah this isn't what I hoped for and I won't be backing it. No disrespect though.

mind the walrus
Sep 22, 2006

Dungeon Meister posted:

I haven't played 2e yet, but I'm curious about the way you take up to three actions on your turn. It sounds like a fun, versatile mechanic, but I was wondering if it slowed combat down or caused balance issues. What's everyone's experience with it?
Once everyone maps to it, it's smooth like butter. It definitely takes some clunk to get there, but once the players realize the rules are there to facilitate smoothness, not hinder, it goes fast.

Lamuella posted:

If you know what you're doing with it, it can free up players and enemies to do more interesting things, including non-combat encounter interactions with consequence. Depending on your players you may have to break them out of "OK, so I attack, I attack again, and... I attack."
Sadly also this. The multiple attack penalty is clearly designed to mitigate this unless the players prioritize minimizing it. It's also on the GM to use 3 actions for the monsters to show how devastating they can be if the players don't use stuns, disarms, debuffs, etc.

3 Action Economist posted:

Looks like we're getting a book next year with 6 new ancestries, including minotaurs and centaurs.

https://paizo.com/community/blog/v5748dyo6siay?Grandmother-s-Story-Part-5-The-Howl-of-the-Wild

(Scroll down through the story.)

E: Hoping this means we get other big ancestries like half-giant.

Absolutely loving the Concert Frog.

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I'm running my first Stolen Fate session soon. Nervous but also very excited. So far it's an enjoyable Adventure but I've never run anything this high level, and 50% of our party is brand new to TTRPGs. Going to be a hell of an experiment.

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mind the walrus
Sep 22, 2006

Finally ran "Stolen Fate" last night and it went decently. The total newbies picked up fairly quickly, but unfortunately the Ranger had picked a build that was 100% ineffective against the opening monsters. Two of them caught Ferrugon tetanus from attacks so that'll be fun to have them blossom. I ended up having the Ferrugon bail out because 195 HP with a 10 Physical Resistance meant it was tanking way too much. The Osyluth got straight-up wrestled to death by the enlarged Monk though, who was insistent that she "played the ribcage like a violent xylophone" with flurry of blows and struck the death blow by grabbing the tail to lift the fucker up and then whip them down onto a table.

The "Influence" section is going fantastically. They're really loving it.

Really looking forward to how it goes forwards. This is so, so much better than previous systems we used, warts and all.

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