Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us money per month for bills, and since we don't believe in showing ads to our users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
 
WarpedLichen
Aug 14, 2008


cinci zoo sniper posted:

https://twitter.com/maxseddon/status/1579883965879848960

Much of this has been mentioned already in the thread, but the piece does tie it all into a cogent narrative.

So is it normal to have a guy in high command have two prison stints? I guess it's stuff early in his career but it just seems so weird to have a a culture that glamorizes criminals.

Also really weird to have an infantry/tank guy get put in charge of the airforce for some reason?

But following the NY times article citations on the guy:
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/08/world/europe/russia-ukraine-general-sergei-surovikin.html

Led me to this interesting report on Russian war readiness from 2019:
https://jamestown.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/Russias-Military-Strategy-and-Doctrine-web-1.pdf

Some fun quotes of how badly the Russians were prepared even back then in Chapter 11 that are no surprise considering the situation we see today:

quote:

Defense ministry statements suggested that the reservists called up to take part in the June 2016 snap exercises were incorporated into pre-existing brigades and battalions. This contradicts years of statements by military officials insisting that all Russian units are fully manned at all times. As such, this means that a functioning system of reserves in the Armed Forces did not exist.

quote:

Now defense ministry leaders insist they need 16,000 new graduates each year. In contrast, the number of Russian troops has not doubled. Therefore, the only explanation for this sudden need to recruit twice as many officers is the excess number of lieutenants required to fill out the Russian military’s new skeleton units. In fact, the staff of these divisions consists mostly of officers. These types of divisions are appropriate if one’s goal is to report to the president about the increasing power of the Russian army. To establish such new “paper” divisions, one needs only several thousand officers, not hundreds of thousands of additional privates.

quote:

If Putin is not bluffing, these statements show that he and his military advisers are ignoring reality. The domestic defense industry arguably cannot cope with the tasks set by the Kremlin due to evident difficulties with the mass production of weapons.

I always do enjoy some of these more historical reports and seeing how they compare/contrast against the present. Apologies if I'm just regurgitating well known things.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

WarpedLichen
Aug 14, 2008


Feliday Melody posted:

Is it a modern western thing where having been to prison once often ruins your life forever?

Reading history about famous people. Back in ye olden days, it seems that everyone did a tour in prison at one point or another and no one cared.

I guess its one thing to me if you got put in prison for protesting and then become a famous politician and its another when you're put in prison for illegal arms trade and then continue getting promoted up the ranks in the army.

But maybe the judicial process is different enough and this is just a lockup before the trial that never happened.

WarpedLichen
Aug 14, 2008


Ynglaur posted:

If India and China want to be seen as global leaders, they need to start having opinions on questions such as "should one country genocide another country".

I'm not 100% sure why that would be a necessary thing for them except if you mean India and China should also embrace the Western perspective on the world.

WarpedLichen
Aug 14, 2008


I thought power infrastructure has been under attack for a while now? Is that a factor for the upcoming winter for the civilian population?

Cold weather gear is one thing, being able to keep warm at home is another.

Maybe most places have wood fired stoves or some other backup.

WarpedLichen
Aug 14, 2008


I would also assume the $5000/month option isn't just bandwidth based. Mobility terminals for satellite internet require more computing power because you're establishing a link with a moving target. Usually that's because for residential, you just park a beam over a highly populated area and let a lot of people use it. Over the ocean for maritime and aircraft with nobody else around, you got to move that beam with the target and swap them to another satellite/beam if they leave that area. You want as a narrow and accurate a beam as you can because you can't get enough beams to cover the whole ocean and if you do you're wasting a lot of potential bandwidth in the middle of nowhere.

It seems like a huge reach to say every terminal in Ukraine requires that level of support because it is fundamentally not the same. I could see making that argument if Ukraine was previously not covered by Starlink (deemed economically important enough to have coverage at all) - but if you have a bunch of paying users I'm not sure why that would be the case.

WarpedLichen
Aug 14, 2008


Tuna-Fish posted:

There are some added costs of roaming to SpaceX (again, the system is highly directional, so it always needs to know exactly where you are), but certainly not ~$5k per month.

You would absolutely be surprised at how much even an hour of satellite can cost for a mobile target. I've seen charges of $80/hr for an aircraft (different satellite different time granted) for example. You're basically asking for a beam that could service a lot of people for your personal use. Starlink is different because obviously its a giant network of satellites so some from of tracking costs are baked in, but fundamentally it's a lot of extra work.

WarpedLichen
Aug 14, 2008


Ynglaur posted:

Yes, though it's not a paradigm shift. The US Army had Internet access at the battalion/squadron level in 2003. By late 2003 we had pushed it down to the company/troop/battery level in some places. And that was without mobile phone infrastructure. Bandwidth has certainly increased since then--as have the demands placed upon it with things such as real-time streaming video--but I doubt the US military was alone in pushing networks to front-line units in the past 20 years.

Yeah, the US also has other tactical links for sharing battlefield info from the front:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Link_16
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Data_Link

So I'm not 100% sure what the benefit of having the internet in particular is besides being able to shitpost.

WarpedLichen
Aug 14, 2008


MechanicalTomPetty posted:

Didn’t lend-lease go into effect on October 1st?

Lend-lease allows Biden to transfer military equipment but as far as I know Ukraine is also extremely dependent on foreign money to keep the lights on (ex: paying the soldiers).

WarpedLichen
Aug 14, 2008


Rigel posted:

They haven't been getting cash from the usa. Our aid has been weapons and munitions, and we can keep "lending" it if congress won't let us give it away.

That just seems untrue? Take the below for instance.

https://www.usaid.gov/news-information/press-releases/aug-08-2022-united-states-contributes-45-billion-support-government-ukraine

https://www.ifw-kiel.de/topics/war-against-ukraine/ukraine-support-tracker/

That lists US non military support to Ukraine at 15.8 billion euros?

WarpedLichen
Aug 14, 2008


SourKraut posted:

Mechanical equipment fails at times. Mechanical equipment with poor maintenance records are especially at risk of failure.

It really can be just that.

Most things in weapons are designed to mechanically jam in failure conditions rather than just fall off. Usually there's some special jettison mode if you really wanted to get rid of something which can involve squibs going off to break those mechanical linkages.

But then again, it's the Russians so who knows.

WarpedLichen
Aug 14, 2008


slurm posted:

With Iranians on the ground in Ukraine now, why shouldn't the US strike drone factories/military bases/critical infrastructure inside Iran? It seems like they have none of the defenses Russia would (which is basically just the threat of nukes) and a campaign to just basically destroy power/water/transportation, petroleum infrastructure, and dehouse defense workers could be conducted with impunity with none of the concerns of invasion or occupation.

Are you being serious? That seems like a gross overreaction, I'm not sure why you would advocate for that unless you really want people dead for no reason.

WarpedLichen
Aug 14, 2008


Cicero posted:

It's not exactly clear why it's considered okay for Iran to have people in Russia or Ukraine directly helping with the war effort, but if the US does the same thing that's a huge escalation.

Really I just object in principle to the idea that doing the same thing being done to you is an "escalation", like if you get punched out of nowhere you gotta just sit there and take it because fighting back would be "escalating". I think the restriction on HIMARS being used to attack military targets in Russia is stupid for the same reason.

There are enough American nationals in Ukraine acting on a volunteer basis providing training. I'm sure if Ukraine buys any fancy new weapons systems there will be American contractors on site providing training and maintenance.

I hesitate to call Iranian support personnel any more escalatory than the drone sales in the first place. It's standard operating procedure when it comes to sales of weapon systems with any degree of sophistication.

Starting a war on this front would be dumb unless you're pulling a Bush II and just want any excuse to start a conflict.

WarpedLichen
Aug 14, 2008


Cicero posted:

I mean every country puts intelligence officers everywhere even in peacetime. That's not the same thing at all.

As for official military helping with logistics within Ukraine, no I really doubt that's happening. So far they seem to be careful not to send any official military personnel into Ukraine itself.

Edit: I mean direct help, not, like, a military office in Kyiv helping to coordinate high level things.

Do we have sources besides the US DoD briefing on Iranian military personnel?

I mean "official" is doing a lot of heavy lifting here. If the Russian government is getting some contractors from the Iranian companies who manufactures the drones on site to provide support, that's what I'm expecting and roughly equivalent to US ex-military volunteers acting alongside the Ukrainian forces. If it's like the Iranian drone air wing actually performing the attacks, then yeah, that's being an active belligerent.

WarpedLichen
Aug 14, 2008


GSV gently caress Your God posted:

I don't think public polling is indicative of a western breaking point. These representatives simply are the usual suspects (as you say).

I do think polling is indicative that the public in America is more concerned about domestic pain rather than Ukraine and that's not really unexpected for anybody.

WarpedLichen
Aug 14, 2008


MikeC posted:

I don't see what is wrong with the letter other than that it assumes Biden hasn't already tried from time to time to find some sort of negotiated solution. All it is really saying is that it would be better if the war ended sooner rather than later while reaffirming the stance that the US should never impose or pressure Ukraine into a settlement that they are not happy with. Is it redundant that what they are asking for is already being tried? Yes. But I don't see anything in the contents of the letter which would make it "stupid".

I think that's why people are saying it's stupid? Nothing really new but gives something for propagandists to spin in bad faith.

If you're trying to build your cred by pushing for a peaceful resolution, the weakest of letters to Biden isn't really it.

WarpedLichen
Aug 14, 2008


FishBulbia posted:

As opposed to saying "we will never negotiate"? That wouldn't get spinned?

I don't think anybody is asking them to say anything at all, so there's no reason a statement had to be made in the first place.

I don't think there's anything wrong with keeping a channel open for negotiations, but as others have already pointed out, the previous stance was that Putin must negotiate with Ukraine for peace and not the US. I don't think Biden can push Putin to the negotiations table any more than he has without escalating the war more, so it's about as useful to the real situation as asking Santa for the war to end. The only real thing Biden can do is pressure Ukraine to the negotiations by conceding to Russia, but they specifically say to not do that.

Its just a dumb political move because I can't see what side they are trying to appeal to. If you want news coverage you might as well write a strongly worded letter to Putin about ending the war for all the good that's going to do. Its very reminiscent of the early Macron statements about diplomacy, where it's wishful thinking that achieves nothing except make you look like a tool.

WarpedLichen
Aug 14, 2008


mlmp08 posted:

What do you mean by this?

Is Biden asking the progressive caucus for opinions on what to do during the war? Are they providing an idea on how to achieve peace? Is there somebody in the administration who will slap their head and go geez, framework for peace, I can't believe nobody thought of that before?

As far as I know, nobody asked the progressive caucus for a plan, so there is no need to put out a public facing statement on the subject except to make it clear what your positions are for next election. Which is fine, but it seems like a weak statement to make.

WarpedLichen
Aug 14, 2008


mlmp08 posted:

Congress members often speak or write without being directed to by the president.

They're perfectly entitled to say anything they want, whenever they want. Just because they are entitled to put their foot in their mouth doesn't mean they have to do it.

Not sure what you're trying to say.

AOC can post on twitter saying "I like little kids." It's allowed but it can still be dumb.

WarpedLichen
Aug 14, 2008


I wish I had a crystal ball as accurate as these pundits, probably could make a killing on the markets.

I like how every country is battling recession fears (because guess what we live in a global economy and disruptions affect everybody) and people are trying to pick winners and losers that probably won't be apparent until at minimum 5 years from now.

WarpedLichen
Aug 14, 2008


By what measure of renewables are we really talking about anyway?

It's kinda interesting because the percentage of renewables in terms of electrical power in CA and in Germany are actually comparable.

CA looks like its at ~33% of total electrical power https://www.energy.ca.gov/data-reports/energy-almanac/california-electricity-data/2021-total-system-electric-generation and Germany is at ~41.1% https://www.umweltbundesamt.de/en/topics/climate-energy/renewable-energies/renewable-energies-in-figures

Kinda not apples to apples, but renewables really isn't the catch all answer to economic woes especially when heating and manufacturing are considered.

WarpedLichen
Aug 14, 2008


Cicero posted:

In a lot of more left leaning discussions on the internet, the framing is that the US is pants on head idiotic policy-wise compared to (Western) Europe. While this is frequently accurate, it somewhat conflicts with the US going from strength to strength economically: if the US keeps picking poo poo policies, why is it doing so much better in terms of productivity?

And talking about natural resources doesn't make much sense especially in this context, California isn't really a petro or mining state, its economy is driven more by tech and media, often tech and media that is successful internationally.

I mean how much of that is because of global hegemony and being the world's reserve currency? Effectively unlimited borrowing is pretty good for the economy.

WarpedLichen
Aug 14, 2008


Dick Ripple posted:

Like I said, there are obvious problems with these proposals.
But to answer your question directly said elections/referendums would have international backing and oversight, and would happen after Russia removes all their forces out of Ukraine as defined by the pre 2014 borders and in addition there here would be no stopping of military or other assistance to Ukraine. How likely would this to occcur? I would give it a non 0% chance, but not much greater than that long as Putin is in charge. It is mostly a thought experiment on what sort of ceasefire deals Russia could offer that would be supported by NATO/US and their populations but not Ukraine, and how this could cause reduced support for Ukraine.

Did you mean this to be exactly what Elon proposed on twitter before the idea got shat on by everybody?

If you believe Elon did get fed the idea by the Kremlin, a likely next thought should be if Putin would have made moves to actually make it an official offer if the reception wasn't overwhelmingly negative. This seems incredibly unlikely to me, 99% he was just throwing bs to weaken western resolve and get it into the public consciousness.

I agree that there is a non-zero chance of political fuckery happening as the war drags on, but we're likely years out at this point. I'm honestly a bit frustrated that Western messaging hasn't been that this conflict will likely last a decade and that the public should prepare for the long haul, but asking for individual sacrifice for the greater good just seems untenable for modern democracies.

WarpedLichen
Aug 14, 2008


Mooseontheloose posted:

Whoever decided to send that letter needs a talking to then.

I don't think the letter being from June/July makes it any less dumb. The lack of content or meaningful call to action is what makes it dumb. That it got picked up by the media closer to the election as a political weapon is just taking advantage of its inherent dumbness.


Mr. Smile Face Hat posted:

I had posted a reply on this page to the post you’re quoting. It addresses the “easy mode”.

Not to continue the derail for much longer or to be a crazy conspiracy theorist, but Bernake has downplayed the role of being the reserve currency since 2016: https://www.brookings.edu/blog/ben-bernanke/2016/01/07/the-dollars-international-role-an-exorbitant-privilege-2/. I'm just not fully convinced that economists are right (granted they are far more likely to be right than me) because its so hard to measure and we don't have a world where the US isn't the reserve currency to compare against. We do know there are some supposed perks and influence because other countries like China do desire a piece of the pie.

WarpedLichen
Aug 14, 2008


OddObserver posted:

It has an October date stamp, and was advertised online by Progressive Caucus yesterday. It's not something that was sent in June and just noticed now.

Thanks, now I'm even more confused by this, so uh, congrats to them I guess.

WarpedLichen
Aug 14, 2008


Athas posted:

I understand that Wagner is also a political player, but at this point in the war, is it really contributing anything useful in a military sense that the regular Russian forces couldn't do?

There's always an element of organizational inertia to consider. Even if it is a purely useless division, it would take effort to fold the organization back into the official Russian army. I think one could easily argue that Prigozhin's antics are weakening the overall war effort, but I would assume the people in charge of Wagner would prefer to have their own little fiefdom.

WarpedLichen
Aug 14, 2008


Herstory Begins Now posted:

Also I don't think it gets remarked on enough: this war is being used by Russian MoD as a way of getting rid of a ton of people that it either finds undesirable (prisoners) or potential rivals (Chechens, Wagner especially, PMCs in general). A lot of the accounts of how the least desirable troops are used describe stuff that is everything short of just machine gunning them yourself, eg 'assault this field with no artillery or air support, little ammo, and no there's no intel about where or how many enemy might be around.' What wagner is doing with the conscripted prisoners is particularly egregious in its brutality and lack of value in military terms.

We sure that's just not how the Russian military operates in general? Would be curious to see if there's any correlation between units being told to do suicidal things and where the troops came from.

WarpedLichen
Aug 14, 2008


Paladinus posted:

They say that democracy doesn't exist in other countries and it's basically voting stations made of straw all the way down, so Russia would be wise not even to pretend.

That's the weirdest part of the Russian sham elections. Its a weird combo of utter disdain for actual democratic process but the almost meticulous adherence to the performance.

WarpedLichen
Aug 14, 2008


Crosby B. Alfred posted:

Russian Armed forces aren't large enough to even hold pre-2014 territory.
Even if Europe and America stopped supporting Ukraine it seems unlikely, he'd be able to win.

I think those are big assumptions to make.

I would assume the strategy is to wait until a moment of relative strength and then negotiate a cease-fire to lock in current territorial gains. Everybody is calling him out on the bullshit, but that doesn't mean he won't try it anyway.

WarpedLichen
Aug 14, 2008


Pope Hilarius II posted:

(emphasis mine) This is also an ideology, though. Many people don't perceive it as such because it's presented as the 'neutral', base state of modern civilisations' decision-making.

I'm not even sure that's true, you can't tell me the US wars in the Middle East aren't ideologically motivated because they sure don't make sense on the value scale (except for some corrupt PMCs).

WarpedLichen
Aug 14, 2008



I feel like anti imperialism as a concept is part of the current international order Putin is against. The view would be similar to WW2 Japan sentiments, where western powers used imperialism to gain power and then used their power to prevent any others from doing the same to challenge that power. Pulling up the ladder. So in essence, the west should let dictators in other regions go unchallenged because mounting any challenge would be hypocrisy.

But you know live by the sword, die by the sword. If you want to challenge the current world order you would have to expect people to step in. It also makes me question why anybody would want to support a challenger with so little to offer. I mean kleptocracy and revanchism seems to be all Putin has.

WarpedLichen
Aug 14, 2008


HUGE PUBES A PLUS posted:

Also, the British did it.

Wouldn't be surprised at this point, not sure why Russia has the British are being picked as the shadowy masterminds behind all this, but it is a refreshing throw back from the usual suspects.

Edit: I wasn't sure if that was tongue in cheek but I guess the Brits really did get their names thrown in:

quote:

Taking into account the terrorist act carried out by the Kyiv regime on October 29 this year with the participation of British specialists against ships of the Black Sea Fleet and civilian vessels involved in ensuring the security of the grain corridor, the Russian side suspends participation in the implementation of agreements on the export of agricultural products from Ukrainian ports.

Those darn British specialists.

WarpedLichen fucked around with this message at 16:25 on Oct 29, 2022

WarpedLichen
Aug 14, 2008


KitConstantine posted:

They called the strike on Sevanstopol a terrorist attack
https://twitter.com/christogrozev/status/1586355243284975618?t=UtItZuBnorV_EIJvdyO5mQ&s=19
So the delusion continues

They know exactly what they're doing by using and diluting the term. Now its both sides calling each other terrorists, bypassing the fact that the Russians bomb cities and civilian infrastructure while the Ukrainians are attacking military docks.

But you see, war is hell, and both sides do terrible things.

WarpedLichen
Aug 14, 2008


Owling Howl posted:

https://twitter.com/TpyxaNews/status/1585279195038588929?t=Q79j2ju2RxAUtQZtN58BSg&s=19

Possibly bullshit. At any rate I feel like you'd want a system which can chase the Iranian drones down which these seem unlikely to be able to do.

I would bet money that the picture is bullshit.

https://www.smart-shooter.com/products/

The implication is that Ukranians got the SMASH Dragon system, which is some sort of automated aiming device that completed live firing tests in January. The drone pictured is probably some engineering setup they used to get through their internal trials and used for press releases. Maybe some RnD outfit got a couple demo units to make the press release technically true (which looks to be small automated gimbal you can put whatever weapon you want on) but I highly doubt there's operational units being deployed in Ukraine anytime soon.

WarpedLichen
Aug 14, 2008


https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/national-security/biden-lost-temper-zelenskyy-phone-call-ukraine-aid-rcna54592

I would have thought that any more forward progress for this year would be pure bonus politically speaking but it seems there's some push back. Also interesting to consider is if there's any blowback from winning too hard too fast and reducing will to send aid because of the you're already doing fine effect.

WarpedLichen
Aug 14, 2008


KitConstantine posted:

The phone conversation in the linked article happened in June, for reference

Yeah, it's quite annoying when they do that and I should've pointed that out, that's why I was trying to speak more to the part in Oct:

quote:

Concerns about fading support for Ukraine are also driving the current offensives, according to a defense official and a former official, as Ukraine tries to show momentum on the battlefield to encourage the flow of more weapons.

On Oct. 12, Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin convened a meeting of the Ukraine Contact Group in Brussels, a periodic gathering of allies, to discuss how to get more weapons and equipment into Ukrainian military hands. While past meetings have yielded assistance from ammunition to missile launchers, this month’s meeting took on new urgency, according to three defense officials familiar with the discussions.

Though again, how much of that is retroactive framing I don't know, because I didn't remember any out of the ordinary coverage when the contact group was meeting.

WarpedLichen
Aug 14, 2008


Morrow posted:

They're burning through fifty years of stockpiling for the Third World War. That's why they seem to have immense equipment reserves to burn and an open question is at what point do they need to reach so far back in their stocks that quality declines sharply and they cease to be functional.

Yeah, it's quite funny how large relatively conservative estimates of Russian tank numbers are.

https://kyivindependent.com/national/how-many-tanks-does-russia-really-have

This article uses the Military Balance 2021 (2021 assumes Russians mothballed all the Soviet era tanks like the T-62 which are seeing service now) and 2016 and arrives at an estimated 17,300 tanks. Oryx is tracking 1420 tanks destroyed right now?

So yeah, 12 more years of tank losses without even building any new tanks by those assumptions.

Edit: want to stress these are not good assumptions

WarpedLichen fucked around with this message at 01:43 on Nov 3, 2022

WarpedLichen
Aug 14, 2008


Anybody seen any coverage on where the displaced civilians from Kherson are actually going? My admittedly weak googling hasn't found any coverage, not sure if there any telegram posts on the subject,.

WarpedLichen
Aug 14, 2008


Paladinus posted:

Based on reporting in Russian media, they mostly go down South to Crimea, but also other 'neighbouring Russian regions'. From how previous 'evacuations' from occupied territories worked, a lot of people first went to a makeshift filtration camp somewhere deep in LDNR, then to some transfer camp in a relatively good shape for a photo op (there's one in Jankoy in Crimea), and from there they were spread across most Russian regions as far as Primorsky Krai in the far East. Neighbouring regions simply don't have the capacity to accommodate hundreds of thousands of people, so it's safe to assume the same is going to happen here.

Thanks for the insight, I was hopeful that there were local camps, but it makes sense to move them to areas less affected by the war (though I have my doubts about the state being able to provide adequate support for the displaced). Wonder if any of them will be able to make it back home after all this is over.

WarpedLichen
Aug 14, 2008


Heliogabalos posted:

This and the volume of water in the Dniepr and the loss of the Aral Sea has had me wondering if this war is the first true war about fresh water. Among other things to be sure, but I suspect the Russians also want control of all of this water.

Humanity has probably fought over access to fresh water since the dawn of time.

http://www.justmeans.com/blogs/water-wars-fighting-over-earths-most-precious-fluid

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

WarpedLichen
Aug 14, 2008


https://www.defensenews.com/pentagon/2022/11/04/us-netherlands-go-dutch-to-refurbish-czech-tanks-for-ukraine/

for twitter reporting:

https://twitter.com/Tendar/status/1588568511714324483

the original press event:
https://www.defense.gov/Multimedia/Videos/videoid/863236/

Not sure if this is old news, don't think I've seen it posted yet. New batch of support, headlines seem to be about 90 T-72s.

That's quite a bit from the Czech Republic, I think Poland has sent at least 240 tanks so far?

If you want to read about somebody nerd out about tank specs this is a fun read:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/sebastienroblin/2022/10/28/czech-super-t-72m4-tanks-seen-headed-towards-ukraine/?sh=668a757f3ce7

There's so many flavors of weapons in Ukraine I have no idea how they're doing logistics at all.

WarpedLichen fucked around with this message at 20:53 on Nov 4, 2022

  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5