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RG3 wasn't a concussion and his knee snapping like a twig under Washington was the last time I remember seeing a team so flagrantly thinking they could stretch a player's declining health as far as they could get away with it until the body physically couldn't take it any more. Everyone in the GDT that next game knew that knee was giving out in realtime right down to the final play where it said "enough"
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Sep 30, 2022 14:52
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This is depressing https://youtu.be/pPZ0dYKM-t0 Tua is clearly brain fried from this hit, and was from last week too. The neurologist absolutely needs to have full veto, the process is hosed. The NFL has proven over and over that it doesn't really give a poo poo about players and Miami has proven over and over they're one of the shittier NFL teams.
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Sep 30, 2022 14:54
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Chris James 2 posted:RG3 wasn't a concussion and his knee snapping like a twig under Washington was the last time I remember seeing a team so flagrantly thinking they could stretch a player's declining health as far as they could get away with it until the body physically couldn't take it any more. Everyone in the GDT that next game knew that knee was giving out in realtime right down to the final play where it said "enough" Along with Shanahan, LaFleur, McVay, Raheem Morris, etc...
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Sep 30, 2022 15:07
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pasaluki posted:While not being perfect I think the protocols plus most teams not wanting to kill off their players has at the very minimum not resulted in something as bad as what we've seen last night where you had something obviously happen in the last week and then the same player thrown back out there. I think obviously they should make whatever changes needed on a league level to protect the players. I am having a really hard time parsing this post.
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Sep 30, 2022 15:07
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:I am having a really hard time parsing this post. yeah I dunno just refer back to the thread title
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Sep 30, 2022 15:12
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Ches Neckbeard posted:It's right in the NFL rules that he should not at all have been let back in the game. quote:Loss of Consciousness (including Impact Seizure and/or "fencing posture") The requirement to rule out an orthopedic cause is flaw in this protocol that should have been obvious, because a lot of the mechanisms that could cause head injury could plausibly also cause (or aggravate) an orthopedic injury. This is very likely what happened on Sunday - because the same fall that caused the head injury could plausibly have caused a back injury, you can't rule out the orthopedic cause, so Tua cleared the protocol despite, with hindsight, the balance of probability that he did have a head injury. Change this language to require actually ruling out a head injury rather than failing to rule out an alternative hypothesis, by requiring that no mechanism consistent with head injury occurred or some other similarly strong requirement. That would have kept Tua in the protocol and out of at least Sunday's game (if it was followed correctly, which is a separate question which should also be investigated.)
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Sep 30, 2022 15:24
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hypnophant posted:The requirement to rule out an orthopedic cause is flaw in this protocol that should have been obvious, because a lot of the mechanisms that could cause head injury could plausibly also cause (or aggravate) an orthopedic injury. This is very likely what happened on Sunday - because the same fall that caused the head injury could plausibly have caused a back injury, you can't rule out the orthopedic cause, so Tua cleared the protocol despite, with hindsight, the balance of probability that he did have a head injury. yeah
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Sep 30, 2022 15:26
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Under normal circumstances for a normal person how hard is it to determine accurately if someone had a concussion or not?
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Sep 30, 2022 15:29
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PERPETUAL IDIOT posted:What's disingenuous about it? Don't those other recent events speak to Ross and team management being willing to bend/break the rules when they think they'll benefit from it? It goes beyond that actually. The Dolphins have had scandal after scandal since Ross bought the team. There is one detail in that tweet that isn’t technically true but who gives a gently caress ? Im embarrassed I even quarter rear end tried to defend them for a second. gently caress Stephen Ross and gently caress the Miami Dolphins.
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Sep 30, 2022 15:31
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Chris James 2 posted:
To be clear I don’t mean to say that everything was done properly, I meant that there’s a very real possibility that it was done properly and the outcome still wasn’t good.
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Sep 30, 2022 15:32
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keep digging your hole
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Impossibly Perfect Sphere posted:Under normal circumstances for a normal person how hard is it to determine accurately if someone had a concussion or not? Basically impossible even for a neurologist. Any impact to the head has the potential to cause a concussion and the signs and symptoms aren't reliable for diagnosis. You can't even rule it out with an MRI. That's why the protocol ought to be extremely conservative - ideally you'd take a player out for any head impact at all, but that's really infeasible in football where head impacts happen constantly by nature of the sport. You should definitely take out a player who had a head impact and symptoms of a head injury, like Tua did, regardless of whether you can rule out any alternative explanation for the symptoms.
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Sep 30, 2022 15:41
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Impossibly Perfect Sphere posted:Under normal circumstances for a normal person how hard is it to determine accurately if someone had a concussion or not? The brain is such a hard thing to study while someone is still alive that it's drat near impossible to properly diagnose someone. The few things that a CT scan or MRI will show; skull fractures, brain bleeds and different types of lesions are more obvious. But all these micro traumas (or in this case a couple major ones), can go unreported as long as the patient doesn't show any neurological deficits or change in attitude/behaviour from their baseline.
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Sep 30, 2022 15:58
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Hamhandler posted:To be clear I don’t mean to say that everything was done properly, I meant that there’s a very real possibility that it was done properly and the outcome still wasn’t good. This may be kinda what you're getting at, but I think there's a distinction between everything being done "properly" and everything being done "by the book." Even if you want to be generous and say the NFL's concussion protocol was followed by the book — it wasn't, as Tua was demonstrating clear physical symptoms of concussion on Sunday and needed to come out of that game, which is something the concussion protocol specifically calls out — that's still a far cry from everything being done properly, because any sensible proper treatment for Sunday's injury would never have involved him playing on Thursday.
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Sep 30, 2022 16:09
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Here’s a slide deck from a presentation on the NFL’s concussion protocols pitched at medical professionals. https://www.atlantichealth.org/cont...ussion_eval.pdf The upshot is that there is no single accurate test and identification is difficult. One thing that comes up here and also in the metastudy reviews I read last night is that the most accurate diagnosis requires a baseline both in the sense of a formal test baseline as well as baseline familiarity of the clinician with the player. This is likely why the team doctor is given primacy in making determinations, since the UNC does not travel with the team and does not necessarily have familiarity with the players and what behaviors would be normal vs suspect. Obviously this creates a conflict of interest as well. Another thing that comes up is that symptom scores are generally a pretty reliable way to detect sports-related concussion but because players will obfuscate they are of limited value. Balance and motor function tests can also be of limited use since players are often hurt and fatigued when the tests are administered. So that’s two useful diagnostic tools that are less useful in a sideline context which puts a lot of the weight on cognitive tests where a good baseline may not exist if the player sandbagged it or simply hasn’t completed one recently. There are a newer class of “objective” tests that look at things like eye movement or reaction time that would be less susceptible to player interference and require less subjective judgement but the research on those tests is not very thorough yet. Some of the literature on this if anyone is curious. https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/2059700218784826 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5384821/ https://scholarworks.umt.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=11975&context=etd Oh, and also the guy who lead the CISG, which created the concussion guidelines that most sports and clinical practitioners follow, stepped down recently due to allegations of plagiarism and shoddy work: https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.th...rt-paul-mccrory He was also sabotaged concussion research and downplayed the effects and danger of head trauma: https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.th...-never-appeared
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Sep 30, 2022 16:48
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Keep in mind players are (almost certainly) encouraged to eat poo poo on their baseline tests.
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Sep 30, 2022 16:56
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fsif posted:Ripping off a Reddit post so grain of salt this but… That’s egregious as hell. What’s the point of this UNC, then? Record keeping? Why give them no power?
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Sep 30, 2022 17:53
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sounds like they set it up to allow the team doctor, who has the strongest incentives to gently caress over the players, to determine whether the player can go. it should be the opposite, the UNC can say no-go, then they don't go back in. if they say "go" but then the team doctor who has familiarity with the player says "no-go" then the player sits. basically the process should require absolutely agreement from both for the player to go back in, the protocol should default to taking the player out if any of the associated medical staff deems it necessary. basically everyone has to opt in to letting the player back on the field instead of opting in to taking them out. also for the love of god find some other way to structure medical support for teams away from team doctors. they should all be NFLPA doctors who do not get paid by or report to ownership. if the military has taught me anything its that a medical staff that's designed to get you back to work tends to choose short term symptom management over long term recovery and cures every loving time
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Sep 30, 2022 17:54
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Anime Store Adventure posted:I get your idea, and I hope I’m wrong, but I just get a poo poo vibe from him. I don’t follow the dolphins beyond “team the Bills will play twice” yet in the past few weeks I can’t watch a single NFL broadcast without this dude being the main character for way too long. He’s got some loving weird rear end “practical sarcasm” without being any meaningfully different from ancient poo poo coaches in his behavior. I feel like the NFL likes him because he can be the template for this era’s Bellichek but that they can clip into a 10 second Twitter video because he said a Funny. No, i completely agree with this. I’m so mad. And I’m so dumb for having a modicum of faith in professional loving physicians. I simply hoped the funny coach that came off super genuine and well spoken in person was a good dude like I thought he was. But it’s really loving tough to assume anything but “shithead” after seeing Tuas fingers like that. God man.
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Sep 30, 2022 17:56
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personally i think it's bad that the miami dolphins and the national football league have conspired to murder tua tagovailoa on national television
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Sep 30, 2022 18:04
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I thought it was a little over the line when McDaniel came out and started smacking Tua in the head with a hammer. At the very least he didn't need to remove his helmet first.
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Sep 30, 2022 18:10
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Relentlessboredomm posted:sounds like they set it up to allow the team doctor, who has the strongest incentives to gently caress over the players, to determine whether the player can go. it should be the opposite, the UNC can say no-go, then they don't go back in. if they say "go" but then the team doctor who has familiarity with the player says "no-go" then the player sits. basically the process should require absolutely agreement from both for the player to go back in, the protocol should default to taking the player out if any of the associated medical staff deems it necessary. basically everyone has to opt in to letting the player back on the field instead of opting in to taking them out. I think there’s probably a very strong bias against overruling another doctor, especially one who is basically the primary physician for the patient. Beyond the obvious conflicts of interest I think it’s just a really bad circumstance for good diagnosis: you’re pressured to make a decision very quickly, the player likely doesn’t want your help, you aren’t familiar with them as a patient, you’ve got the team doctor looking over your shouldn’t providing info that probably gives you reason to second guess yourself. A good change would probably be requiring a player who is pulled for potential head trauma to remain out for at least 15 minutes or whatever so there’s less pressure to complete the tests and get the player back out there ASAP.
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Sep 30, 2022 18:12
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YOLOsubmarine posted:I think there’s probably a very strong bias against overruling another doctor, especially one who is basically the primary physician for the patient. Beyond the obvious conflicts of interest I think it’s just a really bad circumstance for good diagnosis: you’re pressured to make a decision very quickly, the player likely doesn’t want your help, you aren’t familiar with them as a patient, you’ve got the team doctor looking over your shouldn’t providing info that probably gives you reason to second guess yourself. do a minimum of 1 quarter for them to be out if they get pulled. and yea im sure there's strong social and profession pressure to not overrule someone else. they could also not have the doctors confer. do two separate evaluations with no discussion allowed between the medical officials. the problems of groupthink, peer pressure, and bias can be worked around (to a degree) but they require a strong desire to actually want that. I still think the strongest move is to just replace all team doctors with NFLPA doctors so their loyalties are to the players not the owners
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Sep 30, 2022 18:16
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zimbomonkey posted:I thought it was a little over the line when McDaniel came out and started smacking Tua in the head with a hammer. At the very least he didn't need to remove his helmet first. Dropping an anvil on his head caused a back injury. Yes, a huge bump grew out of the top of his head and cartoon birds started flying around it, but an independent neurologist approved his return to the field. 
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Sep 30, 2022 18:23
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Lots of people itt being confused about a bug that’s actually a feature
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Sep 30, 2022 18:43
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YOLOsubmarine posted:I think there’s probably a very strong bias against overruling another doctor, especially one who is basically the primary physician for the patient. Absolutely not in neurology. Generally if neuro is consulted or involved, neuro considerations win out. Biggest exception to that is cardiology. Dolphins team doctor is an orthopedic surgeon. In a situation like this he could not be further down the give a gently caress totem pole.
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Sep 30, 2022 18:49
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FizFashizzle posted:Absolutely not in neurology. Generally if neuro is consulted or involved, neuro considerations win out. Biggest exception to that is cardiology. This makes the protocol even more mind boggling
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Sep 30, 2022 18:52
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FizFashizzle posted:Absolutely not in neurology. Generally if neuro is consulted or involved, neuro considerations win out. Biggest exception to that is cardiology. Maybe in a normal clinical setting. But would that still be the same in the blue tent? I'm skeptical.
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Sep 30, 2022 18:52
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Impossibly Perfect Sphere posted:Maybe in a normal clinical setting. But would that still be the same in the blue tent? I'm skeptical. Yeah I have no idea what goes on in there or what their independent neurologist involved is doing. If we’re being honest, if their license was on the line no neurologist would ever send someone back in. FizFashizzle fucked around with this message at 18:58 on Sep 30, 2022 |
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Sep 30, 2022 18:56
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Impossibly Perfect Sphere posted:Under normal circumstances for a normal person how hard is it to determine accurately if someone had a concussion or not? I've been knocked unconscious twice in the last 15 years. First time I was very clearly concussed afterwards and was hosed up for a few weeks. Second time, I was 100% a-ok immediately afterwards and didn't have symptoms until like day 6 and then they were gone a few days later. Edit: losing consciousness is a concussion in and of itself, I just mean "clearly concussed" as I was clearly hosed up once conscious.
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Sep 30, 2022 18:59
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Amy Pole Her posted:This makes the protocol even more mind boggling How are you guys not getting it that it’s structured this way on purpose lol
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Sep 30, 2022 19:07
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The only “failure” here is Tua looking so jacked up on a solo broadcast game
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Sep 30, 2022 19:08
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A Buffer Gay Dude posted:How are you guys not getting it that it’s structured this way on purpose lol I think we all know that and agree and don’t feel an obvious point is worth restating.
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Sep 30, 2022 19:10
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FizFashizzle posted:I think we all know that and agree and don’t feel an obvious point is worth restating. You can’t call the protocol “mind boggling” when it’s been purposefully crafted to absolve everyone involved of as much responsibility as possible and let no one suffer any consequences. That’s its entire purpose, to provide cover. It’s only “mind boggling” if you’re giving the league any benefit of the doubt lol
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Sep 30, 2022 19:11
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The league has been running a 15 year “no guys, it’s fine” campaign re: head trauma that would make the cigarette and oil companies blush. Focusing at all on the process and how/whether it failed is missing the entire point. The league doesn’t give a poo poo and will adjust things the bare minimum possible for pr purposes and no one will ever get in trouble for any of this.
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Sep 30, 2022 19:18
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Congrats on being the smartest person in this thread and seeing through Roger Goodell's bullsh*t.
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Sep 30, 2022 19:20
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fsif posted:Congrats on being the smartest person in this thread and seeing through Roger Goodell's bullsh*t. thank you for censoring poo poo
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Sep 30, 2022 19:21
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It’s just funny because that’s how these things work in all facets of society. Everyone is going to discuss correcting the “process” and everyone will get together and congratulate each other for making changes to the “process” but the incentives are still there and the culture is bad and nothing will get fixed until people stop watching the NFL (which wont happen because none of you actually give a poo poo about Tua’ brain lol relative to watching footbaw)
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Sep 30, 2022 19:24
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I'm glad someone finally has the balls to tell it like it is. We've been watching the shadows flickering on the cave wall when we should have been breaking our chains to see the truth.
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Sep 30, 2022 19:26
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sweet thursday posted:I'm glad someone finally has the balls to tell it like it is. We've been watching the shadows flickering on the cave wall when we should have been breaking our chains to see the truth. Say whatever you want, you’ll keep drinking the garbage
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Sep 30, 2022 19:27
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A Buffer Gay Dude posted:It’s just funny because that’s how these things work in all facets of society. Please educate me on the non-exploitative methods of entertainment you consume.
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Sep 30, 2022 19:28
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