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The Bee
Nov 25, 2012

Making his way to the ring . . .
from Deep in the Jungle . . .

The Big Monkey!

Froghammer posted:

Is 8 PCs too many for PF2e? I have an upcoming campaign with potentially that many players

8 feels too many for any system that isn't just improv and beer, tbh.

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The Bee
Nov 25, 2012

Making his way to the ring . . .
from Deep in the Jungle . . .

The Big Monkey!

bewilderment posted:

As it always has been, the real answer is to kill ability scores entirely.

Between background, feats, ancestry features and feats, and class and everything that comes with that, ability scores are mostly a non-choice prepicked based on your build. You could say "everyone starts with an 18 in every score" and the game of Pathfinder 2e would not be meaningfully different.

This is kind of where I'm at tbh. For something so core to RPG design, they feel more like limitations than anything. Maybe if every ability score did something of interest for every character concept, it could be interesting. Instead, you get your middle numbers exactly where they need to be, you put your high number as high as you can, and your low ones just kinda fester.

The Bee
Nov 25, 2012

Making his way to the ring . . .
from Deep in the Jungle . . .

The Big Monkey!
I recently picked up the Beginner's Box on Foundry for some friends. How is Pirate King's Plunder, if I wanted to give it a quick run-through to both get more familiar with Foundry and the system as a whole.

The Bee
Nov 25, 2012

Making his way to the ring . . .
from Deep in the Jungle . . .

The Big Monkey!
I think they get partial traits at best just so they fit in more as PCs.

The Bee fucked around with this message at 19:25 on Feb 15, 2023

The Bee
Nov 25, 2012

Making his way to the ring . . .
from Deep in the Jungle . . .

The Big Monkey!
This is why I will forever hate mental ability scores. Name Intelligence something else, like Magicality, and you'd never have the issue of people treating half of your stat sheet as roleplaying decision.

The Bee
Nov 25, 2012

Making his way to the ring . . .
from Deep in the Jungle . . .

The Big Monkey!
I know this is a convention changelog designed to make things sound cool. But, man, shedding the legacy baggage sounds like net win after net win here.

The Bee
Nov 25, 2012

Making his way to the ring . . .
from Deep in the Jungle . . .

The Big Monkey!

Hellioning posted:

I feel that all this proves is that Pathfinder marketing itself as 'DnD but different' was a mistake in the first place.

Yeah. All those D&D-isms are kind of outing themselves as a shaky foundation for a game, and its interesting to see the parallel in Pathfinder slowly diverging from them while everyone else is trying to make their own I Can't Believe It's Not D&D.

The Bee
Nov 25, 2012

Making his way to the ring . . .
from Deep in the Jungle . . .

The Big Monkey!
It might be that they don't understand or particularly enjoy Pathfinder 2E's play loop, tbh. I'm gonna guess the group's already had a heart to heart on it, though.

The Bee
Nov 25, 2012

Making his way to the ring . . .
from Deep in the Jungle . . .

The Big Monkey!
I feel like telling a lie would be fun in, say, a PbtA system. There, being blown off course is part of the fun. In a crunchy tactical system like PF2E, at best you're wasting people's time and at worst yiu're getting people killed.

The Bee fucked around with this message at 19:48 on Sep 2, 2023

The Bee
Nov 25, 2012

Making his way to the ring . . .
from Deep in the Jungle . . .

The Big Monkey!

Dick Burglar posted:

I actually think fighter and wizard (or "magic-user" in OD&D) are boring, uninspired classes that should be more like "base classes" that your character grows out of and into a more interesting specialty class, than actual, full classes. I recognize that that style of character development wouldn't work in the D&D-style character development paradigm, but that's really the only way I feel like fighters and wizards have a purpose.

It feels almost like a symptom of base class drift. You had No Magic Man, Magic Man, and God Magic Man as your original three classes, and those really kinda covered all the bases you could possibly think of. Starting with the Rogue, what a base class meant started to get more specific and narrow in fantasy, and that means the original three catch-alls start to feel increasingly weird and nebulous. Cleric at least has the unique identity of being the only direct conduit to a god, and that's mostly because the other god focused classes either stopped being about gods or stopped existing in recent materials. But the fact that Fighters coexist with more specific fantasies like Barbarians and Rangers has always been so weird.

The Bee
Nov 25, 2012

Making his way to the ring . . .
from Deep in the Jungle . . .

The Big Monkey!
Wasn't the original three Fighting-Man, Magic-User, and Cleric, with Thief coming out next and Paladin as some sorta superclass?

The Bee
Nov 25, 2012

Making his way to the ring . . .
from Deep in the Jungle . . .

The Big Monkey!

Impermanent posted:

Leshy own. They hit the same players who want to be goblins. There's an entire archetype of player that just wants to be a scamp.

It really does feel like if Goblins were the PF1E mascot, Leshy have that role for PF2E on lock.

The Bee
Nov 25, 2012

Making his way to the ring . . .
from Deep in the Jungle . . .

The Big Monkey!
I think better communication about what "not unpleasant or difficult" entails makes all the difference there. Saying you won't make it hard, then springing the fact that they're effectively pariahs in every town and routinely denied service can feel like vengeful DMing, even if it just comes from a communication hiccup.

The Bee
Nov 25, 2012

Making his way to the ring . . .
from Deep in the Jungle . . .

The Big Monkey!

Froghammer posted:

This is a really important point, and the touches on the thing that bothered me the most about the post that kicked this whole thing off. Being the victim of systemic oppression should be a thing you opt into or out of in a roleplaying game context, and that decision should 100% be divorced from wanting to be a lizard person or having devil horns.

"Your character will face discrimination and bigotry based being what they are" can be incredibly triggering and is a bullshit thing to spring on a player without their enthusiastic consent, verisimilitude be damned.

I think it's fair to tie it, but you need to be upfront about that tie and exactly what it means. I also think if it's a dealbreaker, the GM and player should work together to find as satisfying of a compromise as possible.

The Bee
Nov 25, 2012

Making his way to the ring . . .
from Deep in the Jungle . . .

The Big Monkey!

Jen X posted:

This is quite literally the reason the tags work like they do! Rare and uncommon things are literally rare and uncommon in golarion, but are generally also tagged that way for either access reasons, less balancing passes on the content, severe story implications, or tendency to short-circuit challenges.

In golarion proper there’s speciesism and xenophobia and bigotry, and some people would absolutely be lovely, though usually only ever in worldbuilding because it’s kinda not great to stick in an AP

It’s up to the GM to decide if they want to run that version of the world though, and whether individual NPCs will range from hateful to fearful to curious, and if they do, to tell their players that they’re doing so explicitly, not by springing being fantasy rosa parks on the dude who just wants to play a robot and didn’t realize he was gonna be reenacting the civil rights movement

I know Golarion's been through a lot of revisions (ex, IIRC flat out removing slavery as a concept recently.) I wonder how much of that bigotry is from the grungier 1E days and how much is freshly produced for 2E.

The Bee
Nov 25, 2012

Making his way to the ring . . .
from Deep in the Jungle . . .

The Big Monkey!

marshmallow creep posted:

A druid just Johnny Appleseeding leshies everywhere he goes so he can be the mythical leshy all-father.

You get to the end of a dungeon and it turns out that druid had already been there and left a leshy to tell you what cool treasure you missed out on.

I want to see the look on a party's face when they open this big, ornate treasure chest, and all they hear is this soundbyte.

The Bee
Nov 25, 2012

Making his way to the ring . . .
from Deep in the Jungle . . .

The Big Monkey!
Pathfinder 2 draws a lot from more skirmish game-y DNA. At least, it draws enough that arbitrarily hobbling down a player's damage for reasons outside their control feels cheap. If you're going to do it, IMO it needs to be tied to player decision making and come with sufficient fallback options so they don't get left out of the encounter at character creation.

And yeah, sure. There's so much more to the game than combat. But with combat being where the lion's share of rules live and the game becomes slowest, getting left out of it always sticks out harder.

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The Bee
Nov 25, 2012

Making his way to the ring . . .
from Deep in the Jungle . . .

The Big Monkey!

blastron posted:

I generally agree, if only because it makes hero point usability so inconsistent. I can spend one to hit someone with a beam, but I can't spend one to hit them with an explosion. Similarly, I can spend a point to dodge a fireball, but I can't spend one to block an attack. These are conceptually related actions ("attack" and "defense"), so the inconsistency in usability can sometimes feel bad.

A fun alternative could be to have players roll a lot more of the dice, asymmetrically. If I throw a fireball, I would roll an attack, but if I get hit by a fireball, I would roll a save. This would have enormous knock-on effects, especially for AoE spells, which would cause a balancing nightmare, but it could be fun.

Players always rolling would probably be my ideal tbh, but I can also see how it might make things a bit chaotic.

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