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I am a section chief in a National Guard artillery unit, I have recently acquired a second hat as the unit retention NCO. In my short time wearing the hat, I've had the opportunity to talk to troops who are approaching the end of their contract. A common theme I've been hearing is that they feel like no one cares about them. Obviously this disturbed me, I started talking to other troops that I normally don't have day to day interactions with to try and expand my scope of understanding to see how wide spread this issue is. In my opinion and hopefully you lot agree, that even 1 service member feeling like no one gives a poo poo, is a problem. I've spoken to my 1SG about this and am going to be leading an NCOPD session on this in December. My question to you is, how do you show you care? What has worked for you in the past, what hasn't? I know it seems like a basic leader concept, but I want to make sure I'm not wasting my time trying to reach my fellow leaders, and get them to understand the issue at hand, and motivate them to try and be better. I've got a lot of ideas of how I want to approach this, but I want to tap you lot as a resource to gather more ideas and begin to refine my message. Edit: The audience of this is E5 through E8 and probably O1-O3, to provide a bit more context.
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Oct 10, 2022 00:39
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I didn’t. I was one step removed from an amoral sociopath, and only after a decade of civilian life have I come to see the error in my ways. That’s not to say I treated my people like poo poo, quite the opposite actually, I just didn’t or didn’t show that I cared about them outside of getting the job done. Good on you.
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Oct 10, 2022 00:55
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It really isn't a matter of caring. It's treating the soldiers like humans and people. This isn't rocket science. If you are fulfilling that simple requirement, then the leaders around you are not fulfilling it. One person can't necessarily change the entire command climate for the better. Soldiers that feel no one cares about them are soldiers that are treated like poo poo. When they are treated like a person their complaints suddenly change in tone. What was "no one cares" is now specific complaints about individual actions or specific events/training. That is my bourbon assisted 2 cents.
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Oct 10, 2022 02:28
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I encouraged every nuke junior to me to not star / re-enlist. I also regularly covered for people for minor stuff and did what I could to shield individuals from having their own mistakes blow up in their face. The fact is that I didn't care though - I only kept up with 1 person from my boat and nobody from my training groups. FTN and gently caress you if you're still i n
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Oct 10, 2022 02:45
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ASAPI posted:It really isn't a matter of caring. It's treating the soldiers like humans and people. Seconding this. Also look out for the damage the "good ol boy" network is doing in promoting their buddy buddy shitbags while leaving competent people behind because they refuse to kiss cop rear end or otherwise be an actual fascist. Though that may have just been my experience. Make sure no one has 1488, 6mwe or RWDS stickers on their cars. If you notice that in the parking lot those people need to be fired. Not promoted, fired.
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Oct 10, 2022 03:09
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Something to consider- to many lower enlisted, this isn't just a job. It means something more to them, and the trust they put into the institution is abused and trashed. Leaders forget that beneath the uniform is most likely a kid in ever sense of the word. Just because they wear a uniform doesn't make them an adult. It is supposed to be up to the leaders- the adults in the room- to nurture, protect, and advocate for their guys. Those first term guys can be built up or utterly destroyed by a single 'leader'. You want your guys to stay in? Give them more than a paycheck and mandatory training. Figure out what they want, and help them. Take care of your people, they will take care of you. Once you've decided it's your career, there is a mental shift, and that's where leaders stop thinking of troops as people, and more as task fillers. That is what kills morale. That is what stops PFC Dipshit from signing up again. I'll have something more concrete later. Just brain dropping.
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Oct 10, 2022 04:19
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I approach it as a matter of respect; their time, skills, needs, concerns, and ideas all have value, and leadership at every level needs to visibly reflect that. Are long drills the norm? Are they routinely kept late because some level of commander's brief isn't finished? Does the scheduled training actually expand their skills? Do SUTAs get denied out of hand? Are AARs perfunctory? If someone has an issue, is it taken seriously and resourced appropriately? Is the Battery leadership checking up on their people during drill? Like, I get that all of that is pretty basic, and not all of it is controllable at the local level, but even a quick attaboy after a gunnery goes a long way. Also holding the AGRs accountable if personnel and pay actions aren't getting resolved with a quickness in between drills. Also also, as said above, immediately and mercilessly punting anyone with artillery anything visibly displayed on/in their car.
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Oct 10, 2022 05:41
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I will say our FTS is top notch. They address pay and benefit issues aggressively, making sure our soldiers get paid. I think the biggest problem we have is our NCO core especially the 5s are relatively young. I feel like we just need a wake up call, but I want to make sure I do it in an effective way. I appreciate the callout that it basically boils down to respect. I'm going to hammer that hard. I'm not expecting to change the world in a day, but if I can get through to the FLLs at the very least, it'll be a start in the right direction. I honestly believe that the 1SG gives a poo poo, so does our O3. The only person who I think doesn't/won't "get it" is a PSG. I know 1SG is working on him, trying to correct negative behavior and failing that getting him moved. But that takes time, unfortunately. Our prior 1SG let him run wild, more or less. I've been in the unit a long while, and know that most people do care. I think we've just gotten lax on making sure that the troops actually know it. The last few years have been rough with multiple state active duties, a good amount of (good) turnover because of promotions (that were well deserved). I honestly believe we just need to refocus on a lot of the basic leadership stuff. Any other constructive advice on how to convey the message is much appreciated.
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Oct 10, 2022 14:54
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Are you in a position to do something? Noone is going to care otherwise. Otherwise its just words. We were at PSNS in 2009 and it wasn't going well. One guy deserted, and I thought about it on several occasions. The shipyard workers were looking at me saying, "You guys need a union". I had one idiot Chief that was dictating things that I came close to blows with that was orchestrating most of the mess. I was on duty with my DIVO on a random Saturday and I just let loose. Chief got shifted to the Mess Decks by the time I got to work on Monday. I'd follow that LT into hell.
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Oct 10, 2022 14:59
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How much time are you spending around these soldiers? Are they one weekend a month types or are they full time?
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Oct 10, 2022 15:48
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Its one weekend a month. My direct reports I try and keep touch between drills without being annoying. As far as, am I in a position to change things? Yeah I think so. This is going to sound cocky but it isn't meant that way, I'm fairly well respected and my opinion carries some amount of weight. The way I see it, I'm going to try and lead the horses to water, but I cannot make them drink. I'm trying to attack it from several sides, the way I see it, I'm making an argument that we, as leaders, are failing to care for or show that we care for those we are training/mentoring/leading. Some people will respond to the emotional aspect of it. We've got at least 1 old crusty sonofabitch who thinks "we're too soft." Being blunt, he is probably 60% of the problem, as I mentioned previously. For him and those who might share a similar mindset, I'm going to try and sell it as, if we continue failing to meet the expectations of our jr enlisted, we're going to be less effective as a unit. He's the kind of guy who, in my opinion, lives out a Tom Clancy-esk fantasy when he puts on the uniform. I don't know hard numbers, but just going off of my experience, our ranks seem thin. The Army missed its recruiting goals by some 20,000 troops, the National Guard is struggling to keep people in, we need to retain who we have. But we have to make it worth their time, effort, and sacrifices. The whole point of this thread is me reaching out to get more input on how to convey this message. I cannot and will not accept that nothing I can do will change the situation. It is a defeatist mentality, which I'm struggling to over come both within myself and those who feel like no one cares about them.
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Oct 11, 2022 00:36
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Tell that crusty gently caress that attitude is exactly why the guys who are assets that leave. There is a fine line between hard and stupid. Hard is sucking up when you have to. Stupid is being hard for fun.
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Oct 11, 2022 01:09
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One of the things that sticks out in my mind the most is: Is there an open communication with a superior and if I come to you because I have a problem, are you going to make it worse for me... or are you going to help me? All of my best leaders actively asked and cared how people were doing. That led me down a path of the same when I was in- asking juniors how they were doing and helping them. Even if it's something bad - if they came to you because something went sideways, jumping straight into a punishment is not teaching a lesson, it's being an rear end in a top hat. The best example of how I showed I cared was when I had an E3 assisting an O6. In Captain's words: "He's hit a plateau in learning how to do this job. He's not getting worse... but he's not getting any better either". This led to unfortunately him only receiving a promotable on his eval (not written by myself but another E5). After trying to figure out what to do, we decided (the OIC and myself) that he should have a chance doing something simpler. He wasn't a bad kid - he was just bad for the job. He shined in a different position and was great at it. When his tour was over, his P eval was going to be his transfer eval, and that didn't sit right with me. I didn't think he should carry that with him to transfer, and also with an exam coming up, he would have less points toward advancement. His next assignment was going to be only 2 months for training so that eval was going to be his "last" eval for a stupid amount of time. I looked up the instruction on evals and figured out I could write him a special eval. I asked the OIC if he would let me do it, he agreed. Wrote him an EP eval for his efforts on improving and sent him off to training. He picked up E4 off that advancement exam he took in training. Oh just remembered one of probably the greatest things I got away with for juniors in my 7 years. The barracks staff were being straight up assholes to all our E4 and below. Some crazy rear end USMC inspection rules like not mopping the concrete outside your door. We would go in and do our inspection and they would do one as well - no loving idea why these poor kids had to have all these people in their loving rooms but whatever. We would pass their rooms because they were clean, poo poo was put away, etc. These loving civilians with nothing better to do would come in and take their loving white gloves and write these god awful nasty reports on their rooms. Every person they nailed on dumb poo poo had to muster on Saturdays for mandatory clean up of parking lots / rooms / common areas. So. loving. Stupid. ANYWAY! We could get them BAH by our OIC (O5) authorizing it, but we couldn't get them out of the barracks. The USMC wouldn't let them go. I typed up a letter to the barracks from the OIC stating all the members names in the barracks and they were being sent TAD to 29 Palms, CA for 179 days. This was very thought through: 29 Palms and 179 days because it covered enough mileage that they would have to move out of the barracks and 179 days so actual real orders wouldn't have to be written. He signed it, they checked out of the barracks and took their barracks check out sheets to PSD with BAH authorization. Put the letters in their files with a letter right in front of it cancelling the "TAD". Was decided by leadership that no new person coming in, even E1s, were getting put in those dumb rear end barracks. Hands down one of the best OICs I have ever had, dude really cared which made it really easy for me to come to him and find creative problems for a lot of crazy rear end poo poo to help out the juniors.
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Oct 11, 2022 02:01
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Thank you all for giving enough of a poo poo to give me your input. I'm gunna try my best to fight the good fight.
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Oct 12, 2022 18:54
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Behotti posted:Its one weekend a month. My direct reports I try and keep touch between drills without being annoying. It's not about being cocky, it's about being the adult in the room. Put your foot down, stick up for your folks, and get ready to take an L every so often. E: *deep breath* the problem with the Patrick Bateman VP middle management fever dream is that's what it is. During GQ one time, we wrote out the whole chain of command on a whiteboard and showed that you were hopping two pegs if you were really good. SquirrelyPSU fucked around with this message at 21:05 on Oct 12, 2022 |
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Oct 12, 2022 20:53
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Behotti posted:Thank you all for giving enough of a poo poo to give me your input. I'm gunna try my best to fight the good fight. Dont let the bastards get you down. Failing that hit them with a fuze wrench.
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Oct 12, 2022 23:42
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There was actually a really good article relevant to this in Task and Purpose featuring SMA Grinston. He seems to have a good head on this shoulders, I think Preston was the SMA when I was in and hell if I know anything he did. https://taskandpurpose.com/news/army-grinston-leadership-online/ quote:At the Association of the U.S. Army annual conference on Wednesday, Grinston was asked a question about leadership online by an audience member and pointed back to Army command policy which says leaders should “do what is right to prevent abusive treatment of others,” and that “[f]ailure to do so brings discredit on the Army.” At least if someone gives you poo poo you could always quote the Sergeant Major of the Army. Kinda shuts most people up. bulletsponge13 posted:Tell that crusty gently caress that attitude is exactly why the guys who are assets that leave. I wanted to point out that I do believe it is possible to care and be a hard rear end. In fact, in combat related MOSs I could see it being really useful, it is just extremely hard to do. Most people can't. I had a platoon sergeant who we all hated but he would go to bat for you (well some of us). He wasn't perfect though, he definitely used the good ole boy system of which I was definitely not one. Saw plenty of poo poo heads get accolades for doing nothing while I got yelled at because the Lt put me in for an award and "you're not getting an award for doing your job." That was for being the only person to shoot back in an ambush. Maybe I am wrong I don't know. Got out and now I make good money as an engineer.
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Oct 13, 2022 22:32
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I don't disagree that there needs to be a balance. But the guys who clamor about with thar bullshit tend to A) not be able to hump a ruck and B) confuse PTSD with personality.
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Oct 13, 2022 22:47
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Make yourself approachable. If your guys have a problem that they need to deal with and have the capacity to but don't know how help them. If they have a problem that you need to deal with make it a priority.
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Oct 18, 2022 13:29
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bulletsponge13 posted:Tell that crusty gently caress that attitude is exactly why the guys who are assets that leave. Being hard for no reason, I wanna note, is why 90% of retirees have blown out knees and lower backs thanks to asinine PT programs for the sake of 'toughening them up'. The right thing for anyone in leadership, be it business or military, to do: be the pushback when someone wants to make your peoples' lives hard for no useful reason. It's good for them as people, and good for the org keeping talent.
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Oct 19, 2022 04:30
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The Army lost me with just one incident, really. A friend in my platoon killed himself in an extremely violent way. He was being medboarded. His body was hosed from deployment and years of football. He had had multiple concussions prior to getting hit by IEDs. Cognitively hosed. So, why was he even still at the unit? He wasn’t really capable of work, but they still rode his rear end hard and one day it broke him. The following Monday after the weekend, we had a formation and the very first thing out of our commander’s mouth was that he had performed a review of leadership and found that no one saw this coming and that no one was responsible or to blame for the tragedy yadda yadda. Which was obviously a lie, but that his primary concern was avoiding responsibility really said it all. So what do you learn from that? Idk man. Someone else in the thread said it well, remember that most of the people in uniform are basically kids and parents across the country gave you their children with trust in the institutions to build them up, and these institutions do not deserve any trust whatsoever. My time in the Army reminded me a lot of my childhood actually which was filled with domestic violence. If you want to do good in that environment you are going to have work really hard to create a space and a culture in defiance of institutionalized military norms. Bellum fucked around with this message at 21:51 on Oct 23, 2022 |
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Oct 23, 2022 21:47
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It's a big question. Here are some thoughts based on my experiences in a similar outfit: From most to least important: - Fixing structural issues: Not getting paid. Abuse. Transfers and admin actions delayed or not happening. - Pushing beyond the basics: Stimulating training. NCOs can put effort into memorable lessons. Management can find unique locales, pull in arms of service you don't normally work with, or try different training formats. Keep mandatory trainings low key and do some social stuff after working hours. Getting people on the courses they want to do. Getting people onto exchanges, trips and competitions. The crew has survived a pandemic and stayed in, if your commander hasn't given them a shout at this point they drat well should. - Espirit de corps: Only after everything else is fixed. No one is worried about sports if their pay is unreliable. If everything else is right then people start forming groups for fitness, social stuff, it should be encouraged when it appears. Beware of turning peoples leisure time into mandatory fun, though.
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Oct 24, 2022 02:15
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Actually talking to people before assuming they were just loving up. I had a guy who went from being a good soldier (and kind of the class clown of the platoon) to being sour and pissed off practically overnight. My PSG wanted his head on a platter. After PT I caught up to him and just asked him what was going on. Turns out he knocked up his girlfriend and all of his post-Army plans (college, etc) went to poo poo. I obviously couldn't fix anything, but the fact that someone bothered to talk to him man to man helped him out. My PSG was a lazy dickhead by the way.
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Jan 16, 2023 14:15
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the way I comb my hair
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Jan 19, 2023 14:15
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