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Anyone can pick up a guitar, sit down at a piano, or buy a fancy new toy that does horrible things to the common sine wave. Anyone can enjoy and immerse themselves in the process of eliciting sound from their instruments and nod their heads along as they explore. And, of course, anyone can make music of any length, any intricacy, and any meaning. But going from touching an instrument to making a discrete, individual thing is not as easy. There are no mere formulas - no recipes for EPs, sonatas, soundtracks, or video game BGM. There are almost no rules, and what rules are present are meant to be broken. There isn’t even objectively “good” or “correct” music, both in harmony and in form. Music is not like mathematics or science. Structure and patterns are imposed upon music, rather than being inherent to it. Everyone is born able to make music. No one is born able to compose or arrange. And even if you learn how, they’re just really good guesses about what might work, not laws of the universe. That leaves the beginner and the journeyman at a loss. quote:This sound is nice, but… Well, answering and discussing questions like the above is why we’re all here.  This thread is a catch-all discussion on everything but the sound itself:
This all can and will change over time, so expect this OP to be updated eventually. Post about the songs you’ve written, albums you’ve released, cool tricks you’ve pulled off, mistakes you’ve made, structure you’ve used, and insight you’ve gained. Tell us the what, the how, the why, and the why not. That is how you learned to do all this, isn’t it? So let’s share the wealth!
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Nov 1, 2022 17:47
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Reserved in case I need a second post.
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Nov 1, 2022 17:48
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Let me start by what drove me to post this thread in the first place. I submitted an entry to the 2022 Halloween toxx. The only rule was the use of synthesizers and samples of a certain GOP president. I wrote it haphazardly and didn’t bother to mix or master it. No thought was given to what sounds should or should not be in it - I just dumped in whatever I found or made, and my deletions were effectively random or “it just sucks”. No thought was given to the sections of the track - I just started and stopped instruments and loops when I felt like it. No thought was given to a specific genre - it can really only be described as “electronic”, which is incredibly vague. No thought was given to what sounds should or should not play at the same time - the harmonic spectrum is an amorphous blob at best, and the dynamics are inconsistent and unappealing. No thought was given to consistent theming and patterning - everything’s vaguely in the same key and is otherwise chaotic. This track is a good example of what I lack most: structure and process. I’m the kind of person who works best within a framework and gets confused and overwhelmed when being freeform. I am a follower, not a leader. Dear goons, how did you write your tracks? Everyone follows some sort of plan. What should I do to both improve my confidence in what I write and establish a framework and structure for myself? I have no clear conception of what should or should not be done. Any advice is well appreciated, and I would love to hear you talk about yourself and your own creations!
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Nov 1, 2022 18:06
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Thanks for making this thread. I have a large graveyard of Guitar Pro files of stuff I have made, some of it a single riff, some of it a couple of minutes of mostly complete(as in several tracks of guitar/drum/bass/vocal etc) song, yet I've never written a full song ever. I don't have anything to add now, but in the future I'm glad I can have a place to pester people about compositional advice. Can technically do it in the guitar thread or theory thread, but other topics tend to take over a lot. e: to contribute a little content, here's a lovely video of a riff in Phrygian Dominant still mostly in the noodling phase I think I want to do something with, although my brain is doing that thing where its telling me it's already a song and I'm stealing it. Mostly talking about the middle part, the beginning and end I was just messing around testing a new speaker I got for my helix. I'd probably tone the harmonics down a good bit for the actual non-noodling version. I have some of it transcribed out in guitar pro, but I'm not sure if I should continue fleshing the riff out next, think on the structure of the song in general, or start working on an actual beat for that part and playing it in time. Pretty sure everyone does it different. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2FosjyAbD8 Drunk Driver Dad fucked around with this message at 01:45 on Nov 3, 2022 |
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Nov 3, 2022 00:37
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I’m glad you’re enjoying the thread! Feel free to post anytime. I just realized that not every song or track starts with rhythm/percussion. As in, not everything follows the flow of enabling the following layers in order: kick, then hi hat, then snare, then bassline, then countermelody, then melody, then other percussion. That progression is mostly a thing in house music, and house music is a touchstone because I play and compose with the synthesizer. In fact, no music follows any kind of prescribed pattern, not even the music makers I admire. Yuzo Koshiro likes his own elaborate form and structure, Toby Fox tends to be melody and harmony first, Trent Reznor varies immensely. Music is m made-up bullshit in the end and has no inherent meaning or structure - it can be whatever and still be great! But for some reason, I’m very stuck to a particular recipe or waterfall-style development when I try to make music. I don’t yet understand why. I think part of the problem is that I don’t see a “path”, the next steps to take, when I see a blank canvas. I do not yet understand exactly what I am doing or why. At the very least, I am far too limited in what music I hear, what music I play, and how I understand music. I have a lot of thinking to do on the matter.
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Nov 3, 2022 19:04
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Yeah, I'm currently in the process of figuring out a pattern that works for me. I'm to the point where I can come up with a decent 16-bar or so chorus type section, with enough instrumentation I can vary it up for additional choruses, but having trouble coming up with a complementary structure for a verse type thing. I know not all music follows that structure closely, if at all, but I figure it's a good place to build a foundation for arrangement before branching off into other formats.
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Nov 3, 2022 20:13
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Over the last decade, the largest thing I learned is the use of space in your parts/composing. The first record my band released is just... overwritten out the wazoo. Every part had to have a variation or something so it was never close to the same thing twice. It was fun to play, but *exhausting* to listen to on record.
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Nov 11, 2022 16:09
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Pollyanna posted:I just realized that not every song or track starts with rhythm/percussion. figuring this out was a huge step for me, even if i still usually start with guitar. anytime i'm feeling stuck, i just start playing around with a different instrument and end up coming up with something i never would have written otherwise. granted, that tends to get recorded as a voice memo on my phone so i can incorporate it into something later, but it's a good way to add some variety. i'm currently in the middle of writing an album with my band so everything in this thread is at the top of my mind, i hope more people chime in with their approaches. i think breakdowns of how people approached a song they've written are really interesting for that
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Nov 17, 2022 07:29
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Noise Machine posted:Over the last decade, the largest thing I learned is the use of space in your parts/composing. The first record my band released is just... overwritten out the wazoo. Every part had to have a variation or something so it was never close to the same thing twice. It was fun to play, but *exhausting* to listen to on record. Fersure. Don’t forget that silence is also an instrument, and an effective one when used properly. It helps to try and transcribe songs and tracks you like tracking each unique voice over time - there’s rarely a point where more than 50-70% of all instruments/sounds are playing. CaptainViolence posted:figuring this out was a huge step for me, even if i still usually start with guitar. anytime i'm feeling stuck, i just start playing around with a different instrument and end up coming up with something i never would have written otherwise. granted, that tends to get recorded as a voice memo on my phone so i can incorporate it into something later, but it's a good way to add some variety. Pretty much. It’s really easy to get caught up in “what makes music music” and internalize poo poo like “if you’re making electronic it has to be four-on-the-floor” or whatever the gently caress, but there are no real rules and breaking whatever’s left is far better than sticking to it. https://youtu.be/LvIkTbOYLRM This track starts with a guitar riff ostinato/vamp/ idk what they call it then devolves into goddamn klaxons and Jethro Tull flute and it rips. DO WHATEVER IT DOESNT FUCKEN MATTER, https://youtu.be/qX-YfuVQmX8
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Nov 21, 2022 01:15
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Some thoughts as I’m trying to fall asleep. Music justifies itself. Music has no inherent goal, target, or reason to exist. There is no right way to write music, there are no steps or paths in writing music that have not already been taken, and “success” at writing music goes so far as music being written and no further. Music’s purpose is to be, not to do. Don’t get caught on why you’re writing music, or for what purpose or goal the music is being written. That is orthogonal to music’s existence. If you are worried that your music doesn’t make sense, don’t be - no music makes sense.
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Nov 21, 2022 05:29
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InternetOfTwinks posted:Yeah, I'm currently in the process of figuring out a pattern that works for me. I'm to the point where I can come up with a decent 16-bar or so chorus type section, with enough instrumentation I can vary it up for additional choruses, but having trouble coming up with a complementary structure for a verse type thing. I know not all music follows that structure closely, if at all, but I figure it's a good place to build a foundation for arrangement before branching off into other formats. i've been thinking on this because it's something i used to have trouble with a lot. my main approach to situations like this now is to dig through all the other little snippets i've gotten down, find one that feels like it would go with the section i currently have, and the transpose it until it fits. i have such a hard time coming up with sections that fit together on the spot, so maybe that'd help you too. 90% of my songwriting is done that way anymore. something i struggle with a lot is coming up with different song structures. i fall into the same intro-verse-chorus-verse-chorus-bridge-chorus structure a lot, and i've really been trying to come up with ways to switch that up. if anyone has any tricks to mix things up, i'd love some other perspectives. noise machine mentioned using space, which i've been trying to do, but i would love to hear mpre expanded thoughts on it.
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Nov 21, 2022 07:14
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For a really basic and uninformed alternative, how about this: micro-bridge -> chorus -> intro -> verse (evoke bridge here) -> mini-intro -> chorus -> verse -> tonal shift solo (e.g. drum solo from something melodic or vice versa, light piano from distorted guitars or vice versa) -> bridge -> chorus -> mini-verse, or verse type B -> hard stop None of this makes any sense or has any goal or structure to it, and I have no idea if it “produces good music” as-is. But it’s something, and music doesn’t have to be anything other than something. Get that down exactly as someone who has no idea what good music is, and then approach it as someone who is extremely sure of what good music is. Repeat the cycle until you’re happy or go over your deadline. Pollyanna fucked around with this message at 16:20 on Nov 21, 2022 |
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Nov 21, 2022 15:10
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There's a book about architecture called "The Timeless Way of Building" by Christopher Alexander that I found very helpful in thinking about this type of stuff. Basic idea is that elements of a structure that serve towards experiential and practical ends will be aesthetically pleasing. If you allow natural patterns to come through by allowing different parts of a structure to influence each other, the outcome will be cohesive, serve it's function, and will be pleasing in a way that's hard to pin down. I find it helpful to think of a song as a building that I'm walking through, how it starts is the walkway or entrance, the first verse is the first room you encounter, etc. Maybe in one song you've been dropped by helicopter onto the roof and the song is finding your way down. Finding a way of thinking about structure really doesn't need to be very formal, IMHO, it just needs to serve the music. In summary, 
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Nov 21, 2022 16:06
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These are nice thoughts, thanks for sharing everyone. Myself, I have not thought much about any of this, and make music almost purely through "what does this do? What happens if I do x,y,z?", and try to think a lot about the results. Perhaps one day, this will develop into those natural pathways mentioned by ricecult. My lack of structure and direction is largely down to inexperience, and lack of a solid goal, other than to have fun and learn. I do have a preference bias against most sonic / structural signifiers of much of early to mid 90's dance music, and/or most pop. This has pushed me to usually choosing the weird option, when presented with a choice, like time signature, key, etc. I am, however, interested in learning about how others do their thing, and what sorts of structures are commonly used. In summary, my music is a lot like golf or skeet shooting: Way more fun for the participant, than the audience.
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Nov 21, 2022 20:06
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I don’t know what drives me to try and unlock the secrets of making music. Part of it is insecurity and anxiety in the actual act. I never know what my next move is, or should, or can be. Not knowing that chews me up. This is the biggest reason why I don’t make much more than some VCV patches these days. I want to make, to have made, and to continue to make. I also want to dispense with whatever stands in the way of those things. Part of it is a yearning to be as cool and good as the musicians I admire. I love music, not necessarily all music but a lot of it. I wish to be as good as that too. That’s not trivial to let go of, but it is important to do so. Part of the first one is what this thread is for. The rest, and the second, are addressed by something else.
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Nov 21, 2022 20:33
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For a bit of perspective, it is likely that the musicians you admire are exceptional, even amongst a group of people with significant experience and practice. It's totally fine to not be exceptional. edit: Sorry if this reads as condescending or patronizing. Those kinds of anxieties are something I also struggle with, and have found the thought I shared helpful for myself, when I catch myself falling into the trap of comparing myself to others. B33rChiller fucked around with this message at 20:44 on Nov 21, 2022 |
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Nov 21, 2022 20:41
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I prefer to think along the lines of: No-one starts out exceptional, it takes a lot of trying and failing and trying again to build up to that level. Good thing to internalize for all things in life in my experience.
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Nov 21, 2022 22:52
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Some rambling from a casual synth musician: I still haven't made the jump to composing out my songs. I make a bunch of semi-related parts all on top of each other, then fade their volumes / parameters for progression. It is fun to perform songs in this way but I am limited by what I can do with my hands in real time. I've had fun and good results when starting a song from just about any instrument. The instrument I start with tends to have the most influence on how a song will end up. Everything else ends up being a response to that. It can be fun to delete the original melody / thing I built around for a more aimless sounding song. I'm not sure how common this is to do but I force myself to finish a song when I start it. I typically work on a song for 30 minutes to 2 hours, with an average time being around 1 hour. This has allowed me to make a lot of songs very quickly. I don't make any magnum opuses but I feel like I'm still in an exploratory stage.
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Nov 21, 2022 23:57
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Pollyanna posted:Part of it is a yearning to be as cool and good as the musicians I admire. I love music, not necessarily all music but a lot of it. I wish to be as good as that too. That’s not trivial to let go of, but it is important to do so. I have a theory on this, which is that no music you make will ever be as "objectively good" to you as music made by someone else. You don't see how the sausage is made when you listen to other people's music. It just comes out as this fully realized "thing" dripping out of your speakers or headphones.
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Nov 22, 2022 00:06
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Along the lines of that reagan song thing, the one I submitted is the first arrangement I've ever come close to finishing. I've done a handful of 3 minute "jams" over the years that might count as songs but listening to them now I really don't like them. So let's stick with the idea that my reagan track is my first ever song. Arrangement has always been the hardest part of music for me, I can read and understand the advice of people that do it but it still feels like a indecipherable skill. It's so easy to set up a four bar loop of four tracks and be all "aww yeah THIS is my masterpiece" and then be unable to get past that. The instructions say to tone down the energy or pull pieces out and build up to that loop again but whenever I adjust or remove a bit the groove falls apart and I drop it and move on to the next thing. For the reagan song I went into it thinking I'd literally copy the structure of daft punk's 'around the world' (or more specifically, a live performance of it from their 2007 tour because that thing never stops building energy) and force myself to finish something. And I know no one's first anything is any good and their first 100 anythings probably won't be good either, song writing takes time and effort. But I'm curious if someone with songwriting chops might wanna take some time to nitpick where the rookie mistakes are: https://soundcloud.com/mrxzzy/trickle-down-beat Basically I don't know what I don't know.
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Nov 22, 2022 03:44
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I have a personal opinion that a lot of musicians are too fearful of writing within genre. The vast, vast majority of music created is iterations of what's gone before, and intended to follow certain feels, formats and genre traditions. Musicians often hate talking about this, I suspect because it touches on something uncomfortable about the nature of originality. If you ask musicians to describe their stuff they'll hesitate, or pick a number of totally disparate things and say its a mix of all of them (and thus its own, unique thing). I notice a lot of the time when you read interviews with successful musicians though they dont have that squeamishness, they'll say "oh yeah that song is totally my tribute to [thing]" Understanding genre gives purpose and direction to writing, it sets listener expectations which can then be fulfilled or subverted. massive spider fucked around with this message at 14:30 on Nov 22, 2022 |
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Nov 22, 2022 14:28
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massive spider posted:I have a personal opinion that a lot of musicians are too fearful of writing within genre. The vast, vast majority of music created is iterations of what's gone before, and intended to follow certain feels, formats and genre traditions. oh, i had forgotten about this, but this sort of thing was massively helpful for me to actually start writing songs! the covers we used to do for the rockstar competitions here were incredible for building the skill of picking apart how other songs were constructed, and from there i tried to write a few songs in the style of particular bands. one of the most important lessons my mentor ever taught me prior to his untimely demise was the phrase "the remix is infinite"—nothing we do is in a void, it is all informed on some level by what has come before and what we experience. the unique qualities come from having different ingredients and filtering them through ourselves. nothing solidified that better than realizing that even when i tried to write an original in someone else's style, my stink was all over it. once that idea was locked in, i felt a lot more freedom to just write and lean into different directions without any pressure to make it some perfect unique masterwork. i still write genre songs on a regular basis when i'm having writer's block but the finished product rarely ends up sounding like the original idea because it tends to kickstart other ideas and those cascade into entirely new directions. xzzy posted:But I'm curious if someone with songwriting chops might wanna take some time to nitpick where the rookie mistakes are: https://soundcloud.com/mrxzzy/trickle-down-beat i am hesitant to say i have chops, but i think my main thoughts are that you have some good arrangement ideas which are too subtle, if that makes sense? like at 1:50ish and 2:15ish, you change up the arrangement a bit, but overall the energy level tends to stay around the same level. i think part of it is that you don't have a ton of different voices, so you're doubling up on the repetition of the structure with repetition of texture. i think the best bit is the filter opening up in the beginning, because it has the largest effect on the feeling of the song and sets up that building motion you mentioned. if i were to jump in and punch it up, i wouldn't necessarily change anything about the overall framework. instead, i'd add more layers playing the same parts you already have but try to differentiate them by picking sounds in different parts of the frequency spectrum. with that, you can drop things in and out without the groove falling apart. you could also mix things up with the vocal samples, playing with making them bigger or smaller on certain parts. i think what you have there is good, you just need more of it!
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Nov 24, 2022 01:03
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I write genre music regularly enough for a music competition, but it doesn't really captivate me. I'm working on an experimental piece where I've written a very simple score, and I improvise more and more layers on top of it.  Half the voices are red, and half are blue. When I record, I try to come up with an interesting sound and fit it between what I've recorded before. It's been an interesting exercise.
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Nov 24, 2022 01:52
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On a walk right now, listening to a WIP track and ruminating over it. I haven’t practiced my critiquing and editing skills. I have yet to internalize what a song or track could be, or what is subjectively “wrong” with it. Not that that means anything on its own, but I know that cutting is just as important as adding in the creative process, and I want to learn how to cut. I think this is why people write within genre so much. It answers all the couldas and shouldas. B33rChiller posted:For a bit of perspective, it is likely that the musicians you admire are exceptional, even amongst a group of people with significant experience and practice. Correct, there’s nothing wrong with not being exceptional. I do want to practice and get experience and Do A Good someday, but I have to get over being upset in anyway way over not being at point B. InternetOfTwinks posted:I prefer to think along the lines of: No-one starts out exceptional, it takes a lot of trying and failing and trying again to build up to that level. Good thing to internalize for all things in life in my experience. True, but if you’re putting in effort, you need to be mindful of putting in the right effort. It can’t be as simple as any effort at all, otherwise you end up like those webcomic artists who haven’t changed or improved since 2003. It’s fine if that’s what you’re going for, but I’m not. So if you wanna grow in a certain direction, ya gotta how to constructively and consistently try and fail. That’s the missing piece. CatBlack posted:Some rambling from a casual synth musician: drat, a song within 1 hour? Y’all are ducking machines, I’ve been working on a track since 11AM and I’ve still only got about a minute of useful material. I know there isn’t any certain amount of time it takes to “finish” a song, whatever that means, but someday I’d like to watch a master take a couple hours to get in the zone and see what makes them tick. Noise Machine posted:I have a theory on this, which is that no music you make will ever be as "objectively good" to you as music made by someone else. You don't see how the sausage is made when you listen to other people's music. It just comes out as this fully realized "thing" dripping out of your speakers or headphones. Fersure. I sure don’t know how everyone else does it, at least! Who knows, maybe I’m relatively fast. xzzy posted:Along the lines of that reagan song thing, the one I submitted is the first arrangement I've ever come close to finishing. I've done a handful of 3 minute "jams" over the years that might count as songs but listening to them now I really don't like them. So let's stick with the idea that my reagan track is my first ever song. Arrangement is basically Calvinball, yes. There are a few things people generally agree work well, but everything else that happens in arrangement isn’t any more complicated than “IDK it sounds good”. I used to think that was a problem that needed to be solved, but now I want to be at peace with the unknowable. I have no advice. Arranging is an art, not a science, and anything goes. quote:For the reagan song I went into it thinking I'd literally copy the structure of daft punk's 'around the world' (or more specifically, a live performance of it from their 2007 tour because that thing never stops building energy) and force myself to finish something. gently caress it, if it works it works. None of this really matters anyway, not even what you think matters, so just do it. One thing I absolutely hate about making music these days is how utterly afraid everyone is of “copying” or “stealing” something from other musicians. All this emphasis on IP and copyright has sheltered everyone in place and made collaboration and sharing knowledge difficult, if not fraught with legal landmines. I wish we could feel free to just say “yeah I tried making something like Daft Punk or The Prodigy or whatever” without either being called a fake musician or getting sued. quote:And I know no one's first anything is any good and their first 100 anythings probably won't be good either, song writing takes time and effort. Bolded is the exact situation I find myself in. Hello friend! 
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Nov 26, 2022 22:17
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CaptainViolence posted:i am hesitant to say i have chops, but i think my main thoughts are that you have some good arrangement ideas which are too subtle, if that makes sense? like at 1:50ish and 2:15ish, you change up the arrangement a bit, but overall the energy level tends to stay around the same level. i think part of it is that you don't have a ton of different voices, so you're doubling up on the repetition of the structure with repetition of texture. i think the best bit is the filter opening up in the beginning, because it has the largest effect on the feeling of the song and sets up that building motion you mentioned. This is something I haven't figured out yet, a lot of very successful artists can settle on a nice loop and chill there for a minute or longer. It's never completely static, they're twiddling filters or whatever, but they're still able to get some massive use out of a motif without boring anyone. 90's techno thrived on the concept.. it doesn't work as well these days I think but even the most chaotic songs are very good at keeping a single idea interesting for long periods. quote:if i were to jump in and punch it up, i wouldn't necessarily change anything about the overall framework. instead, i'd add more layers playing the same parts you already have but try to differentiate them by picking sounds in different parts of the frequency spectrum. with that, you can drop things in and out without the groove falling apart. you could also mix things up with the vocal samples, playing with making them bigger or smaller on certain parts. i think what you have there is good, you just need more of it! I did experiment with adding more layers, but this gets into the sound design problem which is probably another thread. Most of my attempts clashed horribly or turned the song into mush because every instrument was using up too much of the frequency range. So I'm glad this was pointed out, it's something I know I gotta figure out but it's not there yet. But it's nice I more or less got the basics okay. Hopefully the next one is better.
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Nov 27, 2022 23:24
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massive spider posted:I have a personal opinion that a lot of musicians are too fearful of writing within genre. The vast, vast majority of music created is iterations of what's gone before, and intended to follow certain feels, formats and genre traditions. Yeah, basically. No completely original music exists, it’s all derived from existing works even at the high level (e.g. favoring four-on-the-floor). quote:Musicians often hate talking about this, I suspect because it touches on something uncomfortable about the nature of originality. If you ask musicians to describe their stuff they'll hesitate, or pick a number of totally disparate things and say its a mix of all of them (and thus its own, unique thing). I notice a lot of the time when you read interviews with successful musicians though they dont have that squeamishness, they'll say "oh yeah that song is totally my tribute to [thing]" I have no proof of this, but I would not be surprised if a lot of music makers (and creative types in general) are deathly afraid of not being original enough. Afraid of being seen not as “X inspired by Y”, but “X = Y but worse”. Of being discounted out of hand as an inferior copy, instead of a natural derivation of many things. Let’s take me as an example. I don’t just want to make something in the style of Nine Inch Nails or Yuzo Koshiro because they already exist and if the listener wants to hear them they can just go straight to the source. I want to learn from them, sure, but i don’t want to be them - otherwise, what is the point of my creative existence? It’s also not understanding genre well enough to literally execute it. I could try and make music in the genre of acid house, techno, industrial, or game soundtrack, but I wouldn’t be “making acid house”, I’d be putting notes on paper and telling an instrument when to play them. IMO genres are descriptive, not prescriptive, and I can’t intentionally make music in a particular genre. I don’t work at that level. I can use a 303, I can sample dirt, and I can make a square wave wiggle, but I can’t make acid/industrial/chiptune. Acid, industrial, and chiptune make themselves. Just make music, think about how to make that music sound better, and tinker away at it. Eventually you will run out of time or get sick of it and you will be finished. The genre will come. Maybe that’s not a typical mindset, IDK. CaptainViolence posted:oh, i had forgotten about this, but this sort of thing was massively helpful for me to actually start writing songs! the covers we used to do for the rockstar competitions here were incredible for building the skill of picking apart how other songs were constructed, and from there i tried to write a few songs in the style of particular bands. one of the most important lessons my mentor ever taught me prior to his untimely demise was the phrase "the remix is infinite"—nothing we do is in a void, it is all informed on some level by what has come before and what we experience. the unique qualities come from having different ingredients and filtering them through ourselves. nothing solidified that better than realizing that even when i tried to write an original in someone else's style, my stink was all over it. once that idea was locked in, i felt a lot more freedom to just write and lean into different directions without any pressure to make it some perfect unique masterwork. i still write genre songs on a regular basis when i'm having writer's block but the finished product rarely ends up sounding like the original idea because it tends to kickstart other ideas and those cascade into entirely new directions. I’m liking how this all jives with the philosophy I’ve been reading recently. Good poo poo. quote:i am hesitant to say i have chops, but i think my main thoughts are that you have some good arrangement ideas which are too subtle, if that makes sense? like at 1:50ish and 2:15ish, you change up the arrangement a bit, but overall the energy level tends to stay around the same level. i think part of it is that you don't have a ton of different voices, so you're doubling up on the repetition of the structure with repetition of texture. i think the best bit is the filter opening up in the beginning, because it has the largest effect on the feeling of the song and sets up that building motion you mentioned. Agreed on varying your music in texture and timbre as well as structure. Not terribly simple, though. I make music with a tracker so maybe I’m biased, but one thing I have yet to internalize is not to be afraid of having “too many” tracks or voices. Yes, if they all play at the same time they step on each other’s toes, but there’s virtue in judiciously choosing which voices play when and why. I don’t have that down yet. (“Why” is one of the hardest questions to answer IME, because in a vacuum there is no why. So you have to put something down, and only then will you be able to answer why or why not.) quote:if i were to jump in and punch it up, i wouldn't necessarily change anything about the overall framework. instead, i'd add more layers playing the same parts you already have but try to differentiate them by picking sounds in different parts of the frequency spectrum. with that, you can drop things in and out without the groove falling apart. you could also mix things up with the vocal samples, playing with making them bigger or smaller on certain parts. i think what you have there is good, you just need more of it!  This is good advice, thank you!Music is often composed of many different harmonic/melodic ideas, or phrases. These phrases do not have to be played at the exact same time, by the exact same voice, or with the exact same role every time they show up. You can transform your bassline into a chord progression, you can transform your eurorack-sampled loop into a 1-bar intro, you can even turn your rhythm into your melody and vice versa. I have no idea how to do it well, but it IS fun to do. xzzy posted:This is something I haven't figured out yet, a lot of very successful artists can settle on a nice loop and chill there for a minute or longer. It's never completely static, they're twiddling filters or whatever, but they're still able to get some massive use out of a motif without boring anyone. 90's techno thrived on the concept.. it doesn't work as well these days I think but even the most chaotic songs are very good at keeping a single idea interesting for long periods. Intent matters. A lot of these worked because the music was designed to be danced to, and the music needed to be long and repetitive enough to get Compare house, techno, dubstep, and EDM to 80s pop rock, game soundtrack, and my own crap. The main reason so many artists can put together a long-rear end 6~10 minute track relatively quickly is because the biggest time and effort drain, coming up with new and harmonious musical ideas, is low priority. quote:I did experiment with adding more layers, but this gets into the sound design problem which is probably another thread. Most of my attempts clashed horribly or turned the song into mush because every instrument was using up too much of the frequency range. So I'm glad this was pointed out, it's something I know I gotta figure out but it's not there yet. It’s not easy, yeah. I’m down to workshop this poo poo out.
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Nov 28, 2022 17:31
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Hell ya know what??? I’m going to go ahead and say outright that people drat well SHOULD cover or transcribe+replicate their favorite songs and tracks. Even if they’re not yours, and even if what you make doesn’t meaningfully iterate on them, it’s worth it just for the sheer educational potential. You’re never going to be the person who made the original, so why be afraid of imitating them? It’s not going to be the same. I mean, what’s gonna happen? Soundcloud thinks its plagiarism and tries to take it down? Who cares! You already got what you wanted. The point is to
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Nov 28, 2022 17:44
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Putting a "reference track" at the top of your daw is a super common suggestion if you watch youtube videos on the topic. Everyone does it, though internet lawyers suggest that's infringement (they define a song arrangement differently than I do. I'll accept that the melody is part of the arrangement, but I only use the term to describe the song structure which I'm pretty sure cannot be copyrighted).
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Nov 28, 2022 18:08
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Verse, chorus, verse, verse, chorus. Original idea copyright ©️ B33rChiller 2022 do not steal
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Nov 28, 2022 18:12
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How do you know if music is good or bad? I think the biggest contributor to my angst and lack of confidence in my music stems from a lack of understanding. I don’t know if what I make is good music or bad music, and why. Hell, I can’t even tell if music I listen to is good music or bad music, just whether I like it or not. If you put a gun to my head and told me to justify a track I made to you, explain why I think it’s good, I honestly could not tell you. And that kinda fucks me up. I can critique my own meatloaf and some lovely app I made, but despite deeply enjoying music I can’t explain a drat bit of it. Very weird and something I need to think about. Pollyanna fucked around with this message at 15:15 on Dec 7, 2022 |
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Dec 7, 2022 01:20
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Pollyanna posted:Hell, I can’t even tell if music I listen to is good music or bad music, just whether I like it or not. I've been just going off this for now. Theory helps though.
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Dec 7, 2022 03:46
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Pollyanna posted:Hell, I can’t even tell if music I listen to is good music or bad music, just whether I like it or not. I think that's all you can do. Lord knows I've made and put out music that may not be "GOOD" but I definitely like it
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Dec 7, 2022 04:50
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Well, the feeling of whether or not music is good always comes first. The explanation of why it's good is post-hoc. Theory exists to help composers limit their choices down to a handful of things that historically work. But then you run into all kinds of situations where a composer didn't follow the theory, and the result was good anyway. Then the theory changes to account for it. I saw this the other day, and I think it's good enough advice to apply to most creative works. https://twitter.com/AKindAleWarTV/status/1588513170154749955
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Dec 7, 2022 13:21
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I was afraid of that. gently caress it none of this makes sense and never did and this is all just waving our dicks like reeds in the wind. Up is down, left is right, strange is charm, hardcore is listenable, whatever. Music is inherently unknowable and can only be described in terms of its effects on people. Dehumanize yourself and face to floating free. Iä, iä, motherfuckersSo Math posted:I saw this the other day, and I think it's good enough advice to apply to most creative works.
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Dec 7, 2022 21:11
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yeah, i think the nature of music being so subjective means that unless you are specifically writing genre like a pop hit-generating team with a ton of formula behind it, all you can do is write things you enjoy and that counts as good. whether or not someone else likes it is a little bit of a crap shoot, mostly because no matter what you do there's someone out there who likes it but may never hear it because there's millions of other songs competing for their attention and a lot of those have marketing teams. i struggled for a long time to write music i personally enjoyed, and once i finally did the feedback i got was almost always positive, but even that was only after struggling to get people to even listen in the first place. the alan moore video speaks to that pretty strongly, i think: only you can decide what you think is good, even if you still have to develop a vocabulary to describe what you do or don't like, and in the end as long as you've created something that's yours and you genuinely enjoy, you're on good footing.
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Dec 7, 2022 21:25
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Yeah. Like honestly I don’t expect anyone to explicitly seek out my music as it is right now, even if I were to be a “””known entity”””. Cuz like for me, music is at its most discoverable and at its most engaging and rewarding when it is part of a larger whole. A large chunk of what I like is impactful because of its context: pieces of soundtracks, the best tracks on concept albums, theme songs, stupid memey poo poo that’s really only notable because of a funny video. Music is also that which is not music, you can’t ignore that. Anyway, don’t expect music to  succeed (i.e. get views and popularity) on its own. It’s a lot more effective when it has a vehicle to ride on. Remix a streamer’s voice clips, make a parody, compose a boss theme, set your dipshit Tiktok dance to your own beats, something. At least it’ll be structure and constraint!Music wants a friend.
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Dec 7, 2022 21:40
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This is the arrangement and composition thread, so let’s talk arrangement and composition. I recently released (read: got sick of) a track, and put it up for feedback. No production passes, no mixing or mastering, just writing and some FX added here and there. https://on.soundcloud.com/cL78TRjYXNGoVzBF8 This feedback stuck with me: quote:I struggle to find a melody as the listener. It’s like a lot of notes but no theme that I can pick up on. Again, not sure if that’s what you are going for but usually as a listener I want a main theme, motif or something I can hum or sing along to that I look forward to. Just some thoughts. Cuz I know exactly what they’re talking about. You can play a bunch of loops and sequences over each other, but that doesn’t mean they play well with each other. It’s like a band where everyone’s doing their own thing instead of working together. You get a bag of notes instead of a song. I see that in a lot of my music - I use one specific scale and try and make loops that sound good against a single drumline, and that’s it. It always comes out unfocused and arbitrary, like there’s no plan and the whole thing is amateurishly improvised. Clearly I need to do more than that. I don’t know how, though; all those synth and gear videos don’t cover this. Now that I’m used to my DAW and voices/instruments, I need to practice weaving my writing together. It’s not like there’s a manual for this poo poo, and there’s no objective way to write, so I’m gonna have to reverse engineer it from music I like. That’ll be fun. I wanna see more videos about composing and arranging, and less videos about some new synth some influencer bought 
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Dec 8, 2022 18:16
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I mean this sincerely and not as a shitpost. How much humming/singing are you doing on your own, Polly? I've gotten down the rabbit hole of using computer-aided generators for chord progressions and parts, but I find once I have a building block I will just play back the "instrumental" (read - melody-less music blob) and just try to come up with something that sounds good from the top of my head. Some line that can just weave thru the parts like a laser beam, almost. I think this all comes back to the "if you can sing it, you can play it" mentality, but for me it's less about the technical aspect and more about "ok, let's take this melodic line I was just humming and actually put it to an instrument"
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Dec 8, 2022 18:37
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I absolutely hate the sound of my own voice, so I don’t. If I do sing it’s some shitposty garbage nonsense about how dumb or cute my cat is or how much I wanna take a nap or how frustrating some rando might be. I’ve thought about practicing vocals and recording hums/snippets, but I have to get over my hangups too or I’ll collapse into a pile of shame.
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Dec 8, 2022 18:42
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yeah you don't have to have any lyrics or semblance of coherent language, just purely melodic phrases. Unless you wanna sing about your cat, and there's nothing wrong with that. This is coming from A Bass Player for 20 years, and if there's any weak spot in my own musical journey/composition it absolutely is melody
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Dec 8, 2022 18:44
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