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Prowler posted:I argue that RPGs are adventure games with combat and stat progression. I don't think it would be controversial to call Zelda an RPG, for example. "Is zelda an RPG" is a constant flamewar lol
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Oct 2, 2022 15:56
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| # ? Apr 29, 2024 16:44 |
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the greatest thread in the history of forums
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Oct 2, 2022 16:05
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Feldegast42 posted:the greatest thread in the history of forums Nah. Every thread dedicated to a specific video game genre starts like this. Eventually, everyone moves on, and actual discussion and recommendation of games happens.
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Oct 2, 2022 16:18
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i still need to do ender lillies...
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Oct 2, 2022 16:35
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I'm a simple man. I see an inventory screen with empty spots, I see an obstacle I can't overcome. I make a note of where it is, and later on I will come back and mash my face against it with all my shiny new toys to find all the secrets I can possibly find. That's what makes a good EXPLORATION-BASED ACTION PLATFORMER ADVENTURE game! That's one reason why I highly, highly recommend Supraland https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=viUJ_oTqYJ0 It's a first-person "Metroidvania" inspired puzzle-heavy exploration game styled after a kid's sandbox full of toys and household objects. You play as a Red Meeple who has to save the Red Village by finding out why the Blue Meeple have sabotaged the water. You start off with a (admittedly pretty dire) Triple Jump and a Force Cube that essentially acts as one triple-jump-sized vertical lift. You'll get to whack things with a wooden sword and eventually get a gun that gets upgrades to shoot stuff. That's all pretty bog standard. What's completely different about this game is that the puzzle-solving/movement upgrades you get throughout the game turn the game world on its head multiple times. While the start of the game has you shooting little skeleton men and collecting coins, you very quickly pick up powerups that fundamentally change how you look at the environments and how you traverse them. I won't spoil any of them in here (and the trailer only shows one of them off for a brief second), but one of the first major movement upgrades you get in the game lets you return to earlier areas to completely break open the platforming you may have been struggling with before. Once you pick up one of the major color-coded new items that affect how you interact with the world, there's always a genuine moment where you have to ask yourself "...Well gently caress. How many ways can I use this on its own, and how many ways can this item interact with everything else I've picked up to really break this poo poo wide open?" There's also a ton of secrets in the game, and they actually matter quite a bit for general traversal and dealing with enemies. There's general "Laser goes pew better" powerups, but there's also a ton of secret powerups that will only come into play within other secret areas that get you even more secret unlocks, which all make moving around the world/dealing with enemies easier. And one place that the game excels is with its secrets: You can find a secret area, inside a secret area, with a third secret stashed just off to the side if you're paying attention. The solo-developer who made the original game spent a lot of time mashing his face against all the corners of the world, because if you can get someplace, there's probably at least some gold coins in a chest or two to reward your exploration, or a useful boost to one of your abilities. There's also DLC for the base game called Supraland Crash, which doesn't introduce new powerups, but expands the development team a fair bit so more people can try to iterate on the puzzles from the base game and find new/interesting ways to implement the same powerups in ways you couldn't do in the base game. A sequel was also released called Supraland: Six Inches Under which is just an improvement on both the base game and the DLC in every way, in my opinion. I'd recommend playing them in-order, since trying to return to the base game's original super-short triple jump instead of a single regular-sized jump is pretty annoying until you reacclimate to it. Between both games, + Crash DLC, I've spent about 55 hours exploring and I know I haven't gotten 100% in either yet. Probably around 85-90%, but some of the secrets are so well-hidden that they can be genuinely hard to find without using some of the unlockable radar-skills (and I'm a stubborn dumbass that wants to find it without help  "
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Oct 2, 2022 16:49
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Feels Villeneuve posted:i still need to do ender lillies... its really good op
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Oct 2, 2022 17:12
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ExcessBLarg! posted:I'm not trying to be a linguistic prescriptivist, but both of the archetypal games of the genre are platformers and the term certainly historically has been used as an alternative to "exploratory platformers" as a genre. Or to quote further down on Wikipedia from the OP: That's all fine, but even the article you quoted doesn't say they are platformers, just that they tend to be. I wouldn't personally call Zelda an MV but it fits enough of the bill that I wouldn't bother arguing.
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Oct 2, 2022 17:22
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Feels Villeneuve posted:"Is zelda an RPG" is a constant flamewar lol Anyways I think that's all a bit academic. As a series, Zelda has such a legacy that it can just be its own thing. When people describe a game as a "Zeldalike" they have a pretty good sense of what the game is about. Regarding Metroidvanias, I've committed myself to playing through all of Metorid Prime Trilogy in PrimeHack on my Deck for the next few months. I also have Other M working, so I uh, might actually play that after sitting in shrinkwrap for a decade.
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Oct 2, 2022 17:25
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ExcessBLarg! posted:If folks agree to call OG Zelda a Metroidvania, like, fine, but that's certainly an expansion of the genre relative to what it's been traditionally. I mean we could've called it Melda or Zeldroid all the way back in 1987. "Traditionally" the term originated from talking about just the Castlevania franchise and trying to refer to the more open-world, exploration-based Castlevanias like Symphony of the Night following the formula of Metroid, as opposed to the rest of the franchise that was more the standard linear for platformers. They were figuring out what was different about those Castlevanias from the other Castlevanias, and figured that they were more like Metroid. And I think that it's worth noting that most of those aspects that make Metroidvanias special were invented before Metroid, by Zelda. It's the organic exploration with upgrades that steadily open up more over time as you get items to overcome obstacles. And it's a lot easier to revisit the original Zelda than it is to revisit the original Metroid. Plebian Parasite posted:What's the best upgrade in a Metroidvania? The best abilities are the ones that you can use in regular gameplay as opposed to being context-sensitive to just one spot to open one door.
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Oct 2, 2022 17:43
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i love a good ground pound attack
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Oct 2, 2022 17:44
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I'm glad we found something technical and kind of pointless to argue about, that pretty much guarantees the longevity of a thread
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Oct 2, 2022 17:50
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every metroidvania discussion turns into genre arguments immediately
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Oct 2, 2022 17:52
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Edilaic posted:Speaking of really early examples of the genre, and looking at Astalon, I'm reminded of The Maze of Galious (Knightmare II). I played a ton of it on emulator when I was a kid and had just learned about the existence of the MSX. It does look like it still loses out to Zelda in age though, it's from 1987. Very cool game. Some fans recently upgraded it to take advantage of what the MSX2 could do, because MSX fans are nuts, and it's a great way to revisit the game. https://github.com/bladeba/MSX/tree/master/Enhanced%20Games/Galious%20-%20enhanced The largest benefit is that it makes bats visible against the background. Also check out this sweet 1996 map of the castle, wow! 
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Oct 2, 2022 18:00
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Heck yeah, I would much rather have a thread filled with posts that only complain about other posts! It's good to set expectations, because it's obvious we all seem to have a different idea of what the genre is. For example, I picked up Unsighted because it was marketed as a metroidvania/souls-like. I picked up Muramasa: The Demon Blade for Wii because it was marketed (and reviewed as) a metroidvania. I would consider neither of these games metroidvanias. Unsighted, to me, is a Zelda-like (heck, one of the coolest items you get is inspired by a dungeon item in Twilight Princess). Muramasa is just an a linear action game where you don't get any additional movement abilities--and progress isn't gated behind abilities or any change to the character (you basically get swords that act as keys for the next area and usually involves backtracking). Unsighted is a cool game you should try anyway. Muramasa had some very memorable music and was fun to zone out and button mash with. (Edit: also a gorgeous game, I emulated the Wii version with a 4k texture pack). ----- Regarding favorite movement/ability upgrade, I love the games that are more heavily inspired by Castlevania and add in weapons/mechanics that allow you to cancel animations. Chasm, for example, baked in landing animation canceling for large weapons. It's really satisfying to attack, land, and attack again immediately. Edit: Would the original Blaster Master be considered a metroidvania? Prowler fucked around with this message at 18:19 on Oct 2, 2022 |
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Oct 2, 2022 18:15
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Zelda dungeons are mini metroidvanias connected by an overworld that usually isn't
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Oct 2, 2022 18:19
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Prowler posted:Edit: Would the original Blaster Master be considered a metroidvania? Any attempt to define the genre would probably include it but I don't think most people would consider it one.
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Oct 2, 2022 18:43
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ultrafilter posted:Any attempt to define the genre would probably include it but I don't think most people would consider it one. who are you asking? the game is about getting upgrades to reach new areas. that's like, the thing!
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Oct 2, 2022 19:36
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Prowler posted:Edit: Would the original Blaster Master be considered a metroidvania?
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Oct 2, 2022 20:10
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SotN and it's ilk make things even fuzzier because they also lean heavily on RPG systems. Which places it further into overlap with Dark Souls, but in a way unrelated to MV-ness.
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Oct 3, 2022 00:13
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thecluckmeme posted:I'm a simple man. I see an inventory screen with empty spots, I see an obstacle I can't overcome. I make a note of where it is, and later on I will come back and mash my face against it with all my shiny new toys to find all the secrets I can possibly find. That's what makes a good EXPLORATION-BASED ACTION PLATFORMER ADVENTURE game! Speaking of, Supraland: Six Inches Under has a pretty good sale going on today.
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Oct 3, 2022 05:47
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Feels Villeneuve posted:"adventure" is by far the worst defined genre name in games, and i can get why people wouldn't use it It's a misleading label for sure, but Adventure games are in the same genre-naming boat as Metroidvania, Roguelike, Souls-like and how FPS used to be called Doom clones, they're named after Adventure (1976) a.k.a. Colossal Cave Adventure which was the first game in its genre and directly inspired Zork and other text adventures and later the same design lineage produced the graphical adventures of Sierra, LucasArts etc. I hate the word Metroidvania though because I associate it with cooler-than-thou videogame hipsters like Tim Rogers but it's basically stuck.
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Oct 3, 2022 10:29
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Plebian Parasite posted:What's the best upgrade in a Metroidvania? Ahti’s Walkman in Control
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Oct 3, 2022 10:55
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This is just me, but I don't think Ender Lilies is particularly good. It's mediocre at best.Plebian Parasite posted:What's the best upgrade in a Metroidvania? I love a good grappling hook, that's probably the right answer. But also, double jumps and air dashes are so satisfying, too.
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Oct 3, 2022 15:33
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Plebian Parasite posted:What's the best upgrade in a Metroidvania? Bash is really really good, but I have to give it to flight in SteamWorld Dig 2
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Oct 3, 2022 17:56
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Plebian Parasite posted:What's the best upgrade in a Metroidvania? 9 out of 10 times it's the double/space jump, but for Ori I'd say the charge jump rendered a lot of traversing much easier or faster.
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Oct 3, 2022 18:15
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King of Solomon posted:This is just me, but I don't think Ender Lilies is particularly good. It's mediocre at best. How many games have a good grappling hook though? I feel like that's one of the upgrades I often see that can only be used at specific predetermined points. I think one of the only games I've seen that give you a freeform grapple is Environmental Station Alpha.
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Oct 3, 2022 18:22
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SlothfulCobra posted:How many games have a good grappling hook though? I feel like that's one of the upgrades I often see that can only be used at specific predetermined points. Geappling hooks are definitely uncommon, and even when you get them they're not always great, but when you do get a good one you're in for a good time. A big part of why Environmental Station Alpha is such a good game comes from its excellent grapple.
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Oct 3, 2022 18:53
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Can't wait for Silksong to finally come out and claim the crown for this genre.Plebian Parasite posted:What's the best upgrade in a Metroidvania? Gonna go with the basic answer but the Speed Booster in pretty much any 2D Metroid. The shinespark puzzles are always fun challenge CRAZY KNUCKLES FAN fucked around with this message at 19:35 on Oct 3, 2022 |
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Oct 3, 2022 19:32
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Double jump is always the best
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Oct 3, 2022 23:52
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There is a demo out for 9 Years of Shadows on Steam and that sure continues the trend of "cool looking 2D platformer with completely insane controller mapping" like so many other recent metroidvanias.King of Solomon posted:This is just me, but I don't think Ender Lilies is particularly good. It's mediocre at best. Here is a good metroidvania: Kharon's Crypt - Even Death May Die    
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Oct 4, 2022 00:01
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Y'all insane, Ender Lilies was the best Metroidvania of 2021, and that's considering Dread came out a couple of months later.
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Oct 4, 2022 20:22
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So I'm doing my once-a-decade playthrough of Metroid Prime (on the Steam Deck, which is by far the best way to play it and will give the alleged Switch remaster a serious run for its money). Frustrating, each time I play this game I miss one missable scan, so I've never had a 100% scan log. That one mechanic is perhaps the only real flaw of the game. It's funny, like I don't give two shits about filling out the bestiary in RPGs, but I think since scanning is such a major part of the Prime's early game you get conditioned to wanting to fill out the log book and those ???????s mess with you.
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Oct 4, 2022 20:24
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I played a little of Momadora: Reverie Under the Moonlight today for the first time in forever, and I remembered how much I love that game. Aside from how gorgeous it is, I think its length is great for a game in this genre. It's long enough that you probably won't beat it in one sitting your first time, but it's short enough that replaying it on harder difficulties/more efficiently isn't at all a chore. I also really like the accessory system. It lets you have some player expression, but doesn't centralize the gameplay around making a build. Plus I like how it ties how bosses drop special equips when perfected. Do people know any other metroidvanias that have systems similar to this? Also, in regards to upgrade chat, any metroidvania that gives you an airdash at some point is doing something right in my book.
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Oct 4, 2022 22:35
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Feldegast42 posted:Oldie but goodie: Knytt Stories. Has the Nifflas done much since this? I know there was once commercial Knytt game (which I thought was disappointing) but aside from that I haven't heard anything. It's a shame, because I thought most of his early games were fantastic. Mode 7 posted:To kick it off, what’s everyone’s favourite short non-Metroid, non-Castlevania Metroidvania. Is there anything perfectly suited to blasting through in a cozy afternoon or weekend? Maybe not my favorite, but let me give a few more props to Timespinner.
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Oct 4, 2022 23:16
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The correct term is "unlock world", in the vein of "open world" and "linear". Metroid Dread is an unlock world 2d platformer. Red Dead Redemption 2 is an open world third person shooter. Wolfenstein: The New Order is a linear first person shooter. Control is an unlock world third person shooter. Binary Domain is a linear first person shooter with RPG elements. The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time is an open world third person action/adventure game with unlock world elements. Crash Twinsanity is a linear 3d platformer with open world elements. I'm happy to have cleared this up for everyone now and for the rest of time.
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Oct 5, 2022 01:01
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nah im gonna stick to backtrack-em-up
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Oct 5, 2022 01:06
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I just couldn't get into Ender Lilies. The cost lacked any weight and the splash sound effect when killing enemies makes it feel like I'm fighting a bunch of water balloons. Forgone was really good for a short one, although it's really linear with backtracking only for optional upgrades. Vigil: the Longest Night was a surprise favorite of mine, too.
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Oct 5, 2022 01:33
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OutOfPrint posted:I just couldn't get into Ender Lilies. The cost lacked any weight and the splash sound effect when killing enemies makes it feel like I'm fighting a bunch of water balloons. Ender lilies was good. Sorry you couldn't get into it
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Oct 5, 2022 01:40
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Jeabus Mahogany posted:The correct term is "unlock world", in the vein of "open world" and "linear". I'm pissed off that I like this.
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Oct 5, 2022 01:42
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Blue Labrador posted:Plus I like how it ties how bosses drop special equips when perfected. Do people know any other metroidvanias that have systems similar to this? Not metroidvanias any more than soulslikes are, but all of the german dev Deck13's games have that mechanic (Lords of the Fallen, The Surge, The Surge 2)
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Oct 5, 2022 04:57
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